Player Discussion Tony DeAngelo (MOD WARNINGS: Post #12/#900)

[eco's bones]

I'm thinking it's kind of a group of 11D who will be competing for a spot.

Skjei, Shattenkirk, Staal, Smith, ADA, Pionk, Claesson, Kampfer, O'Gara, Gilmour, Bigas

Out of those Pionk, Gilmour, O'Gara are waiver exempt. Whether we like it or not waivers are something a team has to factor in.

Similarly not letting developing players become the default scratch is another factor.

They likely will hope some of the vet NHLers can increase their trade value even if that may be far fetched.

I assume they keep 8 defenders on the NHL roster. Until camp/preseason I don't think any of them are locks except Skjei, Shattenkirk.

Not including injury or a trade

I assume if Smith and Staal are viable they stay up

I don't think they are going to waive ADA and they will want to see Pionk at the NHL level again.

I think Claesson, Kampfer are the players they are not thinking it hurts them to be scratches

Bigas is waiver eligible, if he plays well enough I'm not sure if they take that chance, I assume they would rather risk Kampfer to waivers but it will depend on the play of Bigas and if they think he will just be scratched anyway.

Gilmour, O'Gara are waiver exempt, I think they'd really have to wow them or have someone else really disappoint to make it, but if either or both does impress enough I assume it is somewhat possible they bump Claesson, Kampfer, maybe even Staal, Smith, or even Pionk out but I think that is a sort of a remote possibility, and again if they are only going to end up the scratches it's not really helping them improve.

A lot of good points here but I just don't see the Rangers carrying 8 D and IMO there's a chance that Hajek or Lindgren make the team out of camp too. Also Staal will make the team. He's virtually untradeable with an NMC (which means even if the Rangers wanted to send him to Hartford he'd have to approve it) and beyond that he will be looked at as a main penalty killing D. His size and reach can still be effective in strictly defensive situations. We could buy him out though.

The thing with 8 D is finding the ice time for two extra players and if they're younger they'll need to play. If it comes to someone like DeAngelo passing through waivers--they'll probably try to trade him.

 

[Off Sides]

A lot of good points here but I just don't see the Rangers carrying 8 D and IMO there's a chance that Hajek or Lindgren make the team out of camp too. Also Staal will make the team. He's virtually untradeable with an NMC (which means even if the Rangers wanted to send him to Hartford he'd have to approve it) and beyond that he will be looked at as a main penalty killing D. His size and reach can still be effective in strictly defensive situations. We could buy him out though.

The thing with 8 D is finding the ice time for two extra players and if they're younger they'll need to play. If it comes to someone like DeAngelo passing through waivers--they'll probably try to trade him.

Good point on Staal, unless traded, an approved trade on his part, he will make the team. I think the buyouts options are over for this summer.

I think they will carry 8D mostly because of the players they have to waive to carry only 7. (I feel the same for the forwards, I think those who can be sent down without waivers are more likely to not make the roster initially unless the prospects wow, or the "vets" really disappoint)

I think the other prospects, the ones who have more time left on the entry level contracts will be in the AHL, partly because I don't know if they are ready, and partly because they'd have to waive more players to keep them up.

Trades are, I guess possible yet they are kind of few and far between.

 

[silverfish]

Here's how I see it between Gilmour and Pionk, and it applies to ADA, as well.

People who crushed their usage last year (small sample size):
Gilmour, ADA

People who got crushed by their usage last year (small sample size):
Pionk

I can't say that with an increase in role, that Gilmour and ADA continue to perform at that level. I also can't say that with a decrease in role, Pionk's numbers get better. If I could predict the future, then I wouldn't be posting on HFNYR.

But I think people really overrate what Pionk did last year. His underlying numbers in terms of driving offense were, in a word, terrible.

 

[nyr2k2]

Here's how I see it between Gilmour and Pionk, and it applies to ADA, as well.

People who crushed their usage last year (small sample size):
Gilmour, ADA

People who got crushed by their usage last year (small sample size):
Pionk

I can't say that with an increase in role, that Gilmour and ADA continue to perform at that level. I also can't say that with a decrease in role, Pionk's numbers get better. If I could predict the future, then I wouldn't be posting on HFNYR.

But I think people really overrate what Pionk did last year. His underlying numbers in terms of driving offense were, in a word, terrible.

I love your persistence, man, but literally nothing here is news to anyone. I'm pretty sure everyone is aware at this point that Pionk out-performed his underlying stats and Gilmour/ADA under-performed relative to their underlying stats. I don't think it's changing anyone's mind.

I liked what I saw with Pionk. I like that he'd play 25 minutes as a true rookie and not look overwhelmed by the task. I don't care about the offensive numbers he produced and whether or not they should be chalked up to luck. I also like how he looked in the WC, albeit in a limited role. He looks like a real keeper, to me.

As you said, everything is SSS, and under weird contextual conditions at that. I'd bet dollars to donuts the numbers for Pionk align much more closely with the "eye test" this season.

 

[mrmovies779]

Here's how I see it between Gilmour and Pionk, and it applies to ADA, as well.

People who crushed their usage last year (small sample size):
Gilmour, ADA

People who got crushed by their usage last year (small sample size):
Pionk

I can't say that with an increase in role, that Gilmour and ADA continue to perform at that level. I also can't say that with a decrease in role, Pionk's numbers get better. If I could predict the future, then I wouldn't be posting on HFNYR.

But I think people really overrate what Pionk did last year. His underlying numbers in terms of driving offense were, in a word, terrible.

True about Pionk,but he was also playing minutes he shouldnt have been playing against other teams top lines.The kid was basically thrown into the fire but some here seem to ignore that(not directed towards you).I think this year will be a much better barometer of what type of player he will be.New system,coach and Shattenkirk back should take away alot of those tough minutes and match ups

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

True about Pionk,but he was also playing minutes he shouldnt have been playing against other teams top lines.The kid was basically thrown into the fire but some here seem to ignore that(not directed towards you).I think this year will be a much better barometer of what type of player he will be.

He was also paired with Staal.

Regular Staal would have been bad enough, but it was with Post Nashville cheap shot Staal.

 

[silverfish]

I love your persistence, man, but literally nothing here is news to anyone. I'm pretty sure everyone is aware at this point that Pionk out-performed his underlying stats and Gilmour/ADA under-performed relative to their underlying stats. I don't think it's changing anyone's mind.

I liked what I saw with Pionk. I like that he'd play 25 minutes as a true rookie and not look overwhelmed by the task. I don't care about the offensive numbers he produced and whether or not they should be chalked up to luck. I also like how he looked in the WC, albeit in a limited role. He looks like a real keeper, to me.

As you said, everything is SSS, and under weird contextual conditions at that. I'd bet dollars to donuts the numbers for Pionk align much more closely with the "eye test" this season.

Maybe!

 

[nyr2k2]

True about Pionk,but he was also playing minutes he shouldnt have been playing against other teams top lines.The kid was basically thrown into the fire but some here seem to ignore that(not directed towards you).I think this year will be a much better barometer of what type of player he will be.New system,coach and Shattenkirk back should take away alot of those tough minutes

Yes, he was an NCAA rookie who could/should have been hitting a rookie wall. Instead he stepped right into huge minutes and the toughest match ups he had faced in his life by far.

Prior to last year, the most games had played were 54 in a USHL season against kids. Then, after playing 40-something games in two years of college, he plays 48 of the hardest games of his life in the AHL before stepping into the aforementioned circumstances in the NHL.

Again, given the totality of the circumstances, the "advanced" stats from 28 NHL games don't concern me. (I'm not mocking advanced stats; I just think that hockey's advanced stats aren't that advanced)

 

[silverfish]

He was also paired with Staal.

Regular Staal would have been bad enough, but it was with Post Nashville cheap shot Staal.

Staal was better away from Pionk than Pionk was away from Staal. For context, Staal's next most-popular partner was Shattenkirk, and Pionk's was Skjei.

Again, I mean, we're def working with small sample sizes. And the fact that Pionk even played in the NHL this year is a minor miracle, but I think, at least my eye-test matches up with the metrics a lot more than other peoples' eye-test seems to. That's totally okay.

I think we're going to see a very overwhelmed Pionk this year and most people think it's just a sophomore slump and I think it's just more of what we've already seen. I hope I'm wrong and everyone else is right.

 

[eco's bones]

Staal was better away from Pionk than Pionk was away from Staal. For context, Staal's next most-popular partner was Shattenkirk, and Pionk's was Skjei.

Again, I mean, we're def working with small sample sizes. And the fact that Pionk even played in the NHL this year is a minor miracle, but I think, at least my eye-test matches up with the metrics a lot more than other peoples' eye-test seems to. That's totally okay.

I think we're going to see a very overwhelmed Pionk this year and most people think it's just a sophomore slump and I think it's just more of what we've already seen. I hope I'm wrong and everyone else is right.

In those last 3 weeks or so of the season where Pionk's minutes climbed and he got all the toughest matchups---he matched against Crosby, Malkin, Panarin, Ovechkin, Tavares, Tarasenko, Giroux, Stamkos, Kucherov, Hall etc, etc. The Rangers played against all those players in that stretch. Those players and their lines were absolutely going to dominate control of the puck no matter who the Rangers matched up against them. We had a depleted lineup and Pionk was the least experienced player we used to match against the other teams best players. IMO-he did really well. We did not see DeAngelo get those matchups--he was injured in game 70. Maybe if he had stayed healthy he would have but AV the entire year was careful who he matched ADA against and was very reluctant to use him in strictly defensive situations such as penalty kill or protecting leads late in games--so it's speculation at best that ADA would have been thrown to the lions like Pionk was.

Pionk I suspect is going to have issues--maybe even be overwhelmed but I suspect the same if not worse with others including DeAngelo. One thing though I don't think that Pionk is going to be the night in night out shut down RD for us--at least it will be shared depending on who the other RD are. Shattenkirk in the lineup should take some pressure off of him and if Smith is a regular on the right side that will too.

It will be a younger team this coming year with a new coaching staff--apart from Ruff. That coaching staff will do what it does and some of what it does might not be all that different from what AV and his coaching staff did. It's a wait and see but basically Pionk and ADA are the two prime candidates for a very open 2RD spot and we'll see if either claims it. I would say though that whoever does is going to have to be pretty decent in defensive situations--penalty killing etc. They might not always get those toughest matchups but there will be times that they do.

 

[silverfish]

In those last 3 weeks or so of the season where Pionk's minutes climbed and he got all the toughest matchups---he matched against Crosby, Malkin, Panarin, Ovechkin, Tavares, Tarasenko, Giroux, Stamkos, Kucherov, Hall etc, etc. The Rangers played against all those players in that stretch. Those players and their lines were absolutely going to dominate control of the puck no matter who the Rangers matched up against them. We had a depleted lineup and Pionk was the least experienced player we used to match against the other teams best players. IMO-he did really well. We did not see DeAngelo get those matchups--he was injured in game 70. Maybe if he had stayed healthy he would have but AV the entire year was careful who he matched ADA against and was very reluctant to use him in strictly defensive situations such as penalty kill or protecting leads late in games--so it's speculation at best that ADA would have been thrown to the lions like Pionk was.

Pionk I suspect is going to have issues--maybe even be overwhelmed but I suspect the same if not worse with others including DeAngelo. One thing though I don't think that Pionk is going to be the night in night out shut down RD for us--at least it will be shared depending on who the other RD are. Shattenkirk in the lineup should take some pressure off of him and if Smith is a regular on the right side that will too.

It will be a younger team this coming year with a new coaching staff--apart from Ruff. That coaching staff will do what it does and some of what it does might not be all that different from what AV and his coaching staff did. It's a wait and see but basically Pionk and ADA are the two prime candidates for a very open 2RD spot and we'll see if either claims it. I would say though that whoever does is going to have to be pretty decent in defensive situations--penalty killing etc. They might not always get those toughest matchups but there will be times that they do.

Pionk played:

6:54 against Crosby
9:28 against Malkin
5:15 against Panarin
13:00 against Ovie
16:34 against Tavares
2:42 against Tarasenko
22:04 against Giroux
14:15 against Stamkos
16:48 against Kucherov
6:43 against Hall
etc. etc.

Qual comp is important, but qual teammates is much more important.

Neal Pionk - Opposition - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

 

[Off Sides]

I see Poink as sort of a Troy Stecher, probably because their background and size are relatively similar, both undrafted RD.

Other than to say I think they both seem to have NHL capabilities, I'm not quite ready to form a complete opinion on either even if Stecher has played two near full NHL seasons already.

Mostly I just get glimpses of seeing something there from Poink that leads me to think he'll make it as a NHLer yet I'm not sure if that is depth, 3rd pair or even maybe a mid 2nd pair level.

ADA I get less of a sense he is going to make it, yet if he does I think he has a higher ceiling of perhaps a high end 2nd pair player but would not be surprised to see him just not make it as whatever it is I see in him does not seem to be translating easily at all.

Not sure if that makes any sense.

 

[mrmovies779]

Pionk played:

6:54 against Crosby
9:28 against Malkin
5:15 against Panarin
13:00 against Ovie
16:34 against Tavares
2:42 against Tarasenko
22:04 against Giroux
14:15 against Stamkos
16:48 against Kucherov
6:43 against Hall
etc. etc.

Qual comp is important, but qual teammates is much more important.

Neal Pionk - Opposition - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

He was still being force fed tough matchups,top 6 players on a nightly basis.Its not surprising his advanced stats werent that good.

 

[silverfish]

He was still being force fed tough matchups,top 6 players on a nightly basis.Its not surprising his advanced stats werent that good.

Okay but there's "not good" and there's "terrible".

Anyway, yeah. Sorry for driving this thread OT. Agree to disagree. Let's see what he does this year with more of a sample

 

[NYRFANMANI]

We're going to criticize Gilmour's lack of physicality while comparing him to Marc Staal's cotton ass?

Not only that, I'll also criticize his utter vanillaness. He can simply skate that's it, not even close to being talented enough to be a viable player for us in the coming years. At LD he's in the bottom half of a pretty stacked depth-chart.

Mark Staal at least has a big body, he's automatically harder to knock of the puck, he's much more experienced, one of the faces of the team.
He practically gave an eye for this team.

Sure if you want to tank that bad, play Gilmour over Staal whatever, but don't kid yourself Gilmour will be in Europe in 2 years.

Anyhow, since this is the ADA thread, I'll mention him at least.

ADA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gilmour

 

[Tawnos]

Okay but there's "not good" and there's "terrible".

Anyway, yeah. Sorry for driving this thread OT. Agree to disagree. Let's see what he does this year with more of a sample

And hopefully progression. I liked Pionk last year, but I wouldn't exactly take that and call him a top-4 D... or even necessarily an NHL D.

This is something we all need to keep in mind. It's not about a small sample for DeAngelo or Pionk. It's about what potential growth they have. If Pionk's numbers improve, it's not only that last year's were the result of a small sample size. That's not even the most important factor. It's that the player himself improved. Which is not completely unheard of for young players.

 

[NernieBichols]

When Quinn was hired, it was my expectation he was brought in to make sure Skjei, vesey, Pionk get better and to make sure buchnevich and deangelo max out their potential. DeAngelo should be quinn’s pet.

Rangers go 8 deep bc of waiver and financial flexibility to do so.
In no specific order necessarily, bc I think it will a lot depend on matchups of each game which pairing get what mins and which forwards lines they play with

Skjei-deangelo
Staal-Shattenkirk
Smith-Pionk

Claussen and kampfer extras

Gilmour, O’Gara, Hajek, Lindgren waiver eligible

Bigas total wildcard

Sometimes Staal-Shattenkirk will get 1st pairing duties, depending on Smith’s bounce back, sometimes Smith-Pionk could be the matchup dpairing. Allowing both Skjei/ada, Shattenkirk, more beneficial offensive matchups.

Liked ada with Skjei from little I saw last year and styles and wanting to develop both players by playing them important minutes.
Like the stability and veteran game presence and the complementing of Staal/Shattenkirk
And I like pionks all around game and what smith showed me in his audition with the rangers. Think that could end up being a solid all around pairing.

 

[NYRFANMANI]

Ultimately, if everything works out I'll be happy with a RD-side consisting of:

Lundkvist
ADA
Pionk

 

[LORDE]

As with other fan-bases, we tend to overlook some players' warts due to their 'potential' and underrate (or even hate) some because they are known commodities.

Many in this thread have stated they'd rather play Gilmour or ADA, etc. over Staal... and that's not necessarily incorrect but it is exactly a 'known' for 'potential' trade out.

Staal was better last season at times, maybe he'll be better in Quinn's system... maybe not. Time will tell. So too with ADA... we'll know where he stands shortly... I know I'm rooting for him.

 

[True Blue]

But I think people really overrate what Pionk did last year. His underlying numbers in terms of driving offense were, in a word, terrible.

So what? There is far more to playing defense than "driving" the offense. Nash supposedly "drove" offense. Pionk's sabermertrics do not look great. So what? From the eye test, he was just fine. And playing in a role that AV thrust him in, namely first pairing defensemen. He was not ready for such a role. Especially considering how few games of NHL experience he had. Not really surprising that his metrics were off. But again, there is far more to playing well then how pretty your Corsi may look.

 

[True Blue]

New system,coach and Shattenkirk back should take away alot of those tough minutes and match ups

That may happen, but not because of Shattenkirk. Shattenkirk has been hidden from tough matchups throughout his career.

 

[mrmovies779]

That may happen, but not because of Shattenkirk. Shattenkirk has been hidden from tough matchups throughout his career.

He wont be here.We need him to step up his game and play as a top pairing d-man on both ends of the ice.Whether he does or not is a different story

 

[silverfish]

So what? There is far more to playing defense than "driving" the offense. Nash supposedly "drove" offense. Pionk's sabermertrics do not look great. So what? From the eye test, he was just fine. And playing in a role that AV thrust him in, namely first pairing defensemen. He was not ready for such a role. Especially considering how few games of NHL experience he had. Not really surprising that his metrics were off. But again, there is far more to playing well then how pretty your Corsi may look.

That's cool. You're allowed to have your version of how you evaluate players, and I'm allowed to have mine. Ain't no thing.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Ultimately, if everything works out I'll happy with a RD-side consisting of:

Lundkvist
ADA
Pionk

As long as one of them ends up as a legitimate #1-3 yeah.

 

[True Blue]

Ain't no thing.

Absolutely/