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Tony Hand

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Regular David Bruce said:
Yeah, what tarheelhockey said... Hand is one of the most overrated "whatif" guys ever, due to the crap quality of the league he played in.

These days he'd probably the kind of guy who might eke out a career in Switzerland.
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You could say that about a lot of players from the 1980s, the game has changed.
tarheelhockey said:
Hand will always be a legend for those numbers.

A couple of things. Even though his numbers were crazy, they were often not that far ahead of others on the leaderboard. 1987, his 216 were actually second to Rick Fera's 242. 1988, his 192 left him in third place behind Fera and Scott Morrison. 1989, 212 was only good enough for second behind Rick Brebant. In 1993, he finally won the scoring title for the first time, squeaking out a 185-182 race with Chris Palmer. In 1994, he got the scoring crown with 222 but his lead was still only 11 over Palmer (11 being about 2 games' worth of points to these guys).

It's actually pretty shocking to consider that Hand put up goofy numbers every year, but only won 4 scoring titles. Those games must have been a ****show of 10-9 games or something.

Also, don't read too much into the WHL stats. Hand was 20 when he made that cameo, and scoring in the 1980s was bonkers. Numerous players cranking out 2.0-2.5 points per game despite having limited/nonexistent NHL futures ahead of them. Even if he had sustained those numbers over the course of a full season, it still wouldn't have guaranteed much. Len Nielsen had three consecutive 100+ point seasons including 136 in 72 games that season as a 20 year old... he never even got drafted!
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Hand Could have definitely made the NHL, however, and he would have, imo. (Turned down an offer from the Oilers in 1986 due to homesickness.)
 
I see no reason to think that he could have been a star. Extremely unlikely. Could he have played in the NHL? Possibly, as that is a far lower threshold, but I doubt that he could have stuck.
 
BlueBull said:
Hand Could have definitely made the NHL, however, and he would have, imo. (Turned down an offer from the Oilers in 1986 due to homesickness.)
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An offer to play in the minors. You're right though, Sather did have good things to say about him and called him "a prospect". But although he may have had a skill set that could have taken him to the NHL eventually, he certainly didn't have the mental makeup.
 
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I remember The Hockey News did a big story on him in the '80s (at least I think it was THN), so I'd always heard about him, but never saw him play.

What was his skating like?
 
Regular David Bruce said:
An offer to play in the minors. You're right though, Sather did have good things to say about him and called him "a prospect". But although he may have had a skill set that could have taken him to the NHL eventually, he certainly didn't have the mental makeup.
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I wonder what impact it would have had on hockey in the UK. The European movement was happening around that period of time, and a Scottish Born and (Probably) Trained NHL Player might have been all that would be needed for the hockey market in the UK.
 
BlueBull said:
Hand Could have definitely made the NHL, however, and he would have, imo. (Turned down an offer from the Oilers in 1986 due to homesickness.)
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I don't see any particular reason to think he had a better shot at the NHL than his peers who put up similar numbers and never made it. Hand was a native-born Scottish star in a league full of Canadians who came up through the junior system and then had to go to an obscure league to keep playing. If they couldn't make it, why would Hand?

The one thing Hand had going for him was his age, being younger than most of the post-junior aged imports. I suppose we'll never really know what would have happened if he had moved to Canada at 16. All we can say is that his 3-game WHL cameo was as an overager.

Maybe the most hopeful WHL comparison we can make would be Brent Gilchrist, a player of similar age who also scored well over 2PPG that season. Gilchrist ended up being a mid-round hit because he stopped trying to be a star scorer and converted into a high-energy checking winger at the NHL level. It's kind of hard to see Hand taking that path, given his stature and skill set, though I guess we can't say it would have been impossible. More likely he would have simply been an AHL fixture.

BlueBull said:
I wonder what impact it would have had on hockey in the UK. The European movement was happening around that period of time, and a Scottish Born and (Probably) Trained NHL Player might have been all that would be needed for the hockey market in the UK.
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How much attention did he get in the UK? Did people outside of the small local hockey community know who Tony Hand was?
 
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tarheelhockey said:
I don't see any particular reason to think he had a better shot at the NHL than his peers who put up similar numbers and never made it. Hand was a native-born Scottish star in a league full of Canadians who came up through the junior system and then had to go to an obscure league to keep playing. If they couldn't make it, why would Hand?

The one thing Hand had going for him was his age, being younger than most of the post-junior aged imports. I suppose we'll never really know what would have happened if he had moved to Canada at 16. All we can say is that his 3-game WHL cameo was as an overager.

Maybe the most hopeful WHL comparison we can make would be Brent Gilchrist, a player of similar age who also scored well over 2PPG that season. Gilchrist ended up being a mid-round hit because he stopped trying to be a star scorer and converted into a high-energy checking winger at the NHL level. It's kind of hard to see Hand taking that path, given his stature and skill set, though I guess we can't say it would have been impossible. More likely he would have simply been an AHL fixture.



How much attention did he get in the UK? Did people outside of the small local hockey community know who Tony Hand was?
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Tony Hand played just enough WHL hockey to create interest and assure himself a high British League salary for the rest of his career.
 
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tarheelhockey said:
I don't see any particular reason to think he had a better shot at the NHL than his peers who put up similar numbers and never made it. Hand was a native-born Scottish star in a league full of Canadians who came up through the junior system and then had to go to an obscure league to keep playing. If they couldn't make it, why would Hand?

The one thing Hand had going for him was his age, being younger than most of the post-junior aged imports. I suppose we'll never really know what would have happened if he had moved to Canada at 16. All we can say is that his 3-game WHL cameo was as an overager.

Maybe the most hopeful WHL comparison we can make would be Brent Gilchrist, a player of similar age who also scored well over 2PPG that season. Gilchrist ended up being a mid-round hit because he stopped trying to be a star scorer and converted into a high-energy checking winger at the NHL level. It's kind of hard to see Hand taking that path, given his stature and skill set, though I guess we can't say it would have been impossible. More likely he would have simply been an AHL fixture.



How much attention did he get in the UK? Did people outside of the small local hockey community know who Tony Hand was?
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Hand was not an overager when he played in the WHL. It was his 19-year-old season.

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One interesting thing to note is that he only played in the top level World Championships once - when he was 26 years old, and he scored zero points in 6 games (a year when Sundin, Kariya, Koivu were the 3 top scorers). We shouldn't necessarily read too much into this (especially because presumably his teammates were of relatively low quality), but he certainly always put up lots of points at the lower levels.

But whether or not he could've played in the NHL is an unknown. Comparing him to other players doesn't tell you everything you need to know. Of course, a smart hockey person who saw him play a few times would have a better idea of the quality of his play. For those of us who never saw him play, it's total speculation.
 
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Staniowski said:
Hand was not an g when he played in the WHL. It was his 19-year-old season.
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Not an overager, but solidly 2 years older than the draft aged prospects that year (e.g., his 8/67 birthdate vs Joe Sakic’s 7/69).

But whether or not he could've played in the NHL is an unknown. Comparing him to other players doesn't tell you everything you need to know. Of course, a smart hockey person who saw him play a few times would have a better idea of the quality of his play. For those of us who never saw him play, it's total speculation.
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I think the fact that he wasn’t drafted till the very last pick in a 12-round draft, didn’t get offered a contract out of training camp in Calgary, got offered a junior contract out of training camp in Edmonton, and offered one last shot at the AHL before being forgotten, tells us how he was viewed as a prospect. He was a long shot, treated as a long shot.

To emphasize the key point about this player — Tony Hand is not famous because he put up 200pt seasons in the BHL. A lot of no-name players did that, and nobody remembers them.

What makes Hand famous is that he never left the BHL... he stuck around putting up those 200pt seasons over and over, whereas his peers moved on to college or other Euro countries or back to Canada. So while his peers have one or two dominant BHL seasons followed by irrelevance in other places, Hand has goofy career numbers that look like a video game addict’s pride and joy. If not for that career accumulation, he’d just be another on a list of obscure players... but the huge numbers give him cult status, like the Scottish Trevor Jobe.
 
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tarheelhockey said:
Not an overager, but solidly 2 years older than the draft aged prospects that year (e.g., his 8/67 birthdate vs Joe Sakic’s 7/69).



I think the fact that he wasn’t drafted till the very last pick in a 12-round draft, didn’t get offered a contract out of training camp in Calgary, got offered a junior contract out of training camp in Edmonton, and offered one last shot at the AHL before being forgotten, tells us how he was viewed as a prospect. He was a long shot, treated as a long shot.

To emphasize the key point about this player — Tony Hand is not famous because he put up 200pt seasons in the BHL. A lot of no-name players did that, and nobody remembers them.

What makes Hand famous is that he never left the BHL... he stuck around putting up those 200pt seasons over and over, whereas his peers moved on to college or other Euro countries or back to Canada. So while his peers have one or two dominant BHL seasons followed by irrelevance in other places, Hand has goofy career numbers that look like a video game addict’s pride and joy. If not for that career accumulation, he’d just be another on a list of obscure players... but the huge numbers give him cult status, like the Scottish Trevor Jobe.
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I don't really disagree with what you're saying. My guess is that he probably wouldn't have been able to play in the NHL. But it's still an unknown, especially to someone like me who never saw him play. We can't completely rule it out.
 
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JackSlater said:
I see no reason to think that he could have been a star. Extremely unlikely. Could he have played in the NHL? Possibly, as that is a far lower threshold, but I doubt that he could have stuck.
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Yeah agreed. Lightning up the scottish league isnt exactly a high bar.
 
I've heard a bit about him. Seems like he was quite the player. Not sure how going from playing in a league in Britian would have translated to the NHL though.
 
still think he could have put up 60-70 pts a season playing in the NHL during the 80s

yes, he was putting up 200+ pts in the british league which was basically a high level beer league during the 80s but it still takes a pretty high amount of skill to be able to score that much consistently
 
BlueBull said:
Hand Could have definitely made the NHL, however, and he would have, imo. (Turned down an offer from the Oilers in 1986 due to homesickness.)
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The guy was a 12th round draft pick. And he was the final pick of the 12th round and the final pick of 1986 draft. It seems like a huge stretch to say he could have possibly cracked the NHL let alone to claim he "definitely" could have.
 
BlueBull said:
You could say that about a lot of players from the 1980s, the game has changed.

Hand Could have definitely made the NHL, however, and he would have, imo. (Turned down an offer from the Oilers in 1986 due to homesickness.)
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There was more to it then being home sick. He commented on the overall pace of the dames and practices made him tired
 
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