Speculation: Tocchet, do we really need him?

[ManVanFan]

Schmaltz and Keller were upcoming young players.

Keller had 65 points in his rookie year under Tocchet.

A washed up Kessel had 43 points in 56 games.

Chycrun had his best offensive year with 41 points in 56 games under Tocch.

Garland had his best year with 39 in 49 under Tocch.

All one and done's with Tocchet though. Kind of like the current roster. A lot were great last year and now can't score.

 

[F A N]

Trading their 'second best d-man'? I'm having trouble remembering who that might have been. Are we referring to OEL? He was actually bought out. And Tanev left as a free agent.

If you read and followed the discussions we were clearly talking about the Coyotes after Tocchet left.

 

[bossram]

so the coach is telling the players not to shoot? or am i missing something here. are they afraid of making a mistake and getting benched. like a hoglander. but guys like garland/blueger get a pass because they can backcheck and always the last man back.

I think it's this. He says publicly he wants guys to "hold onto pucks", but if you make the wrong decision with puck management, you'll get in s**t with him. Take a risk to create a chance but it ends up in a turnover? You're done.

 

[credulous]

I think it's this. He says publicly he wants guys to "hold onto pucks", but if you make the wrong decision with puck management, you'll get in s**t with him. Take a risk to create a chance but it ends up in a turnover? You're done.

it's the system too. there's no winning team in the nhl that plays like the canucks. the closest is carolina and they are built completely differently and play completely differently in the offensive zone. he says he wants players to shoot more and move more but it's impossible to do that in a puck pursuit system where you can't predict where the puck is going to be. the canucks spend so much time standing around because the system makes the puck location unpredictable

the only time this team showed any kind of offensive ability was when they were converting on almost all of their off the rush chances. as soon as their conversion rate regressed their offense dried up because they just don't get enough rush opportunities with tocchet's system

 

[bossram]

it's the system too. there's no winning team in the nhl that plays like the canucks. the closest is carolina and they are built completely differently and play completely differently in the offensive zone. he says he wants players to shoot more and move more but it's impossible to do that in a puck pursuit system where you can't predict where the puck is going to be. the canucks spend so much time standing around because the system makes the puck location unpredictable

the only time this team showed any kind of offensive ability was when they were converting on almost all of their off the rush chances. as soon as their conversion rate regressed their offense dried up because they just don't get enough rush opportunities with tocchet's system

Yeah, I've teed off on their system a lot too. They generate nothing on the rush and that's by design.

 

[sensodyne17]

The Canucks are basically last in the league in offensive creation. You're telling me they have less talent than the likes of Seattle, Chicago, SJ, Anaheim, etc.? Or is Tocc impeding their offensive creation?

Right now? Without Hughes?

The current Canucks forward group is really not that much better or better at all than the likes of Seattle, Chicago, SJ, and Anaheim.

We lost our 1C in JTM and our other 1C disappeared. Losing JTM also has completely erased Boeser's productivity. Right now, we only have one top six forward playing to his ability which is DeBrusk... who is a only a decent second line player.

No forward is on pace to finish with more than 55 points this year.

So yes.... by the way they are performing, we do have less talent than Seattle, Chicago, SJ and Anaheim. We're a team with 3 3rd lines right now and a fourth line. Don't look at coaching systems... that's due to Petey and Boeser being mostly awful all year long and losing JTM. This is the 4th coach for this "core"... it's not the coach and never was.

Unless you think it's "coaching systems" as to why Petey and Boeser has been awful all year but guys like Garland, DeBrusk, Suter, Blueger, Sherwood are playing up to par...

When your best forwards completely fall off the cliff, this is what happens.

 

[bossram]

Right now? Without Hughes?

The current Canucks forward group is really not that much better or better at all than the likes of Seattle, Chicago, SJ, and Anaheim.

We lost our 1C in JTM and our other 1C disappeared. Losing JTM also has completely erased Boeser's productivity. Right now, we only have one top six forward playing to his ability which is DeBrusk... who is a only a decent second line player.

No forward is on pace to finish with more than 55 points this year.

So yes.... by the way they are performing, we do have less talent than Seattle, Chicago, SJ and Anaheim. We're a team with 3 3rd lines right now and a fourth line. Don't look at coaching systems... that's due to Petey and Boeser being mostly awful all year long and losing JTM. This is the 4th coach for this "core"... it's not the coach and never was.

Unless you think it's "coaching systems" as to why Petey and Boeser has been awful all year but guys like Garland, DeBrusk, Suter, Blueger, Sherwood are playing up to par...

When your best forwards completely fall off the cliff, this is what happens.

These numbers are from Nov. 1. The majority of that time is with Hughes. And some portion with Miller. Even with those guys, the offensive generation was terrible. How do you explain that then?

Pretty much every forward is underperforming. Garland's production has gone off a cliff since a hot start. Suter is producing less efficiently than last season. Obviously the top guys are slumping. I'd say Debrusk is meeting expectations. The only guy exceeding expectations is Sherwood and that makes sense - he likes to skate in and hit on the forecheck and that fits Tocc's forechecking preference.

You: "Ignore the coaching systems". LMAO. Basically your argument is "ignore any evidence that Tocc is a part of this". Yeah, I guess if you ignore anything that cuts against your argument, your argument might be convincing!

 

[racerjoe]

As some have said it is the system.

I don't think he is a bad coach by any means, but like pretty much all coaches he has his limitations. He can't make adjustments seemingly, and doesn't cater our system to who we actually have on the team. If we can get an assistant who specialises in more of that I am fine with him as a coach.

Like the team itself the coaches are a team and you need them to bring different things and I am not sure we have the right mix.

 

[sensodyne17]

These numbers are from Nov. 1. The majority of that time is with Hughes. And some portion with Miller. Even with those guys, the offensive generation was terrible. How do you explain that then?

Pretty much every forward is underperforming. Garland's production has gone off a cliff since a hot start. Suter is producing less efficiently than last season. Obviously the top guys are slumping. I'd say Debrusk is meeting expectations. The only guy exceeding expectations is Sherwood and that makes sense - he likes to skate in and hit on the forecheck and that fits Tocc's forechecking preference.

You: "Ignore the coaching systems". LMAO. Basically your argument is "ignore any evidence that Tocc is a part of this". Yeah, I guess if you ignore anything that cuts against your argument, your argument might be convincing!

Sorry why are we using an arbitrary cut-off date? To try to create a narrative or something?

I guess games pre Nov 15 don't count? Why are we not evaluating the overall body of work?

Hughes has been banged up for a while and been in and out of games.

Miller has played like sh!t with the Canucks and had to take a personal leave to miss a month. I guess that's also Tocchet's fault?

Garland, Suter are pacing for seasons that are similar to what they did last year so I'm not sure where the complaints are.

I'm not saying Tocchet isn't a defensive minded coach - his system is meant to mimic a playoff shut-down environment in which we saw last year. We didn't have a problem scoring goals. You can point to high PDO but this season we have completely imploded internally. Tocchet is not even top 10 in the list of problems right now.

I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Demko transformed from a Vezina candidate to Mr.Glass?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Petey has completely fell off a cliff?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Miller was playing like doodoo all year and had to go a month long leave of absence?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Boeser was concussed, and lost his playmaking 1C due to a forced trade and has been bad ever since?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Hoglander has been absolutely snake bitten all year and a non-factor all year after scoring 24 goals last year?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that his only puckmoving defenseman aside from Hughes also missed a chunk of the season in Hronek?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that we had to keep playing Juulsen/Friedman/Soucy/Forbort and had NO puck moving ability from the back-end (before we called up DPetey and acquired MP)?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Dakota Joshua had cancer and missed training camp and hasn't been up to par all year?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault this team is slow and not constructed to win 3v3 and keeps losing in OT?

Like... let's use our brains here and exercise some common sense. What happened to context? Like just watch the games... the guys are not getting it done right now and it's not due to coaching. Our top players (essentially the core) are either gone, hurt, or not playing like a top player (Demko, Miller, Petey, Boeser, Hughes). The season has been a trainwreck and Tocchet is not even a top 20 problem on the Canucks.

 

[credulous]

Garland, Suter are pacing for seasons that are similar to what they did last year so I'm not sure where the complaints are.

garland put up 2.37 ev points per 60 last year and 1.84 ev points per 60 this year

the only forwards who have put up better numbers this year are aman and pdg and both in pretty small sample sizes

 

[supercanuck]

I don't think Tocc is a bad coach, but this team is not built well for his style, and he seems unwilling to bend/change. He has coached the creativity out of the team. At least half of the blame can be pointed at management, but coaches will always take the fall first.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think the thread should be "Management, do we really need them". They have really come out unscathed for all the drama and dysfunction that has occurred since they took over.

 

[ManVanFan]

garland put up 2.37 ev points per 60 last year and 1.84 ev points per 60 this year

the only forwards who have put up better numbers this year are aman and pdg and both in pretty small sample sizes

So Vancouver is finding pretty much the same thing that Wpg found out about Ehlers. Playing them more doesn't actually equal more success.

I don't think Tocc is a bad coach, but this team is not built well for his style, and he seems unwilling to bend/change. He has coached the creativity out of the team. At least half of the blame can be pointed at management, but coaches will always take the fall first.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I think the thread should be "Management, do we really need them". They have really come out unscathed for all the drama and dysfunction that has occurred since they took over.

I don't think any team is built for Tocchet because no team like that has ever existed. Except for maybe that first year Vegas team but no other Vegas team since.

 

[sensodyne17]

garland put up 2.37 ev points per 60 last year and 1.84 ev points per 60 this year

the only forwards who have put up better numbers this year are aman and pdg and both in pretty small sample sizes

Garland hasn't found chemistry with anyone this year and his main running mate this year is recovering from cancer/no training camp.

He's been mostly good all year but he's slumping right now.

The numbers are going to look bad across if we're not using context. I can't remember the last Canuck season where the entire organization from top to bottom has imploded. Despite all that, we're still in the wildcard hunt.

Everything that could possibly go wrong this year has gone wrong. It's a write-off year.

 

[Breakers]

Some comments in here are dangerously close to saying get players or reshape the roster that fit in Tochetts system which is embarrassingly stupid

Go ask Pittsburgh fans about that idea

 

[Nucker101]

I do wish he let the players be a bit more free flowing offensively and the offense was less predictable than cycle the puck back to the point with traffic in front. At the same time, it's tough to argue with his results. The team outperformed every expectation last year. His system is very effective for team defense.

The fact that they're in a playoff spot this year is probably the most you could ask for with Miller missing time and then getting traded, Hronek missing multiple weeks, Demko basically being out all year and Pettersson having the space jam aliens steal his powers.

I really do think his system raises this team's floor, but you do have to question if he limits the ceiling of teams due to the lack of offensive freedom. I know people love to say how this team was so close a WCF appearance last year but the Preds series could've gone either way with how low event it was. The Oilers were clearly the better team in R2 overall, the Canucks were the inferior team trying to make every game as low event as possible so it would come down to luckly bounces.

I think he's a good coach for a team that doesn't have realistic cup aspirations but wants to make the playoffs which is sadly where the Canucks are at and likely will be next year as well. He's a bad fit for a team trying to develop young talent while losing or a team that wants to win a cup due to the offensive restrictions he has in place.

 

[bossram]

Sorry why are we using an arbitrary cut-off date? To try to create a narrative or something?

I guess games pre Nov 15 don't count? Why are we not evaluating the overall body of work?

Hughes has been banged up for a while and been in and out of games.

Miller has played like sh!t with the Canucks and had to take a personal leave to miss a month. I guess that's also Tocchet's fault?

Garland, Suter are pacing for seasons that are similar to what they did last year so I'm not sure where the complaints are.

I'm not saying Tocchet isn't a defensive minded coach - his system is meant to mimic a playoff shut-down environment in which we saw last year. We didn't have a problem scoring goals. You can point to high PDO but this season we have completely imploded internally. Tocchet is not even top 10 in the list of problems right now.

I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Demko transformed from a Vezina candidate to Mr.Glass?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Petey has completely fell off a cliff?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Miller was playing like doodoo all year and had to go a month long leave of absence?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Boeser was concussed, and lost his playmaking 1C due to a forced trade and has been bad ever since?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Hoglander has been absolutely snake bitten all year and a non-factor all year after scoring 24 goals last year?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that his only puckmoving defenseman aside from Hughes also missed a chunk of the season in Hronek?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that we had to keep playing Juulsen/Friedman/Soucy/Forbort and had NO puck moving ability from the back-end (before we called up DPetey and acquired MP)?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault that Dakota Joshua had cancer and missed training camp and hasn't been up to par all year?
I guess it's Tocchet's fault this team is slow and not constructed to win 3v3 and keeps losing in OT?

Like... let's use our brains here and exercise some common sense. What happened to context? Like just watch the games... the guys are not getting it done right now and it's not due to coaching. Our top players (essentially the core) are either gone, hurt, or not playing like a top player (Demko, Miller, Petey, Boeser, Hughes). The season has been a trainwreck and Tocchet is not even a top 20 problem on the Canucks.

Now you're just listing stuff in a long diatribe about things I never mentioned and mostly agree with. Like when did I mention blaming Demko on Tocc? How would that impact the offense? This is just nonsensical. You're just reaching at this point.

I just referenced Dayal's tweet and those are the endpoints he used. If you want the full season data, they are 30th in scoring chance generation, 31, in high-danger chance generation, 29th in xG generation. Not materially different.

Garland and Suter are actually producing less efficiently than last season. The only reason the totals are still equal is because they're getting more ice time. They're producing less offense on a per minute basis. Your only example of a player exceeding expectations is Sherwood.

And yeah, watching the games is how you can actually conclude Tocc's system inhibits offense. They reflexively dump the puck in and almost never attempt a rush chance (other than Chytil). There is no interchange in the offensive zone, it's just point shots hoping for a bounce.

The offense was never fine last year. It was all PDO-driven. Like I said before, playing a no-offense, coin flip system might actually be the smartest strategy for this roster. But it is undeniable it inhibits offense.

 

[sensodyne17]

Now you're just listing stuff in a long diatribe about things I never mentioned and mostly agree with. Like when did I mention blaming Demko on Tocc? How would that impact the offense? This is just nonsensical. You're just reaching at this point.

I just referenced Dayal's tweet and those are the endpoints he used. If you want the full season data, they are 30th in scoring chance generation, 31, in high-danger chance generation, 29th in xG generation. Not materially different.

Garland and Suter are actually producing less efficiently than last season. The only reason the totals are still equal is because they're getting more ice time. They're producing less offense on a per minute basis. Your only example of a player exceeding expectations is Sherwood.

And yeah, watching the games is how you can actually conclude Tocc's system inhibits offense. They reflexively dump the puck in and almost never attempt a rush chance (other than Chytil). There is no interchange in the offensive zone, it's just point shots hoping for a bounce.

The offense was never fine last year. It was all PDO-driven. Like I said before, playing a no-offense, coin flip system might actually be the smartest strategy for this roster. But it is undeniable it inhibits offense.

Not having a Vezina calibre goalie in Demko and having to resort to Lankinen/Silovs doesn't impact the offense? Huh?

With a Vezina calibre goalie, your team can take way more risks to produce offense. When you rely on a Lankinen/Silovs combo, you want to play a tighter, checking style. If you don't think these things affect each other then you're too hyper-focused on stats without the ability to step back and look at the big picture. Aka tunnel vision.

I can tell you never played any sports in your life so I'm not going to engage any further.

 

[racerjoe]

Not having a Vezina calibre goalie in Demko and having to resort to Lankinen/Silovs doesn't impact the offense? Huh?

With a Vezina calibre goalie, your team can take way more risks to produce offense. When you rely on a Lankinen/Silovs combo, you want to play a tighter, checking style. If you don't think these things affect each other then you're too hyper-focused on stats without the ability to step back and look at the big picture. Aka tunnel vision.

I can tell you never played any sports in your life so I'm not going to engage any further.

With Silovs absolutely... I don't see it with Lankinen

 

[sensodyne17]

With Silovs absolutely... I don't see it with Lankinen

Lankinen's been great this year but he's still a journeyman 1A/1B goalie.

That's a huge drop off from the Vezina performance Demko put up last year.

Also, our stout defensive game has definitely helped Lankinen this year. I believe we are a top 5/10 defensive team by a lot of different metrics. Lankinens expected goal save percentage is average across the league, as good as he's been.

 

[racerjoe]

Lankinen's been great this year but he's still a journeyman 1A/1B goalie.

That's a huge drop off from the Vezina performance Demko put up last year.

Also, our stout defensive game has definitely helped Lankinen this year. I believe we are a top 5/10 defensive team by a lot of different metrics. Lankinens expected goal save percentage is average across the league, as good as he's been.

I agree he is not at good as Demko when Demko is on and playing well. But as you said he is still a 1A/1B goalie... its not a big enough drop for what you are talking about.

 

[bossram]

Not having a Vezina calibre goalie in Demko and having to resort to Lankinen/Silovs doesn't impact the offense? Huh?

With a Vezina calibre goalie, your team can take way more risks to produce offense. When you rely on a Lankinen/Silovs combo, you want to play a tighter, checking style. If you don't think these things affect each other then you're too hyper-focused on stats without the ability to step back and look at the big picture. Aka tunnel vision.

I can tell you never played any sports in your life so I'm not going to engage any further.

Lankinen's been their best goalie this season by far. Are they scared to take risks with them?

Sorry man, I guess I have to defer to your superior wisdom learned from playing kickball at recess. Big sports guy you are!

 

[sensodyne17]

I agree he is not at good as Demko when Demko is on and playing well. But as you said he is still a 1A/1B goalie... its not a big enough drop for what you are talking about.

Lankinen's been their best goalie this season by far. Are they scared to take risks with them?

Sorry man, I guess I have to defer to your superior wisdom learned from playing kickball at recess. Big sports guy you are!

Sorry guys but Lankinen was a free agent for a long time and unwanted by 31 NHL teams.

Has it ever clicked in your guys’ mind that this tight defensive style that Tocchet has instilled has helped Lankinen play well?

It’s not “coaching systems” when you go from Vezina Demko to journeymen Lankinen and Silovs. We have one of the worst save percentages by team this year.

If you guys want a riskier, fast paced tempo, we are just going to lose 5-3 instead of 2-1 right now. How is that conducive to the end goal of winning?

 

[bossram]

Sorry guys but Lankinen was a free agent for a long time and unwanted by 31 NHL teams.

Has it ever clicked in your guys’ mind that this tight defensive style that Tocchet has instilled has helped Lankinen play well?

It’s not “coaching systems” when you go from Vezina Demko to journeymen Lankinen and Silovs. We have one of the worst save percentages by team this year.

If you guys want a riskier, fast paced tempo, we are just going to lose 5-3 instead of 2-1 right now. How is that conducive to the end goal of winning?

Per NST, this season the Canucks are 5th best in scoring chance prevention, 12th best in high-danger chance prevention, and 3rd in xG prevention.

Last season they were 3rd, 8th, and 6th best in those categories. If anything they were better defensively last year.

Now your new argument is that for this season, Tocc has undergone a shift in philosophy to play even more defensively in service of helping their goaltenders. And yet this defensive shift hasn't affected their offensive generation. Interesting.