Prospect Info: Timothy Liljegren

[JT AM da real deal]

Here is an example:

Puck is in the corner. Gardiner has two options.

Option 1 = retrieve puck and take hit.

Option 2 = slow down initiate contact first with opposing player so that he can bear hug him and go into the boards then take the puck.

He literally does option 2 90% of the time.

Instead of skating away and clearing space OR making quick play and taking hit he tries to draw opposing player in close and causes turnovers.

He is scared. Anyone who has played defense knows. Lots of pressure on Gards and he is a give away machine. NHL regular season his offense overshadows his defense. NHL playoffs when guys are trying to hurt you he can't handle it. Best we move on from him. and now that he has back problems he will be a problem for whoever signs him.

Lily does not play this way. He will take the hit. He goes down a lot but he will take the hit. From what I can see and I have seen almost all Marlie and Leaf home games I would take Lily on my defense before Gards. He does not always get the boards right yet and I think it is adjustments from larger ice game to smaller ice game.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

If the leafs are tight to the cap they may be forced to call them up.

I hope not. Rushing D to NHL is always a mistake.

 

[Eye Test]

Here is an example:

Puck is in the corner. Gardiner has two options.

Option 1 = retrieve puck and take hit.

Option 2 = slow down initiate contact first with opposing player so that he can bear hug him and go into the boards then take the puck.

He literally does option 2 90% of the time.

Instead of skating away and clearing space OR making quick play and taking hit he tries to draw opposing player in close and causes turnovers.

That’s false again. Gardiner literally does the exact opposite of that, that’s what slower non mobile defenseman do(polak does that every shift).

Gardiner closes the gap quickly forcing the player to a) get the puck poked off their sticks(or slows them down enough for our backchekers to take the puck away) and then the leafs forwards transition up the ice or b. Closes the gap quickly and the opponents dump the puck in because that’s really the only option. Then since he’s a great skater he pivots and retrieves the puck in motion while the forward chases in his dump in. Gardiner then skates the puck out or if he sees a quick stretch pass will make it immediately becaus the forechexker is behind him which leads to solid transition up the ice. At no time does gardiner initiate contact to bear hug forwards.

 

[Prominence]

^ yeah that’s true. I have seen it where gardiner and the opposing f1 are skating for the puck, he slows down, waits for the opposing f1 to take the puck and then gardiner tries to immediately strip the puck. He also tries to hip fake or juke to trick the f1. Only problem is that most forecheckers have figured out his scheme and have decided to just skate hard into the boards since gardiner avoids contact. As a result, he has gotten less effective.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

That’s false again. Gardiner literally does the exact opposite of that, that’s what slower non mobile defenseman do(polak does that every shift).

Gardiner closes the gap quickly forcing the player to a) get the puck poked off their sticks(or slows them down enough for our backchekers to take the puck away) and then the leafs forwards transition up the ice or b. Closes the gap quickly and the opponents dump the puck in because that’s really the only option. Then since he’s a great skater he pivots and retrieves the puck in motion while the forward chases in his dump in. Gardiner then skates the puck out or if he sees a quick stretch pass will make it immediately becaus the forechexker is behind him which leads to solid transition up the ice. At no time does gardiner initiate contact to bear hug forwards.

He is a chicken. He always has been and always will be. He should have stuck to playing C in middle of ice where you can play that way.

 

[Al14]

He is a chicken. He always has been and always will be. He should have stuck to playing C in middle of ice where you can play that way.

From my recollections, before his major concussion, he used to hussle back to the puck, retrieve it, and try to move up the ice before the forechecker got on him.

After his major concussion, he started to lollygag back with the intent to arrive to the puck at the same time as the forechecker. I think he did this to avoid turning with the puck and getting hit by the advancing forechecker.

So, yes, he plays the way he does because of fear of taking another hit that might cause another concussion.

Gardiner has the speed to get back in a hurry, however, fear has him somewhat paralyzed to use it, when going back to retrieve pucks shot into his D zone.

JMHO.

 

[kb]

I'm with the "Lilly is not better defensively then Gardiner"
Honestly, Jake's partners make him look worse then he is. When Zaitsev is not with him, Gardiner is a lot better.

I think it's the pairing. Zaitsev looked much better away from Jake too. Jake is too unpredictable, and Z needs a structured guy to play with.

 

[GoldenGOOSE]

Lilly is a really great add. I am watching Boston manhandle Carolina tonight. Jeez they are a good team, they might very well win the Cup.

We have a good team. Boston is very good.

 

[LeafSteel]

Why do we do this?

Many thanks to Gardiner, but he’s not going to be back, and Liljegren is our future.

I say it’s Liljegren’s spot to lose on the 3rd pairing and Dubas sees it that way.

If he’s upgrading our RHD, it’s the 1st and 2nd pairing he’s focused on. Liljegren I think starts the season a Leaf.

 

[Papi 4 Hart]

That’s false again. Gardiner literally does the exact opposite of that, that’s what slower non mobile defenseman do(polak does that every shift).

Gardiner closes the gap quickly forcing the player to a) get the puck poked off their sticks(or slows them down enough for our backchekers to take the puck away) and then the leafs forwards transition up the ice or b. Closes the gap quickly and the opponents dump the puck in because that’s really the only option. Then since he’s a great skater he pivots and retrieves the puck in motion while the forward chases in his dump in. Gardiner then skates the puck out or if he sees a quick stretch pass will make it immediately becaus the forechexker is behind him which leads to solid transition up the ice. At no time does gardiner initiate contact to bear hug forwards.

You are not even reading what I am suggesting. I am referring to his play for loose puck battles. Not his defensive play.



This is one game of examples of his non chalant play with the puck 3:55 is probably the best example.

Liljegren is a lot more prompt on his puck moving and decision making is my main point. Gardiner tries to use his body to fend a guy off when he can simply move the puck or make a simple play up the boards. Liljegren makes the simple play a lot more.

 

[GoldenGOOSE]

Dubas is too smart to put any money into Gardiner, end of story. Guy is just. .. A goner. Nothing to discuss here.

 

[tmlms13]

Rosen/Borgman/Lily/Sandin. Given the amount of stud Swedish defenseman in the NHL right now that not a bad plan.

 

[Dreakmur]

Dubas is too smart to put any money into Gardiner, end of story. Guy is just. .. A goner. Nothing to discuss here.

I think Dubas really likes Gardiner, and would keep him if he could.

 

[ktownhockey]

friendly advice, plus/minus is not a useful stat for evaluating individuals, and the format it's kept in makes it almost valueless for any reason

It's not a great stat but there is SOME value when it happens to the same player in the same situations I feel. I just think Jake needs to move on. Get a cozy contract somewhere and do what he does for them. He's done with the leafs so we don't need to worry about everyone's hate on him. Personally, I like Jake but whether it's the moment or just plain bad luck he's been exposed in pivotal moments.

Lily, on the other hand should not be thrown into the fire next season. He should get a run maybe at times as a call up but he'll be a 20 year old D man and needs more polish. The funny thing is some people think Sandin is going to be in the Leafs line up. Sandin will be a 19 year old d man next year. Let's not rush here. Rosen will be in the lineup, add a UFA RHD D who can actually defend and play and then let our two young D prospects develop. In a few years we will all be happy we did it. Just my thoughts but I think it's the right move. They are so young.

I meant to say also if Sandin is Heiskanen level in the NHL in pre season next year sign him up as a 19 year old d man. Highly doubtful, but one could wish.

 

[francis246]

Like to see him up in this cap crunch year.

Im sure Dubas is looking for options but Hainsey was solid down the stretch and the playoffs so I would try and grab him for another year and:

Reilly/Hainsey
Muzzin/Zaitsev
Dermott/Liljegren

Looks good to me while Sandin marinates for a bit longer. Sandin may even be able to come in earlier if he continues his amazing progress.

Since the Muzzin trade, defense certainly hasnt been the biggest issue, thats for sure.

Hell no to another year of Hainsey. The guy will be 38, time to move on from him. He can’t play top minutes anymore

 

[Randy Randerson]

It's not a great stat but there is SOME value when it happens to the same player in the same situations I feel. I just think Jake needs to move on. Get a cozy contract somewhere and do what he does for them. He's done with the leafs so we don't need to worry about everyone's hate on him. Personally, I like Jake but whether it's the moment or just plain bad luck he's been exposed in pivotal moments.

Lily, on the other hand should not be thrown into the fire next season. He should get a run maybe at times as a call up but he'll be a 20 year old D man and needs more polish. The funny thing is some people think Sandin is going to be in the Leafs line up. Sandin will be a 19 year old d man next year. Let's not rush here. Rosen will be in the lineup, add a UFA RHD D who can actually defend and play and then let our two young D prospects develop. In a few years we will all be happy we did it. Just my thoughts but I think it's the right move. They are so young.

I meant to say also if Sandin is Heiskanen level in the NHL in pre season next year sign him up as a 19 year old d man. Highly doubtful, but one could wish.

plus/minus says more about a guys' usage than his abilities, but there's so many better metrics I would just avoid it entirely.

I think there's a chance that Liljegren is a full time bottom pairing player next year, but if that happens I think it's only if he gets a shot and shows that he can handle it. If he struggles, he goes down. But I think given the tools and how he has handled a big role on the Marlies that there's reason to think he's probably ready for that.

Sandin should get at least another year in the minors too, maybe a couple. Heiskanen is probably a big ask as a result for him, but he's looking like an impact prospect

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Liljegren reminds me of a young Stralman.

Id like to bring in Stralman to mentor his transition to the NHL.

Honestly, if they can ship out Zaitsev, I'm all for a short-term overpay on Stralman to mentor young Tim.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

You are not even reading what I am suggesting. I am referring to his play for loose puck battles. Not his defensive play.



This is one game of examples of his non chalant play with the puck 3:55 is probably the best example.

Liljegren is a lot more prompt on his puck moving and decision making is my main point. Gardiner tries to use his body to fend a guy off when he can simply move the puck or make a simple play up the boards. Liljegren makes the simple play a lot more.

TBH you are showing the worst of Gards - his defensive game is weak. But he makes a lot of very good offensive plays too. But Gards will never change his ways which is why his dad taught/coached him a centre. I have spoken to his dad a few times and was told by him that he was told he would have a much better chance in NHL as a D. So he switched. I could see it the first time I watched him play. He thinks D like a C. I give him credit he did his best and is one of better D skaters in league. But the training and reps missing for many years show. He will never think game as a defender. It is one of big reasons his game is so unstructured. Let's hope Gards gets a good contract somewhere else. But Lily was trained as a D man and he is not scared of taking a big hit. Guys who are scared of taking a big hit will never succeed in the NHL.

 

[Eye Test]

You are not even reading what I am suggesting. I am referring to his play for loose puck battles. Not his defensive play.



This is one game of examples of his non chalant play with the puck 3:55 is probably the best example.

Liljegren is a lot more prompt on his puck moving and decision making is my main point. Gardiner tries to use his body to fend a guy off when he can simply move the puck or make a simple play up the boards. Liljegren makes the simple play a lot more.

I’ll stop commenting because a) this is a lilly thread and b) you keep contradicting yourself without even knowing it. The first time you said he slows down and then initiates contact by bear hugging the forechecker which is false. Now you show a video at 3:55 and saying you are referring to his loose puck battles but in the clip at 3:55 it’s him WITH the puck lol so it’s not even a loose puck battle or defensive play...

Cheers.

 

[Gary Nylund]

TBH you are showing the worst of Gards - his defensive game is weak. But he makes a lot of very good offensive plays too. But Gards will never change his ways which is why his dad taught/coached him a centre. I have spoken to his dad a few times and was told by him that he was told he would have a much better chance in NHL as a D. So he switched. I could see it the first time I watched him play. He thinks D like a C. I give him credit he did his best and is one of better D skaters in league. But the training and reps missing for many years show. He will never think game as a defender. It is one of big reasons his game is so unstructured. Let's hope Gards gets a good contract somewhere else. But Lily was trained as a D man and he is not scared of taking a big hit. Guys who are scared of taking a big hit will never succeed in the NHL.

So Gardiner is scared of taking a big hit and thus he will never succeed in the NHL. Got it.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

So Gardiner is scared of taking a big hit and thus he will never succeed in the NHL. Got it.

Yep it is the old saying Losers keep on losing. But he has a ton of skills so somebody will always believe they can make him a real player. Hockey has made those mistakes forever and it will continue on.

 

[Papi 4 Hart]

He is scared. Anyone who has played defense knows. Lots of pressure on Gards and he is a give away machine. NHL regular season his offense overshadows his defense. NHL playoffs when guys are trying to hurt you he can't handle it. Best we move on from him. and now that he has back problems he will be a problem for whoever signs him.

Lily does not play this way. He will take the hit. He goes down a lot but he will take the hit. From what I can see and I have seen almost all Marlie and Leaf home games I would take Lily on my defense before Gards. He does not always get the boards right yet and I think it is adjustments from larger ice game to smaller ice game.

Lily has more courage and grit. Any "eye test" would confirm this imo.

 

[unitedstars87]

To much Gards talk and comparisons in this thread. Lilly talk for me should be based strictly on Keefe's analysis.

Keefe articulated well on his development over a full season. He touched on injuries, he touched on Lilly's training, he touched on lilly hurting the team in big minutes situations earlier in the season, he touched on not knowing why the light went on but assumed the training and time to reflect during injury and strengthening up all had something tp do with it.

Then he touched of how much he depends on him now and that he is better right now. He trusts him filly right now. So as long as Lilly is retaining and processing why he is being successful now is the biggest thing.

They will absolutely be looking for that retention in his game come yraining camp. Its impressive improvement and development that will and should be tracked and reinforced further as he continues development.

He has made a breakthrough and thats part of the process in development.

There is very very solid development to reinforce the player. The coaches and development staff use that good play as a tool now. Before they didn't have a good sample size of tape where he is playing successfully. Now they do. Thats great.

That matters, Gardiner comparisons don't matter. Continuity and good development habits matter. Making the team out of camp doesn't matter because we know they will only play him when he is ready.

He's a smart player in terms of setting development goals to go along with his coaches wishes apparently.

What a positive leap he had made. There are many Marlies developing really well. The coaches and development staff there are doing a nice job.

Brooksie and Timo are two players really flyong under the radar that the Marlies are working wonders with.Just wanted to put those two prospects out there. They will be part of managements longevity plan.

Ahhh yeah, this got long )

Another reason why I like keefe over Babcock. Keefe is like Bruce Cassidy. Very insightful and honest. Not a snarky entitled gimmick coach like Babcock.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yep it is the old saying Losers keep on losing. But he has a ton of skills so somebody will always believe they can make him a real player. Hockey has made those mistakes forever and it will continue on.

Gardiner isn't perfect but he is one of the best in the world in his chosen field, he probably rates around a solid #3D, he has been playing in the NHL for many years and he will be paid tens of millions of dollars to play for many years to come. We should all do as well as he's done, sorry but the idea that Gardiner will never "succeed in the NHL" is one of the biggest jokes I've ever read here.

Another reason why I like keefe over Babcock. Keefe is like Bruce Cassidy. Very insightful and honest. Not a snarky entitled gimmick coach like Babcock.

Agree 100%. I remember when Babcock first arrived, every time he opened his mouth he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. I used to just nod my head and say yup, that's exactly right whereas now I'm quite often thinking man, this guy is well past his best before date, we better get rid of him quick before the mold spreads.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

You misinterpreted me. He has load of skills. But he is not a defender and never will be a defender. He is a very good offensive player who will always look best with lots of time and space at beginning of season. As season progresses and into playoffs his weaknesses get exposed and he becomes a major liability. No one can cover them up even a true #1 defender.