Tocchet Do We Really Need Him

[bossram]

Tocchet has his flaws, but he's able to build a culture which is something this team has lacked for almost a decade. Without a culture high end draft picks underachieve, and players regress. I think the odds of the team finding a better coach off the scrap heap are low. Imo, the best chance for improvement is to build on the current coaching staff.

This is an extremely bizarre argument, especially given what we've seen this season:

Intra-team feuds/fighting, comically jekyll and hide nightly performances, degradation of offensive output from some skill players...

Tocc is an NHL coach. That's about it. He doesn't provide any value-add relative to any other NHL coaching carousel candidate.

 

[kanucks25]

Interesting necro....

But there is nothing in this post that refutes what I said. Tocc wants the team to play a low event style, where game outcomes hinge on a bounce here or there. It's a style bad teams employ to keep the game slow and hope they're on the right side of variance. This is how they played last season as well.

I never said it might not be optimal for this roster. It might be the correct tactical choice. But it is irrefutable that this style of play is intentional.

I don't think Tocc is a bad coach. I just don't think he's particularly good. I haven't seen anything in his career that suggest he's above NHL coaching replacement level.

I guess my point is you're not wrong in saying they did deploy a low event system on purpose but I don't see a better game plan option given the roster this season, or lack thereof.

And sorry about the necro LOL I thought I was on the last page but I wasn't. Only realized after I posted but decided to just leave it cause it was still pertinent I guess.

 

[bossram]

I guess my point is you're not wrong in saying they did deploy a low event system on purpose but I don't see a better game plan option given the roster this season, or lack thereof.

And sorry about the necro LOL I thought I was on the last page but I wasn't. Only realized after I posted but decided to just leave it cause it was still pertinent I guess.

No problem. I appreciate the discussion and good points all around.

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

This is an extremely bizarre argument, especially given what we've seen this season:

Intra-team feuds/fighting, comically jekyll and hide nightly performances, degradation of offensive output from some skill players...

Tocc is an NHL coach. That's about it. He doesn't provide any value-add relative to any other NHL coaching carousel candidate.

He built a culture last season and got the team to believe in themselves. Something previous coaches couldn't manage to do. I think this group is still fragile from their traumatic record of failure and when the blue line couldn't keep its head above water and the team couldn't play consistently old problems (like Miller's attitude) started to resurface again.

 

[bossram]

He built a culture last season and got the team to believe in themselves. Something previous coaches couldn't manage to do. I think this group is still fragile from their traumatic record of failure and when the blue line couldn't keep its head above water and the team couldn't play consistently old problems (like Miller's attitude) started to resurface again.

In other words, there isn't much of a positive culture.

 

[Regress2TheMeme]

In other words, there isn't much of a positive culture.

Something is better than nothing. A culture exists but isn't iron clad because of our core being damaged by years of failure. That core is being turned over so I'm hopeful Pettersson finds himself again and joins Hughes as a lead by example kind of player.

 

[Brookbank]

I don't think Tocc is a bad coach. I just don't think he's particularly good. I haven't seen anything in his career that suggest he's above NHL coaching replacement level.

He's above average structure wise and below average in everything else. It sounds like they are going to spend a fortune resigning him. If it was my money, I wouldn't do it. Boated coach contracts become a weight on the team. Because everyone knows the owners will resist firing them. And then they need to cheap out a bit on the replacement.

 

[F A N]

I would be surprised if Tocchet isn't back next year but over the last few weeks I'll be perfectly honest. If Malhotra is our head coach next season I wouldn't be upset at all. At some point a young coach needs to take the job. I mean I look at Washington as an example of hiring an inexperienced coach but getting results.

I would say that Washington's head coach is reasonably experienced as a first time NHL head coach: 5 years as a HC in ECHL, 1 in OHL, 3 in AHL, 2 years in the NHL as an assistant.

Malhotra I think could use a couple more years of running his own bench in the AHL.

 

[iFan]

I don’t think we need any coaches, the players can manage themselves

 

[David71]

After our Captains comments the other day I think it's pretty clear the answer to this...........He gave a VERY strong endorsement of the coach and team. Anyone suggesting we move on is out to lunch..........

doesnt matter what the captain says. its up to mangemnet to supply tocchet with the right mix of players. someone that can put the puck in the net. lets hypothecially say tocheet is resigned WHAT if they come out of the gates slow again. fire the coach? 5 coaches in 6 years.. cant always use that card over and over again. overhauling the roster is one. say trade petterson if hes still on the team come october. owner wont be happy paying money for a coach that is fired say 10-15 games in.

 

[geebster]

It wouldn't be crazy to move on from a coach after that messy of a season. Injuries aren't his fault but him and Rutherford did not help things by bluntly commenting on the Miller/Petey stuff and the team routinely wasn't ready to go which is on the coach.

BUT all indications are that Quinn loves the guy and if the captain is vouching for Tocch then they should do what they can to extend him. Hughes is the guy who will determine what our team is like so his say should matter most. Also not in love with any of the available coaches right now.

 

[VanJack]

I'm beginning to think that Tocchet himself hasn't decided what he wants to do. Clearly, he's going to need time to decompress over this disastrous season.

I'm now leaning toward his return at being no better than 50/50....and the longer we get into the off-season without a decision from either Tocchet or management, the more likely it is that he's leaving.

Coming off a Jack Adams trophy last season, the result this year is almost the last thing you thought might ever happen--but here we are.

 

[I am toxic]

//

Coming off a Jack Adams trophy last season, the result this year is almost the last thing you thought might ever happen--but was inevitable for Canucks fans and everyone and the Sedin's blind dog should have seen it coming- and here we are.

Fify

What are you, new to them har' parts?

 

[calnuck]

Posted this in the Around the League thread but I wanted to post this here as well:

With Bylsma out in Seattle, is he someone worth considering?

 

[ExarKun80]

Posted this in the Around the League thread but I wanted to post this here as well:

With Bylsma out in Seattle, is he someone worth considering?

You can't be serious. He is Willie D level. Winning a cup 16 years ago while having a stacked Penguins team with prime Crosby and Malkin does not make him a good coach.

I don't rate Rick that much but I would keep him over Disco Dan with no hesitation.

 

[Bubbles]

What is the obsession with "re-progamming" players? Canucks are always trying to turn every player into a 200ft grinder or something. Some players are just meant to be purely offensive and just moderate to adequate defensively.

The good teams just play a couple of defensively good forwards with the high price offense and it works out.

Look at Clayton Keller's blossoming since Tocchet left.

 

[Another Empty Netter]

Posted this in the Around the League thread but I wanted to post this here as well:

With Bylsma out in Seattle, is he someone worth considering?

only if you just fired Terrien and have prime Crosby, Malkin and Fleury on your squad

 

[LemonSauceD]

If he leaves add another reason Hughes leaves

 

[Isi]

at least the fairytale of "we have his option next season so he's coming back no matter what" has been put to bed

 

[kanucks25]

What is the obsession with "re-progamming" players? Canucks are always trying to turn every player into a 200ft grinder or something. Some players are just meant to be purely offensive and just moderate to adequate defensively.

The good teams just play a couple of defensively good forwards with the high price offense and it works out.

Look at Clayton Keller's blossoming since Tocchet left.

If you are suggesting Keller getting away from Tocchet is the reason for his emergence, are you also suggesting Tocchet is the reason for the rise to super stardom for guys like Hughes, Miller and Stamkos?

And what they are looking for from Pettersson is what guys like Datsyuk, Crosby, Kopitar, Bergeron, Toews, Barkov, etc. gave the teams they led. It doesn't necessarily mean Selke level two-way game, it means championship level commitment on and off the ice that is expected based on his salary and role.

 

[theguardianII]

What is the obsession with "re-progamming" players? Canucks are always trying to turn every player into a 200ft grinder or something. Some players are just meant to be purely offensive and just moderate to adequate defensively.

The good teams just play a couple of defensively good forwards with the high price offense and it works out.

Look at Clayton Keller's blossoming since Tocchet left.

Keller even asked for a trade. Yes the line idea, put strengths with weaknesses, that's called coaching.

If you are suggesting Keller getting away from Tocchet is the reason for his emergence, are you also suggesting Tocchet is the reason for the rise to super stardom for guys like Hughes, Miller and Stamkos?

And what they are looking for from Pettersson is what guys like Datsyuk, Crosby, Kopitar, Bergeron, Toews, Barkov, etc. gave the teams they led. It doesn't necessarily mean Selke level two-way game, it means championship level commitment on and off the ice that is expected based on his salary and role.

What ever makes you believe that Pettersson was ever like those guys? It is a team, that means lots of players not just one. That he gets paid this much is not his fault, he didn't hold out for that, he didn't even want to sign that early.

At any rate they made it very obvious that Pettersson was not their choice to keep, made that obvious to Pettersson and no doubt soured the market on him. This make losing a trade for him much more acceptable to the fans.

Trading Pettersson will not be a win for the Canucks.
He has a 10 million dollar signing bonus July 1 so a trade before he get his NMC is very doubtful BUT with this declaration that he was their second choice, Miller being their first, might make Pettersson willing to waive that clause AFTER he gets his 10 million.

A lot of fans called him 11.6 this year, that is totally false, he made 14.6 million this year and next year so that 10 mil bonus leaves 4.5 mil for the rest of next year, that might make him more valuable.

With the lack of quality FAs out there and most of the team's high value assets being Hughes, Garland, Pettersson and Demko with Lekkerimaki on the borderline that leaves mostly only the very high valued 1rst round picks in 2026 and 2027

 

[ManVanFan]

 

[Nucky]

I don't think he's a top 5 coach in the league, but I do think he's a solid coach. He has his flaws but so does pretty much any coach who isn't in the elite tier.

I feel like his cautious system + getting players to buy-in does raise a team's floor, but at the same time I feel like players overthink offensively and default too much to the point shot with traffic because they're afraid of making a play that might not work and will lead to a loss of possession.

 

[ManVanFan]

I don't think he's a top 5 coach in the league, but I do think he's a solid coach. He has his flaws but so does pretty much any coach who isn't in the elite tier.

I feel like his cautious system + getting players to buy-in does raise a team's floor, but at the same time I feel like players overthink offensively and default too much to the point shot with traffic because they're afraid of making a play that might not work and will lead to a loss of possession.

I said previous, there is only 11 current NHL coaches I would give consideration to over Tocchet. Before shit went to hell this year, .625 win percentage over the first 20 games. .585 made the playoffs in the West.

Tocchet is not a bad coach. He's a great motivator, great with fundamentals but he needs the X's and O's guy, someone with some creativity to help him. Foote doing great with the PK.

How do you pay the guy top tier when he really isn't the complete package.

 

[calnuck]

With management not doing the option year I’m hopeful he doesn’t come back.