CBC Hot Stove: Tolvanen, Niku amongst prospects in play

[Connor McConnor]

Would love Niku on the Oilers.. exactly the sort of puck moving d-guy we need. I highly doubt he's available though this sounds like misinformation. But for arguments sake, what would it take?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

...
Who is coming with a better offer than 1st, Stanley and Petan for one of these guys?

Um, everybody? Even the Jets are coming with a better offer than that.

 

[Armourboy]

A late first and two busts won’t get you Stone or Duchene.

It might if no one is offering anything better, which is the point really.

As we've seen from past history, top prospects aren't moved for rentals, and rarely do teams get what they think they will on some of those moves.

Every team looking to make a move will basically be offering a late first rounder, and if none of them are willing to move their top prospects as history shows, you probably get much closer to the real answer on trade day.

 

[Tkachukecheese]

Niku won't be traded. That's utter nonsense to think otherwise. I don't doubt that teams are asking but much like last year at the deadline Chevy said there are players he was willing to trade and players that he wasn't. We're grooming him to play RHD next year when Myers walks. 1st + Stanley I could see. Heck, I'd go as high as 1st + Stanley + Petan and then I'd walk away and peddle my second round pick for the best player I could get.

Honestly with so many teams on the playoff bubble none of them are going to part with a 1st for one of these high end rentals. I feel like the market is actually pretty small.

Islanders - They may do something but they've already moved their 3rd and 4th round picks this year and have a lot of UFAs. 1st in the Metro though so maybe
Capitals - have $1M of deadline space, so not doing anything
Jackets - May be sellers if they move Panarin

Tampa - Probably doesn't need to add and will need the ELCs to keep the party going
Toronto - Already made their move
Boston - I could see them making a move

Montreal - Bergevin said he wasn't making a move earlier this season. Maybe he changes his mind but not likely
Pittsburgh - Have already traded their 2nd and 3rd round pick this year but probably want to make a move as the window is closing

So realistically Islanders, Bruins and Pens in the East.

Jets - probably make a move
Preds - probably make another move
Stars - under $2M of capspace at the deadline and not a player away from running through the Preds and Jets

Sharks - already made their move for Karlson
Flames - Could make a move
Vegas - Could make a move

Blues, Wild, Canucks, Avs shouldn't make moves

So then Jets, Preds, Flames, Vegas, Islanders, Bruins and Pens. Less then half of the playoff teams even considering making a splash at the deadline.

I'm sure Duchesne, Stone and Panarin (if moved) would get a big haul but then you also have Zuccarello, Hayes, Stall (maybe), Nyquist, Simmonds, Ferland, Brassard, Dzingle. That's 11 forwards and only 7 teams looking to add a player, never-mind adding specifically a forward.

Who is coming with a better offer than 1st, Stanley and Petan for one of these guys?

Wow so much to address here.....

I guess, we will start with "last year chevy said.." that was last year! And the talent that is available is something this league hasn't seen in....well maybe ever! Here is my thought process. Its just my opinion, just like you have yours. You came how close to the stanley cup final? Imagine stone or duchess in a 7 game series against nashville...you win that all day long! Fans are way too obsessed with their prospects. WHEN YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN YOU TAKE IT, and its not like you dont have connor, laine, ehlers, roslovic etc etc etc

I think you are wrong, very wrong. First I don't think Panarin is getting traded, they are in the playoff mix and you don't trade an asset for futures, you trade them in a hockey deal for someone who can help you in the playoffs. If he is dealt I can only assume that it is to the panthers in a deal that sends bob and breadman and huberdeau is going back.

I truly think that Stone and Duchene are the only top two guys getting moved. And don't be foolish, there is a MASSIVE gap between these two and ferland, simmonds etc. Not only are Duchene and Stone the most talented players available since Marian Hossa, but they both are from the same team! Pierre should be able to literally bounce the offers around like its no mans business (he will likely mess it up what a bum)

Pierre Mcguire came on the radio and stated that as many a ten teams would have serious interest in stone/duchene..... and he knows his stuff that nerdy little bugger. With pasta breaking his thumb...even better for the sens we know the bruins are going to be in on them now BIG TIME.

Teams who will be fighting for stone/duchene.... once again IMO..... VEGAS, BOSTON, WINNIPEG, NASHVILLE, ISLANDERS....SNEAKY TEAMS I THINK ARE CAROLINA, DALLAS.

You may not like the price as a fan, but I think its foolish, its not hey lets go jets in 3-4 years when these guys are good and really contributing....its lets win the god damn cup and bring that thing home to Canada....

If you think that a quantity vs quality trade is going to be the best thing on the table for the sens you are really wrong....and if nashville or anyone in your first two rounds or even conference gets one of these guys you are in big trouble. These are high scoring, impact, big game players who instantly make any contending team the favourite.

 

[heilongjetsfan]

you ruined it, bro.

She's really good with them though.

 

[sens13]

it was mentioned tonight on the broadcast that wpg might be in on stone. dorion is also going to scout the jets game on thursday and also the moose when they play. seem's like they might be in serious talks. won't be surprised if one of duchene/stone is playing for the jets vs the sens on saturday.

 

[jgimp]

Would love Niku on the Oilers.. exactly the sort of puck moving d-guy we need. I highly doubt he's available though this sounds like misinformation. But for arguments sake, what would it take?

Niku + Perrault for Nurse? Frenchie can play anywhere in the lineup and is a possession monster. He is stuck behind the depth that is the Jets. Small add from the jets to balance like a 2nd or b prospect

 

[Clayonator]

If Niku is damn near untouchable as Jets fans are saying, is there a similar consensus on Vesalainen? Or would organizational depth lead him to be slightly more expendable depending on return? (Stone/Duchene)

 

[Hunter368]

If Niku is damn near untouchable as Jets fans are saying, is there a similar consensus on Vesalainen? Or would organizational depth lead him to be slightly more expendable depending on return? (Stone/Duchene)

Can't see either Vesalainen or Niku being traded for "any" rental player......they're just too good & fill too big of need. Of course both of them and Rosvolic are attractive to all sellers and Chevy is very likely receiving calls on them.......but highly doubt Chevy trades any of the three for just a rental. I can see Chevy possibly trading the Jets 1st Rd pick and any of 2-3 C level prospects for rental(s).

 

[Hunter368]

Would love Niku on the Oilers.. exactly the sort of puck moving d-guy we need. I highly doubt he's available though this sounds like misinformation. But for arguments sake, what would it take?

He wouldn't be available......he's exactly what the Jets need at LHD, we're currently limping by with Chairot which isn't good as our 2nd pairing LHD. Makes absolutely zero sense trading away one of your biggest needs (arguably our biggest need).

 

[Jimmyjets]

Um, everybody? Even the Jets are coming with a better offer than that.

I hope we don't. It would be a big mistake if we did.

 

[93LEAFS]

Who is coming with a better offer than 1st, Stanley and Petan for one of these guys?

Someone will for Duchene, unless Ottawa highly values Stanley. Stanley is a really divisive prospect, and opinions on him are wide ranging. Petan has very limited value at the moment (maybe a 3rd) as he's a guy without waiver eligibility who isn't good enough to play consistently for a good team. Those guys tend to get valued between a 3rd and 5th. In Ottawa's eyes, that deal could be valued at as 2 firsts and a 3rd or a first and 2 3rds. That second offer can be topped if that is how they view it. The first one not so much.

The Preds offering a package around Tolvanen+2nd or a 1st+Fabbro (if Ottawa believes they can get him to sign) would easily top that offer in my eyes, and could realistically be put on the table.

 

[Royale With Cheese]

If Niku is damn near untouchable as Jets fans are saying, is there a similar consensus on Vesalainen? Or would organizational depth lead him to be slightly more expendable depending on return? (Stone/Duchene)

I don't think Niku is untouchable, and likely neither is Vesalainen. They're the Jets best two prospects though, so it's not likely they would be moved for a pure rental.

 

[TkachukNorris79]

Tolvanen and Niku are the rumors but I'd actually expect those teams are more willing to deal Vesalainen and Fabbro. WPG is going to need Niku more than Vesalainen, and same goes for Nashville needing Tolvanen more than Fabbro, with Ellis and Subban locked up.

 

[Tkachukecheese]

Can't see either Vesalainen or Niku being traded for "any" rental player......they're just too good & fill too big of need. Of course both of them and Rosvolic are attractive to all sellers and Chevy is very likely receiving calls on them.......but highly doubt Chevy trades any of the three for just a rental. I can see Chevy possibly trading the Jets 1st Rd pick and any of 2-3 C level prospects for rental(s).

I think you are confused, it's Chevy calling other gms for top line rentals that the league has never seen before. I respect you liking your prospects... But it's either pay up or pass... And if you pass and someone like Nashville pays... You are in big trouble in the playoffs.

 

[Jimmyjets]

Wow so much to address here.....

I guess, we will start with "last year chevy said.." that was last year! And the talent that is available is something this league hasn't seen in....well maybe ever! Here is my thought process. Its just my opinion, just like you have yours. You came how close to the stanley cup final? Imagine stone or duchess in a 7 game series against nashville...you win that all day long! Fans are way too obsessed with their prospects. WHEN YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN YOU TAKE IT, and its not like you dont have connor, laine, ehlers, roslovic etc etc etc

I think you are wrong, very wrong. First I don't think Panarin is getting traded, they are in the playoff mix and you don't trade an asset for futures, you trade them in a hockey deal for someone who can help you in the playoffs. If he is dealt I can only assume that it is to the panthers in a deal that sends bob and breadman and huberdeau is going back.

I truly think that Stone and Duchene are the only top two guys getting moved. And don't be foolish, there is a MASSIVE gap between these two and ferland, simmonds etc. Not only are Duchene and Stone the most talented players available since Marian Hossa, but they both are from the same team! Pierre should be able to literally bounce the offers around like its no mans business (he will likely mess it up what a bum)

Pierre Mcguire came on the radio and stated that as many a ten teams would have serious interest in stone/duchene..... and he knows his stuff that nerdy little bugger. With pasta breaking his thumb...even better for the sens we know the bruins are going to be in on them now BIG TIME.

Teams who will be fighting for stone/duchene.... once again IMO..... VEGAS, BOSTON, WINNIPEG, NASHVILLE, ISLANDERS....SNEAKY TEAMS I THINK ARE CAROLINA, DALLAS.

You may not like the price as a fan, but I think its foolish, its not hey lets go jets in 3-4 years when these guys are good and really contributing....its lets win the god damn cup and bring that thing home to Canada....

If you think that a quantity vs quality trade is going to be the best thing on the table for the sens you are really wrong....and if nashville or anyone in your first two rounds or even conference gets one of these guys you are in big trouble. These are high scoring, impact, big game players who instantly make any contending team the favourite.

Wow, so much to re-address here...

I guess , we will start with Chevy's decision making process when he thinks about adding a rental, especially one that won't be playing on our top line. He has proven that he has an ability to stick to his guns. I'm strongly suggesting that the Jets will make their best offer and then walk away if someone comes to the table with more. It doesn't matter that the quote occurred last year, he was talking about his process. That won't change no matter how much other people want to think that it will. We already have a chance to win. I'd suggest that currently being in first place in the West means we have a good chance to win even without adding. Giving up prime assets that are critical in filling holes in the future just shortens the window, which is fine if you actually win it, but foolish if you don't.

The Bobfather disagrees with your take on Panarin, but does think that if they move him they need to be able to get Duchesne for less then Panarin's return. I do agree that they likely keep him though.

A MASSIVE gap indeed. Stone scores at 0.0497 points per minute and Ferland scores at 0.0490 points per minute. I'm just being a bit of a pain here. Stone plays in more situations and is better but on the Jets Stone or Duchesne would be playing on our second line. Our top line is playing 20 minutes a game and our shut down "third" line is going to play 16 minutes against the other teams top line. If we want to get our 4th line playing 8 minutes a game that leaves 16 minutes for the line that our acquisition is on. Is one player playing 16 minutes worth a king's ransom? I would suggest it isn't. Especially when we're already really good. (Top 5 in goals for and bottom 10 in goals against) Playoffs are a lucky bounce or two difference between winning and losing.

It's all great to say "lets win the god damn cup and bring that thing home to Canada...." but what if we don't this year? Then our ELC replacements for next year and the year after are gone and we have to ice a weak lineup and because of the cap we can't add quality UFAs.

I'm not actually worried about anyone in the Conference getting either of these guys. Especially if the cost is multiple premium assets. I think we're better than all of them today and none of them are one player away from being better than us. I don't find the Preds forwards scary (even with another add), the Stars have no Defence, the Blues are slow and the Wild without Koivu won't be adding. The Sharks already added. I am scared of the Flames if they add or not. Screw Vegas.

 

[Tkachukecheese]

Wow, so much to re-address here...

I guess , we will start with Chevy's decision making process when he thinks about adding a rental, especially one that won't be playing on our top line. He has proven that he has an ability to stick to his guns. I'm strongly suggesting that the Jets will make their best offer and then walk away if someone comes to the table with more. It doesn't matter that the quote occurred last year, he was talking about his process. That won't change no matter how much other people want to think that it will. We already have a chance to win. I'd suggest that currently being in first place in the West means we have a good chance to win even without adding. Giving up prime assets that are critical in filling holes in the future just shortens the window, which is fine if you actually win it, but foolish if you don't.

The Bobfather disagrees with your take on Panarin, but does think that if they move him they need to be able to get Duchesne for less then Panarin's return. I do agree that they likely keep him though.

A MASSIVE gap indeed. Stone scores at 0.0497 points per minute and Ferland scores at 0.0490 points per minute. I'm just being a bit of a pain here. Stone plays in more situations and is better but on the Jets Stone or Duchesne would be playing on our second line. Our top line is playing 20 minutes a game and our shut down "third" line is going to play 16 minutes against the other teams top line. If we want to get our 4th line playing 8 minutes a game that leaves 16 minutes for the line that our acquisition is on. Is one player playing 16 minutes worth a king's ransom? I would suggest it isn't. Especially when we're already really good. (Top 5 in goals for and bottom 10 in goals against) Playoffs are a lucky bounce or two difference between winning and losing.

It's all great to say "lets win the god damn cup and bring that thing home to Canada...." but what if we don't this year? Then our ELC replacements for next year and the year after are gone and we have to ice a weak lineup and because of the cap we can't add quality UFAs.

I'm not actually worried about anyone in the Conference getting either of these guys. Especially if the cost is multiple premium assets. I think we're better than all of them today and none of them are one player away from being better than us. I don't find the Preds forwards scary (even with another add), the Stars have no Defence, the Blues are slow and the Wild without Koivu won't be adding. The Sharks already added. I am scared of the Flames if they add or not. Screw Vegas.

Well we disagree big time then. All good man I respect your opinion.

 

[Jimmyjets]

Someone will for Duchene, unless Ottawa highly values Stanley. Stanley is a really divisive prospect, and opinions on him are wide ranging. Petan has very limited value at the moment (maybe a 3rd) as he's a guy without waiver eligibility who isn't good enough to play consistently for a good team. Those guys tend to get valued between a 3rd and 5th. In Ottawa's eyes, that deal could be valued at as 2 firsts and a 3rd or a first and 2 3rds. That second offer can be topped if that is how they view it. The first one not so much.

The Preds offering a package around Tolvanen+2nd or a 1st+Fabbro (if Ottawa believes they can get him to sign) would easily top that offer in my eyes, and could realistically be put on the table.

I agree that they should take the Tolvanen package. Does Fabbro really choose to go to Ottawa? To me the Jets package even if viewed as a 1st and 2 - 3rds (which I disagree with) would be way less risky as you have the opportunity to give to Petan, the 1sts which cancel and then a D prospect that was a 1st round pick. Rumour is the Dorian is going to be spending the week in Winnipeg because both the Jets and Moose play 3 times each with the Sens in here on Saturday. Assuming the leaked offer is accurate he probably wants to make a good assessment of Stanley's play.

Also, assume they move Duchesne to the Preds. Who tops the offer for Stone? It could happen, maybe Vegas offers Brannstrom + 1st + Conditional 1st if they extend him. I have no interest in beating that offer and would be happy moving on to peddle my 2nd round pick plus for a Stall or a Hayes or a Zuccarello.

 

[Tkachukecheese]

I agree that they should take the Tolvanen package. Does Fabbro really choose to go to Ottawa? To me the Jets package even if viewed as a 1st and 2 - 3rds (which I disagree with) would be way less risky as you have the opportunity to give to Petan, the 1sts which cancel and then a D prospect that was a 1st round pick. Rumour is the Dorian is going to be spending the week in Winnipeg because both the Jets and Moose play 3 times each with the Sens in here on Saturday. Assuming the leaked offer is accurate he probably wants to make a good assessment of Stanley's play.

Also, assume they move Duchesne to the Preds. Who tops the offer for Stone? It could happen, maybe Vegas offers Brannstrom + 1st + Conditional 1st if they extend him. I have no interest in beating that offer and would be happy moving on to peddle my 2nd round pick plus for a Stall or a Hayes or a Zuccarello.

Here is what we know

Boston lost Pastrnak and was alrwdy looking for a winger... They are in big time now.

Winnipeg has been very cold lately... Losing a lot....

Nashville has been meh lately as well and they have terrible scoring from top guys

Vegas has lost 7 of 10

Panarin doesn't seem to be moving because columbus is in the playoffs

Boyle got a God Damn second round pick....

Dorion holds both assets in stone and Duchene

Both Duchene stone and even dzingle have been UNREAL lately


Its shaping up to be a complete bid off, everything is working in the Sens favour

 

[93LEAFS]

I agree that they should take the Tolvanen package. Does Fabbro really choose to go to Ottawa? To me the Jets package even if viewed as a 1st and 2 - 3rds (which I disagree with) would be way less risky as you have the opportunity to give to Petan, the 1sts which cancel and then a D prospect that was a 1st round pick. Rumour is the Dorian is going to be spending the week in Winnipeg because both the Jets and Moose play 3 times each with the Sens in here on Saturday. Assuming the leaked offer is accurate he probably wants to make a good assessment of Stanley's play.

Also, assume they move Duchesne to the Preds. Who tops the offer for Stone? It could happen, maybe Vegas offers Brannstrom + 1st + Conditional 1st if they extend him. I have no interest in beating that offer and would be happy moving on to peddle my 2nd round pick plus for a Stall or a Hayes or a Zuccarello.

Fabbro is a wildcard we have no idea what his plans are.

I don't think Stanley is that highly valued. He was always highly divisive, and it is not like he's erased the concerns about his puck-moving ability post draft to have a likely chance of moving into a teams top 4. He was a guy who likely didn't have a first round grade from multiple teams. Players like Petan just don't have much value league wide. He's trapped in that he doesn't have the opportunity to prove himself in Winnipeg, and if you get him and he doesn't work out, he's waiver fodder because you can't send him down to the AHL without clearing. As soon as a guy loses waiver exemption and hasn't cemented himself as an NHLer the player's value is almost never higher than a 3rd, especially on in their D+6 season (sometimes you see a 2nd for a guy brought up prematurely who lost waiver status in their D+3 or +4 like Curtis Lazar). This draft isn't that deep, and you are projecting the pick to be between 24 and 31.

I'm not saying the Jets should trade Vesalainen or Niku in a package for Duchene. I'm just saying I can see that offer being topped. Stanley is such a variable and eye of the beholder type prospect, it is very hard to place his value.

 

[Hunter368]

I think you are confused, it's Chevy calling other gms for top line rentals that the league has never seen before. I respect you liking your prospects... But it's either pay up or pass... And if you pass and someone like Nashville pays... You are in big trouble in the playoffs.

Chevy, like all GM’s of playoff teams, is kicking the tires on a lot of options. The options will either fit into his plans or not. Rentals typically don’t increase your teams chances of winning the cup significantly so they aren’t typically worth a ton. You don’t give up top prospects along with 1st rd picks to increase your odds of winning by only 2-3%. The term “top prospects” is subjective and means different things to different people........Let’s wait and see what Chevy does or doesn’t do, everyone has a different opinion on what should be done....I’ll wait and see what the actual GM does and go from there.

PS: There are insider reports that other GM’s calling Chevy specifically on Roslovic

 

[Tkachukecheese]

Chevy, like all GM’s of playoff teams, is kicking the tires on a lot of options. The options will either fit into his plans or not. Rentals typically don’t increase your teams chances of winning the cup significantly so they aren’t typically worth a ton. You don’t give up top prospects along with 1st rd picks to increase your odds of winning by only 2-3%. The term “top prospects” is subjective and means different things to different people........Let’s wait and see what Chevy does or doesn’t do, everyone has a different opinion on what should be done....I’ll wait and see what the actual GM does and go from there.

Couldn't agree more when the rentals are Rick Nash... Or other meh guys.

This year is a much different story... These are huge impact players.. Massive. So I don't buy in to the rental price crap, it's different this year. If your competition gets either of these guys you are in big trouble. I think Winnipeg makes a play for one of them, just don't be shocked when roslovic or niku are going back... OR multiple picks and guys like Stanley etc

 

[Hunter368]

Couldn't agree more when the rentals are Rick Nash... Or other meh guys.

This year is a much different story... These are huge impact players.. Massive. So I don't buy in to the rental price crap, it's different this year. If your competition gets either of these guys you are in big trouble. I think Winnipeg makes a play for one of them, just don't be shocked when roslovic or niku are going back... OR multiple picks and guys like Stanley etc

Duchene is having a career year unlike other years......I wouldn’t call him “huge” like a JT was as a UFA. Sure he would be a good rental for someone but personally I wouldn’t call him huge just bc he’s likely having a one off year that possibly won’t continue at any moment based on his career numbers. Not all will agree with that statement and that’s ok....just an opinion.

Stone is very interesting I agree, he would be nice.

Panarin is a good player no doubt but hasn’t been reported to be of major interest to the Jets.

If Chevy went after one of the above imo it’s Stone with the hope of signing him afterwards. I think Duchene & Panarin purely want to bolt to UFA......Stone might consider extending. IMO

Stanley is a prime example of the subjective nature of what people call “top prospects”. I would gladly trade Stanley plus pick(S) for Stone.......Stanley isn’t a top prospect imo. Niku, Roslovic & Vesalainen are top prospects within our organization that fill huge needs in the future.......Stanley not so much.

Like all of us here, none of us know how the GM feels or speak for the entire fan base. We will all know in the near future what happens.

 

[Tkachukecheese]

I agree that stone makes the most sense. I just find it ridiculous that with guys like scheifele Laine ehlers connor etc that you can't trade one of those three and a first for a hometown kid who is one of the best players in the league. He's like a young patrice Bergeron he's so effing good defensively and offensively it's sick. Just pay up and enjoy man!

 

[dubgeek]

Tolvanen and Niku are the rumors but I'd actually expect those teams are more willing to deal Vesalainen and Fabbro. WPG is going to need Niku more than Vesalainen, and same goes for Nashville needing Tolvanen more than Fabbro, with Ellis and Subban locked up.

I disagree there. With the upcoming expansion draft, keeping Fabbro lets Nashville protect three of their top 4D and more of their forwards. If a package around Tolvanen would get Stone I REALLY hope Poile goes for it.