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Tony Hand

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On the subject of Hand: I think you have to take Slats with a grain of salt when he's talking about, 'what could have beens'.

I have read quotes from him in the past about how the Oilers were, 'just about' to take Fleury and Bure before Calgary and Vancouver did. Yeah, the worst drafting team of the era had two huge steals on their radar. . . :shakehead

I think he just does it because he knows its a good story. I mean. . . better hockey sense than Kurri? Really?
 
Stray Wasp said:
In 96-97 Ken Hodge Jnr. (once a 30-goal scorer in the NHL), scored 16 goals and 29 assists in 34 BISL games. Make of that what you will.


In a sense, the remarkable thing about Hand is that he should have had a natural talent so far ahead of his fellow Brits.
Click to expand...

I said this same thing earlier.

It really doesn't matter how shiny of a diamond he may have been. The fact that a diamond came from THAT rough is incredible. It speaks of massive natural ability. It's like finding someone with a competent array of boxing skills, honed in the jungles of Borneo against monkeys.
 
tombombadil said:
I said this same thing earlier.

It really doesn't matter how shiny of a diamond he may have been. The fact that a diamond came from THAT rough is incredible. It speaks of massive natural ability. It's like finding someone with a competent array of boxing skills, honed in the jungles of Borneo against monkeys.
Click to expand...

Monkeys are friggin' tough. If you can box a monkey, you're legit IMO.
 
Stray Wasp said:
In 96-97 Ken Hodge Jnr. (once a 30-goal scorer in the NHL), scored 16 goals and 29 assists in 34 BISL games. Make of that what you will.

You'll notice that after 95-96, the British Hockey League became the Super League. Money flooded in (relatively speaking), and, coupled with the Bosman ruling, it became easier to sign imports. Teams had greater depth and quality, so players enjoyed shorter shifts and the game speeded up a little. Scoring plummeted, because defending and goaltending improved. Hand was 29 by then, and he found it harder to adapt to the new circumstances, having previously played 45+ minutes per night game in, game out. But adapt he did, and he was second in scoring in the 97-98 season. This while most of his compatriots were either warming benches or dropping into the second tier to find playing time.

Too much emphasis can't be placed on the fact that British hockey circa 81-96 simply wasn't fit for producing NHL-calibre players. Teams practiced a couple of times a week (usually late at night, because most players were amateur or semi-pro and hockey teams had to fit around ice skating activities at rinks) and played on weekends. Pretty much every North American who came to Britain had had enormous developmental advantages over Hand, regardless of their skill set. Hand said that the intensive practicing and playing schedules of North America exhausted him.

In a sense, the remarkable thing about Hand is that he should have had a natural talent so far ahead of his fellow Brits.
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I agree that different players fair differently under different circumstances but one thing I can't understand is how a player who only managed to lead the british league in scoring three or four times (as you said) could be argued as being good compared to NHLers.

That is not very impressive. It means he was consistently beaten by brits. This to me makes it hard to understand the hype. Sure he had an developmental disadvantage but it seems he did not develop that far ahead of the other brits. But I am willing to hear arguments since you seem knowledgeble on the subject.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Hockey_Annual_Trophy

I can find his stats, and his team's stats on hockeydb, but i can't find league scoring stats.

Anyways, if that link even works, it is the trophy for the leading British scorer. He won 7 of them, out of 9 years it was awarded, and this is after his prime. Without knowing for sure, I think he was nearly always the top Brit, and often the top scorer overall, losing to Canadians when he lost.
 
tombombadil said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Hockey_Annual_Trophy

I can find his stats, and his team's stats on hockeydb, but i can't find league scoring stats.

Anyways, if that link even works, it is the trophy for the leading British scorer. He won 7 of them, out of 9 years it was awarded, and this is after his prime. Without knowing for sure, I think he was nearly always the top Brit, and often the top scorer overall, losing to Canadians when he lost.
Click to expand...

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=20964

Just click the little arrow next to the league name for whichever season you want to see.
 
tombombadil said:
I said this same thing earlier.

It really doesn't matter how shiny of a diamond he may have been. The fact that a diamond came from THAT rough is incredible. It speaks of massive natural ability. It's like finding someone with a competent array of boxing skills, honed in the jungles of Borneo against monkeys.
Click to expand...

$%28KGrHqJ,!iQE7DVgGQ28BO1tLSlqFw~~60_35.JPG


Monkeys? Orangutangs rule.

Still makes you wonder what could have been with Hand though.
 
Uncle Rotter said:
But would being outscored by Garry Unger be worse than being outscored by Rick Fera?
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Good question. No doubt that Fera outscored several people who, on paper, he shouldn't have, Unger and Hand not the least. He was a couple of years Hand's senior, and after he left Murrayfield Hand upped his scoring.

British hockey has its fair share of anomalies. In 88-89, Vincent Lukac, who was then 34 but, lest we forget, a frequent top ten scorer in the Czechoslovak league and once a Golden Stick winner, joined Fife Flyers. For a linemate, Lukac had Jindrich Kokrment, who'd been a Czechoslovakian top ten scorer too and another Czech, Milan Figala, played defense.

Kokrment didn't make the top ten scorers that season. Lukac's fifth place finish trailed in 51 points behind Hand, who led the league in assists but fell six short of Rick Brebant points wise (playing one game fewer). Murrayfield's import forwards were Luc Beausoleil (who'd enjoyed a couple of prolific seasons in the QMJHL) and Louis Haman (who had no scoring pedigree whatsoever).

Talking of teammates, its worth mentioning that for several years the Racers lacked an offensive defenseman to complement Hand.
 
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Uncle Rotter said:
GB started loading up with Canadians in 1990, which led to their quick rise to the A pool.
1990- 6
1991- 6
1992- 8
1993-10
1994-15

By contrast, I've only been able to find 2 Canadians playing for GB between 1953 & 1990.
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GB certainly wouldn't have made Pool A without the dual nationals, but in the long term, that promotion served British hockey no use whatsoever.
 
tombombadil said:
I said this same thing earlier.

It really doesn't matter how shiny of a diamond he may have been. The fact that a diamond came from THAT rough is incredible. It speaks of massive natural ability. It's like finding someone with a competent array of boxing skills, honed in the jungles of Borneo against monkeys.
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, Hand's brother Paul played too. He was a nuts and bolts defenseman, nothing more.
 
tombombadil said:
Here you go, Pluppe

http://www.coppernblue.com/2012/9/2...y-september-20-1981-tony-hand-makes-his-debut

it was more impressive than I had guessed.

He was the ONLY Brit to take scoring titles away from the Canadians in that league, and was nearly ALWAYS the top Brit, by a mile. 15 years at top 10 in scoring in a league dominated by AHL and CHL-bred Canadians.
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By my reckoning, he has 20 top ten finishes in the "elite" tier of British hockey, and he finished as top British-trained scorer (ignoring Canadian-reared players with British passports) 22 times. From 2001 to 2004 he played in the second tier.

Between 84-85 and 94-95, his margin of victory over the second placed Brit were as follows (all stats for league season only). Bolded figures indicate that the second placed Brit was Hand's teammate, Scot Neil.

61, 61, 92, 64, 89, 41, 49, 40, 77, 104, 84

The stats for 95-96 aren't complete, but he was 48 ahead of the nearest competitor I could confirm.
 
beauchamp said:
Tony Hand very rarely lead the BHL in goals/assists/points.

I just verified 1993-94, the year when he had the most points in his career.

The highest scoring team had 485 goals in 44 games, an average of 11 goals a game.

The worst defensive team had 743 goals scored against them, an average of almost 17 goals per game.

That's the league where Gary Unger finished his career.

At the age of 39, he finished with an average of almost 8 points a game for the season: 30 games - 95 goals - 143 assists - 238 points.

Source: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=5518
Click to expand...

...and to think that we wasted all that time cheering for that bum Gretzky !!! :laugh:
 
I was looking at this player on EliteProspects recently, Tony Hand at eliteprospects.com
5'10, 181 lbs and was apparently a really damn good scottish hockey player, 200+ Points on 4 different occasions in 35-40 GP!
This guy never played in the NHL, but played 3 games in the WHL, and played very well. Seems like a good what if NHLer...

I wanted to discuss this player, who he was, how good he was, and what if he played in the NHL, and could he have been a star?

-BlueBull
 
Hand will always be a legend for those numbers.

A couple of things. Even though his numbers were crazy, they were often not that far ahead of others on the leaderboard. 1987, his 216 were actually second to Rick Fera's 242. 1988, his 192 left him in third place behind Fera and Scott Morrison. 1989, 212 was only good enough for second behind Rick Brebant. In 1993, he finally won the scoring title for the first time, squeaking out a 185-182 race with Chris Palmer. In 1994, he got the scoring crown with 222 but his lead was still only 11 over Palmer (11 being about 2 games' worth of points to these guys).

It's actually pretty shocking to consider that Hand put up goofy numbers every year, but only won 4 scoring titles. Those games must have been a ****show of 10-9 games or something.

Also, don't read too much into the WHL stats. Hand was 20 when he made that cameo, and scoring in the 1980s was bonkers. Numerous players cranking out 2.0-2.5 points per game despite having limited/nonexistent NHL futures ahead of them. Even if he had sustained those numbers over the course of a full season, it still wouldn't have guaranteed much. Len Nielsen had three consecutive 100+ point seasons including 136 in 72 games that season as a 20 year old... he never even got drafted!
 
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Yeah, what tarheelhockey said... Hand is one of the most overrated "whatif" guys ever, due to the crap quality of the league he played in.

These days he'd probably the kind of guy who might eke out a career in Switzerland.
 
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