Speculation: Tocchet, do we really need him?

[Siludin]

Canucks are using the absence of playmaker Miller, slump of F Elias Pettersson, the speed of newly-acquired Drew O'Connor and Filip Chytil, and the defensive prowess of Marcus Pettersson to dicate the style of play required to win with the current roster: the trap.

 

[bossram]

They are dictating play, outside of the Utah game on a back to back, where obviously they weren't very good. Did you forget how good they were against Colorado and Toronto? How good they were against Vegas aside from taking so many penalties? The finish isn't there, and obviously they have some guys underperforming and are missing their best player. But they are overall playing good hockey and getting lots of chances despite not having great personnel. That's a coach who's doing a great job.

When you hear his comments about not throwing the puck away, hitting the net, attacking right away and not hesitating, and moving your feet, these are exactly the right buttons to be pushing. No other coach has identified the right issues so clearly.

They didn't dictate play against UTA. They didn't dictate play against VGK. This COL game you keep referencing also really wasn't a banner performance - Demko bailed them out as they bled 5-alarm chances. They played hard, but certainly did not dictate play. Yeah, they were good against Toronto. Yay! One game where they controlled play!

The bolded absolutely displays you know nothing. You don't watch the games and don't look at stats either. Lots of chances? Hahahahahahahahahhahhahahahah.

 

[kanucks25]

I seem to be resident Tocchet apologist around here but there's no point trying to convince the mob. So this will be the last post I make on the subject for the rest of the season:

If you think this roster is good enough to be a legitimate playoff threat, give your head a shake. This is a bubble roster and we may yet still make the playoffs. You fire the coach if the roster is underperforming. This roster is not underperforming, it's exactly where it should be in the standings.

If our highest paid player wasn't a ghost (and/or we had some better luck with injuries), we'd firmly be in a playoff spot yet still not a contender.

We suck and we're boring, it's awful; I disagree that coaching is the problem but people can believe what they want based on the circumstances.

 

[sensodyne17]

He had lucky charms falling out of his ass last year. Now they're gone. And we're seeing what he actually is. This is how he coached Arizona. This is how he coached last season. It's the same: No offense, preach defense. Spam point shots, never take risks.

Has anyone actually seen the rosters that Tocchet coached in Arizona before speaking on it?

They were pure dog crap... spending probably the least amount of money in the NHL. Tocchet was making chicken salad out of chicken shit.

Tocchet has said many times throughout the year that players need to hold onto to the puck longer and need to shoot more and need to go to the dirty areas. Do people really think that the coach tells the team hey, let's not get any shots on net and double clutch and just throw shots from the point? Like let's exercise some common sense here.

Let's look at the facts.

1. Top players have been hurt/absent ALL year long... (Demko, Boeser, Hronek, Miller, Hughes, Joshua, Petey)
2. Goaltending has mostly been atrocious all year (22nd in SVP% even after back-to-back great games from Lankinen and Silovs). Last year we had a vezina goalie... this year we've been relying on our journeyman backup.
3. JTM implodes and the org has no choice (by the sounds of it) but to trade him our 1C for pennies on the dollar.
4. Petey making 11.6M playing like a third line center and likely playing through some sort of injury or mental yips
5. Carson Soucy (who was great last year) and Nils Hoglander (though he has looked much better recently) got space jammed this year alongside Petey. That's another 6M that has suddenly become more or less useless overnight.

Does everyone suddenly think these are system issues? Who realistically can we say is being held back by a system? The problem is that this team has gone through probably the worst luck out of any team in the NHL this year... insane amount of injuries to top guys, half of the roster (or more) regressing, crazy amount of drama, going from Vezina goaltending to one of the worst in the league.

Despite all this... the Canucks are in a wildcard position. How crazy is that? Are scoring goals a challenge right now? Yes - but the Canucks are also great at defending, one of the top teams in Goals Against. Scoring goals will be a challenge for any team when your Norris offensive play driving defenseman has been hurt all year and you go from 2 playdriving 1Cs to zero 1Cs. When your top guys aren't your top guys, every team is going to have trouble scoring regardless who the coach is.

I know it's not a coaching issue because your tertiary/secondary role players are still producing and having good years. For the most part, Garland, DeBrusk, Suter, Sherwood, Myers, Blueger and other role players have been playing up to their standards this year. The top guys have been disappointing (Petey, Boeser, Miller while he was here, Hughes). Hughes is only disappointing from an availability/injury perspective.

I just don't know what coaching system change would materially improve the roster. Without Hughes and Petey playing like doodoo, the best way to win with the currently constructed roster is to eek out 3-2, and 2-1 games.

Tocchet is NOT the problem. You're not scoring any goals with the current concoction of this lineup. Firing another coach for this "core" is one of the dumbest things you could do at this point.

Let's all exercise some common sense.

 

[sensodyne17]

I seem to be resident Tocchet apologist around here but there's no point trying to convince the mob. So this will be the last post I make on the subject for the rest of the season:

If you think this roster is good enough to be a legitimate playoff threat, give your head a shake. This is a bubble roster and we may yet still make the playoffs. You fire the coach if the roster is underperforming. This roster is not underperforming, it's exactly where it should be in the standings.

If our highest paid player wasn't a ghost (and/or we had some better luck with injuries), we'd firmly be in a playoff spot yet still not a contender.

We suck and we're boring, it's awful; I disagree that coaching is the problem but people can believe what they want based on the circumstances.

Correct.

Coaching is a problem when the roster as a whole is underachieving and players are being held back to their potential. Who's being held back right now?

I don't see how the system is holding back anyone right now. Petey has been AWFUL all year and double clutching, not shooting, not moving his feet and playing like a third line center. A superstar is supposed to be able to perform in any system. That's like saying Kevin Durant can't score buckets because of the "system".

Boeser - more or less the same... but he also had a concussion earlier in the year so I give him some slack. He's also looked awful without JTM. We all know he's not a play driver and relies on a playmaking center to unlock his potential. He doesn't have his running mate anymore and looks lost on the ice. Is Brock not skating, making terrible reads, not hitting the net, overpassing also a coaching issue?

We have two, maybe two and a half top six players right now... maybe one of the worst top sixes in the NHL. It is what it is. Canucks need a major overhaul upfront. It's not a coaching problem.

 

[thecupismine]

This is the Vigneault conversation during the 2007/2008 season all over again. Win the Jack Adams after a great yet lucky year, then everything falls off the rails next year.

You got one guy playing at a Hart level (Luongo/Hughes) who you want to build around, a defense that can’t stay healthy, and an extremely pop-gun offense. Heck, a lot of the older core leadership guys left at the end of that season (Linden/Naslund/BMo), and we’re trending in that direction again (Miller/Boeser).

Like they did with Vigneault, you give the guy some grace after this season, but let him know the expectations are to play a more up-tempo style next year. Two years later that same coach who couldn't coach offense, who had drilled Montreal/Vancouver into only playing the trap, put together the 2nd best offense, and then the best offense in the league the year after.

Tocchet is a good coach, best we've had since - Alvin needs to get him the horses to execute this off-season and then evaluate half way through next year.

 

[bossram]

Has anyone actually seen the rosters that Tocchet coached in Arizona before speaking on it?

They were pure dog crap... spending probably the least amount of money in the NHL. Tocchet was making chicken salad out of chicken shit.

Tocchet has said many times throughout the year that players need to hold onto to the puck longer and need to shoot more and need to go to the dirty areas. Do people really think that the coach tells the team hey, let's not get any shots on net and double clutch and just throw shots from the point? Like let's exercise some common sense here.

Let's look at the facts.

1. Top players have been hurt/absent ALL year long... (Demko, Boeser, Hronek, Miller, Hughes, Joshua, Petey)
2. Goaltending has mostly been atrocious all year (22nd in SVP% even after back-to-back great games from Lankinen and Silovs). Last year we had a vezina goalie... this year we've been relying on our journeyman backup.
3. JTM implodes and the org has no choice (by the sounds of it) but to trade him our 1C for pennies on the dollar.
4. Petey making 11.6M playing like a third line center and likely playing through some sort of injury or mental yips
5. Carson Soucy (who was great last year) and Nils Hoglander (though he has looked much better recently) got space jammed this year alongside Petey. That's another 6M that has suddenly become more or less useless overnight.

Does everyone suddenly think these are system issues? Who realistically can we say is being held back by a system? The problem is that this team has gone through probably the worst luck out of any team in the NHL this year... insane amount of injuries to top guys, half of the roster (or more) regressing, crazy amount of drama, going from Vezina goaltending to one of the worst in the league.

Despite all this... the Canucks are in a wildcard position. How crazy is that? Are scoring goals a challenge right now? Yes - but the Canucks are also great at defending, one of the top teams in Goals Against. Scoring goals will be a challenge for any team when your Norris offensive play driving defenseman has been hurt all year and you go from 2 playdriving 1Cs to zero 1Cs. When your top guys aren't your top guys, every team is going to have trouble scoring regardless who the coach is.

I know it's not a coaching issue because your tertiary/secondary role players are still producing and having good years. For the most part, Garland, DeBrusk, Suter, Sherwood, Myers, Blueger and other role players have been playing up to their standards this year. The top guys have been disappointing (Petey, Boeser, Miller while he was here, Hughes). Hughes is only disappointing from an availability/injury perspective.

I just don't know what coaching system change would materially improve the roster. Without Hughes and Petey playing like doodoo, the best way to win with the currently constructed roster is to eek out 3-2, and 2-1 games.

Tocchet is NOT the problem. You're not scoring any goals with the current concoction of this lineup. Firing another coach for this "core" is one of the dumbest things you could do at this point.

Let's all exercise some common sense.

I'm not saying Tocc is a bad coach. I'm saying the offensive issues are systemic, and by design. You're correct. Tocc wants to play games to try and win 2-1. He played the same style last season, but just got luckier with it.

I don't care what Tocc says publicly about his offensive system. They don't create anything and they didn't create much last season either. No one carries the puck in the zone or tries to attack off the rush. Chytil sticks out in this regard because he's the only one who attempts to do something off a zone entry. It's not a coincidence it's the new guy. A guy like Debrusk was a beast in the Toronto playoff series last season, he was attacking the net, trying to power move defenders. Now whenever he hits the blueline he just reflexively dumps it in. This is a system issue.

They've been a poor chance generation team during Tocc's entire tenure. Private data shows they are the worst in the league at creating rush chances. Yes, it worked out better last year because they were more fortunate (PDO + injury luck). This season it's the opposite. But the underlying process is the same.

Tocc is running a system where he tries to make the outcome of a game a coinflip - get a random deflection goal, hold your own defensively, and win 2-1. Sometimes the random bounce goes against you and you lose. On average, it evens out and you have an average-ish record. It's a high floor system, but vastly limits your ceiling. This might actually be the best approach for this Canucks' roster, but the lack of offensive creation and risk-taking is absolutely by design.

 

[F A N]

I seem to be resident Tocchet apologist around here but there's no point trying to convince the mob. So this will be the last post I make on the subject for the rest of the season:

If you think this roster is good enough to be a legitimate playoff threat, give your head a shake. This is a bubble roster and we may yet still make the playoffs. You fire the coach if the roster is underperforming. This roster is not underperforming, it's exactly where it should be in the standings.

If our highest paid player wasn't a ghost (and/or we had some better luck with injuries), we'd firmly be in a playoff spot yet still not a contender.

We suck and we're boring, it's awful; I disagree that coaching is the problem but people can believe what they want based on the circumstances.

I think the coaching staff warrants a deeper look just based on the fact that Tocchet needs and extension and usually those are at least 2 year commitments.

I think with every coach there are almost always going to be player(s) that underperforms due to stylistic fit. What we need to make sure are that the underachieving guys aren't guys you can win with anyways and guys that are performing well are guys you can win with.

My concern is that we're seeing what Coyotes fans have been complaining about. Defensive first when you have no firepower up front is fine but there has to be a balance. With the Coyotes we did see offensive players struggle and underachieve especially younger players. Take Schmaltz and Keller. Both seem to have regressed under Tocchet and then saw an immediate bump in production with a coaching change. Sometimes you just got to let some of details go and let the creative players create.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I seem to be resident Tocchet apologist around here but there's no point trying to convince the mob. So this will be the last post I make on the subject for the rest of the season:

If you think this roster is good enough to be a legitimate playoff threat, give your head a shake. This is a bubble roster and we may yet still make the playoffs. You fire the coach if the roster is underperforming. This roster is not underperforming, it's exactly where it should be in the standings.

If our highest paid player wasn't a ghost (and/or we had some better luck with injuries), we'd firmly be in a playoff spot yet still not a contender.

We suck and we're boring, it's awful; I disagree that coaching is the problem but people can believe what they want based on the circumstances.

This isnt a roster that is good enough to be a cup threat.

Neither was last years roster.

 

[sensodyne17]

I think the coaching staff warrants a deeper look just based on the fact that Tocchet needs and extension and usually those are at least 2 year commitments.

I think with every coach there are almost always going to be player(s) that underperforms due to stylistic fit. What we need to make sure are that the underachieving guys aren't guys you can win with anyways and guys that are performing well are guys you can win with.

My concern is that we're seeing what Coyotes fans have been complaining about. Defensive first when you have no firepower up front is fine but there has to be a balance. With the Coyotes we did see offensive players struggle and underachieve especially younger players. Take Schmaltz and Keller. Both seem to have regressed under Tocchet and then saw an immediate bump in production with a coaching change. Sometimes you just got to let some of details go and let the creative players create.

Schmaltz and Keller were upcoming young players.

Keller had 65 points in his rookie year under Tocchet.

A washed up Kessel had 43 points in 56 games.

Chycrun had his best offensive year with 41 points in 56 games under Tocch.

Garland had his best year with 39 in 49 under Tocch.

I'm not saying Tocc is a bad coach. I'm saying the offensive issues are systemic, and by design. You're correct. Tocc wants to play games to try and win 2-1. He played the same style last season, but just got luckier with it.

I don't care what Tocc says publicly about his offensive system. They don't create anything and they didn't create much last season either. No one carries the puck in the zone or tries to attack off the rush. Chytil sticks out in this regard because he's the only one who attempts to do something off a zone entry. It's not a coincidence it's the new guy. A guy like Debrusk was a beast in the Toronto playoff series last season, he was attacking the net, trying to power move defenders. Now whenever he hits the blueline he just reflexively dumps it in. This is a system issue.

They've been a poor chance generation team during Tocc's entire tenure. Private data shows they are the worst in the league at creating rush chances. Yes, it worked out better last year because they were more fortunate (PDO + injury luck). This season it's the opposite. But the underlying process is the same.

Tocc is running a system where he tries to make the outcome of a game a coinflip - get a random deflection goal, hold your own defensively, and win 2-1. Sometimes the random bounce goes against you and you lose. On average, it evens out and you have an average-ish record. It's a high floor system, but vastly limits your ceiling. This might actually be the best approach for this Canucks' roster, but the lack of offensive creation and risk-taking is absolutely by design.

Probably because the roster is devoid of offensive talent? And is slow? And can't play drive? And afraid of the dirty areas? DeBrusk has NEVER been a play driver... cmon man. He's a supplementary goal scoring forward.

Who can drive play in this lineup outside of Hughes? Sometimes Garland... maybe Chytil because he has speed and hands. Who else? Not Petey. Not Boeser. Not DeBrusk.

It's not a coaching issue man. Just watch the games. We have Drew O' Connor and Kiefer Sherwood in the top six. It's a personnel thing... it's clear as day.

 

[bossram]

Probably because the roster is devoid of offensive talent? And is slow? And can't play drive? And afraid of the dirty areas? DeBrusk has NEVER been a play driver... cmon man. He's a supplementary goal scoring forward.

Who can drive play in this lineup outside of Hughes? Sometimes Garland... maybe Chytil because he has speed and hands. Who else? Not Petey. Not Boeser. Not DeBrusk.

It's not a coaching issue man. Just watch the games. We have Drew O' Connor and Kiefer Sherwood in the top six. It's a personnel thing... it's clear as day.

You have no legitimate counter arguments. No objective evidence. . Aight bro. I'll "watch the games" as they dump the puck in 90 times per game, by design.

 

[F A N]

Schmaltz and Keller were upcoming young players.

Keller had 65 points in his rookie year under Tocchet.

A washed up Kessel had 43 points in 56 games.

And then what happened to Keller after his rookie year? Regressed until the coaching change? And Schmaltz? Did he progress like an "upcoming young player" playing under Tocchet?

Chycrun had his best offensive year with 41 points in 56 games under Tocch.

Garland had his best year with 39 in 49 under Tocch.

Chychrun probably develops under any coach but I don't have any issues with Tocchet developing defensemen so far (granted there's not much to go by).

Garland clearly excels under Tocchet and is a stylistic fit.

 

[sensodyne17]

You have no legitimate counter arguments. No objective evidence. . Aight bro. I'll "watch the games" as they dump the puck in 90 times per game, by design.

Tocchet: "Team needs to hang onto the puck more and not dump it in and make a play"

Fans: "OMG DUMP AND CHASE"

Has it occurred to you that the current forward personnel is not good and conducive to scoring goals? The symptom of the dump and chase is that the personnel is not good enough... who can skate and bring the puck in right now outside of Hughes? Chytil? Garland? Two guys out of how many?

I'm not disagreeing that Tocch has a tight, defensive style/approach to the game. The argument is that this team on offense, as constructed, is not good enough. We have Sherwood and DOC in our top six with Petey and Boeser playing like third liners right now. We have Hoglander snakebitten and Joshua still trying to get his game up to speed with no training camp/recovering from cancer.

Getting a new a coach to score more goals and then give up more goals as a result of a higher risk environment is just the going down the Bruce Boudreau path again - we already saw how that went.

Canucks have massive work to do to revamp the forward group.

And then what happened to Keller after his rookie year? Regressed until the coaching change? And Schmaltz? Did he progress like an "upcoming young player" playing under Tocchet?


Chychrun probably develops under any coach but I don't have any issues with Tocchet developing defensemen so far (granted there's not much to go by).

Garland clearly excels under Tocchet and is a stylistic fit.

And what was the record under the new coach?

 

[Breakers]

boeser can't have controlled entries to save his life
Pettersson is ok but not great
Garland is very good at it
debrusk sucks at it
Hoglander is pretty decent

 

[PuckMunchkin]

boeser can't have controlled entries to save his life
Pettersson is ok but not great
Garland is very good at it
debrusk sucks at it
Hoglander is pretty decent

QH can do it at will with a broken hand

 

[VanJack]

In his post-game pressers, Tocchet is going out of his way to lament that too many times out on the ice, the players just 'can't make a play'.

They don't beat anybody one on one; or spring somebody with a pass. It's basically off the wall or glass and out; and then a neutral zone 'shoot-in'. And both plays involve a loss of possession.

Not much wonder they're lucky to generate five SOG a period; and spend half a period either killing penalties or chasing in their own zone. So it seems obvious to me, that Tocchet is hinting that they 'just don't have the horses' right now.

But this reminds me of Tocchet's Arizona Coyotes teams that used to come into Rogers Arena and just dumb it down. They had a few decent players like Doan and OEL in his prime.....but it was just suffocating and boring defense that kept them competitive.

I suppose it can be effective for a season or so.....but eventually it just becomes too hard to keep grinding it out, night after night. And I think the Canucks might be reaching that point of just 'zeroing it all out'.

 

[F A N]

And what was the record under the new coach?

Well they did trade away arguably their best forward and their 2nd best Dman. Regardless the point isn't that Tocchet isn't good at coaching a bad team. Personally I see very little value in employing a coach who can get the best out of a bad team. I prefer a coach who can get the best out of a good team because ultimately that's the goal.

My main overarching point is that management should decide the style of play they want the Canucks to play and have our head coach execute that style. It's also important that it's a style of play that allows the Canucks to win. There's a lot of decisions that need to be made up front so I hope management figures things out quickly.

 

[Jyrki21]

He keeps saying this but his low event hockey has followed him wherever he has coached.

I don't think he would deny that his style is low-event. He says he's not coaching players not to shoot, and I do believe him.

Here is what I said in yesterday's GDT -- I do think it is largely a fail on the players' part:

I don’t even think they are regularly passing up prime shooting opportunities. They just get blocked every time they try.

Rather, they aren’t getting prime shooting opportunities, which is way more concerning. They aren’t quick enough (whether their skating or their puck movement) to get the puck somewhere useful.

I just watched the Washington Capitals repeatedly get grade-A scoring chances against an Oiler team that looked Lemaire-ian against the Canucks in last year’s playoffs. The Canucks are just massively lacking offensively.

Now I also think with a better blueline the Canucks could have afforded to go a little higher-event than they might have at the start of the year without getting killed. But now with Demko disappearing as an option we have a sudden drop in certainty in goal, so this brings back the dilemma. (And it's not like the defense corps is amazing either).

I'm not convinced Tocchet is returning next year (due to his own accord and an unwillingness to pony up cash), so perhaps it will be moot. I also recognize that simply shuffling the deck can have effects, and famously a coaching change can do that.

There's also the fact that half of this forum can't spell his name, so it would be nice to move past that.

 

[VanJack]

Well they did trade away arguably their best forward and their 2nd best Dman. Regardless the point isn't that Tocchet isn't good at coaching a bad team. Personally I see very little value in employing a coach who can get the best out of a bad team. I prefer a coach who can get the best out of a good team because ultimately that's the goal.

My main overarching point is that management should decide the style of play they want the Canucks to play and have our head coach execute that style. It's also important that it's a style of play that allows the Canucks to win. There's a lot of decisions that need to be made up front so I hope management figures things out quickly.

Trading their 'second best d-man'? I'm having trouble remembering who that might have been. Are we referring to OEL? He was actually bought out. And Tanev left as a free agent.

 

[krutovsdonut]

crazy thread blaming the coach. this team is still playing solid defence. the team has three game breakers last year plus garland and joshua on an extended heater. right now it has none of that

the team can't or won't forecheck this year and is not consistently breaking down opposing defences through extended possession. but the team won like crazy last year playing the same patient selective shooting game they are playing now. it's smart hockey even if it is boring in the absence of any game breakers.

 

[bossram]

Tocchet: "Team needs to hang onto the puck more and not dump it in and make a play"

Fans: "OMG DUMP AND CHASE"

Has it occurred to you that the current forward personnel is not good and conducive to scoring goals? The symptom of the dump and chase is that the personnel is not good enough... who can skate and bring the puck in right now outside of Hughes? Chytil? Garland? Two guys out of how many?

I'm not disagreeing that Tocch has a tight, defensive style/approach to the game. The argument is that this team on offense, as constructed, is not good enough. We have Sherwood and DOC in our top six with Petey and Boeser playing like third liners right now. We have Hoglander snakebitten and Joshua still trying to get his game up to speed with no training camp/recovering from cancer.

The Canucks are basically last in the league in offensive creation. You're telling me they have less talent than the likes of Seattle, Chicago, SJ, Anaheim, etc.? Or is Tocc impeding their offensive creation?

 

[beachcomber]

Canucks are in the mushy middle. Not enough talent to contend. Tocchet is doing the best he can with a middling roster. Maybe some of the floor hockey crowd here can actually give us an alternative and the reasons why.

 

[Coffee]

Ironically this might end up being one of those long multi year running threads that gets bumped and revived every now and then