Tribute Timothy Liljegren Discussion Thread

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

lol...Do people actually think Lilly is better than Holl right now? Thats absurd.

I like lilly, his skating is great and I like his stretch pass ability, his defending is pretty solid too. That being said im a little worried that he wont put it all together....He is very prone to turnovers and is not consistent at all with his puck handling. If he can be consistent and cut out those mistakes and be a Dermott type player he can be top 4.

I don't think amybody thinks he's better than Holl right now. But his play would suggest that he should definitely be on the bottom pair, or at least get an extended look there.

 

[Ashdown2]

Not sure what games you were watching, but Liljegren has done well through two games so far. He is clearly NHL ready and already a better player than Holl, if not a ‘safer’ one.

hes been "fine" nothing earthshattering. Hes had alot of trouble in his own end.
he is not better than HOLL right now, that's an insane statement to make.

 

[mydnyte]

Fair enough. But even if Leafs finish 2nd that is not the end of the world. Trying to go for that 1st place Keefe is overplaying his vets. He played Rielly and Brodie 25 mins; why not use this as an opportunity to let younger players like Lily and Sandin learn. If we lose the game then thats fine... it is not going to put a dent in our playoff hope.

Last couple games of the season Keefe can run his playoff roster to get the team ready. If it looks like we will be playing the habs in the playoffs then probably be tactful on how to play these last remaining games with the habs. In case they try to play "heavy" to wear down our players even before the playoffs begin

not having the extra last change can be the end of the world. ...you lose one critical faceoff, and the playoffs are over. this is why teams try to finish first, its not a glory thing

 

[TheGoldenJet]

That's fine if he looked poor to you, but our 5 on 5 play with him on the ice has been outstanding.

Not to mention the fact that he's had 0 turnovers 5 on 5, as well as 0 goals against in those 25 minutes. Hardly much to point to to say he's been poor outside of the PK.

Every defensemen will make the odd gaff even if it doesn't result in a goal but we've dominated the play when he's been on the ice 5 on 5.

Liljegren’s underlying numbers look great so far, despite the small sample size (which didn’t stop a lot of doubters from using them last year).

And to add to your thought, many young D, like for instance Romanov who made plenty of mistakes in Montreal, are gifted lots of icetime and dont get benched for their errors. Romanov made fantastic progress in his first NHL season for this very reason. That’s how you bring up a young defender.

 

[Maplebeasts]

hes been "fine" nothing earthshattering. Hes had alot of trouble in his own end.
he is not better than HOLL right now, that's an insane statement to make.

So much trouble in his own end that he has one giveaway 5 on 5, an expected goals percentage and corsi in the high 60's, and zero goals against 5 on 5.

 

[Bluelines]

lol...Do people actually think Lilly is better than Holl right now? Thats absurd.

I likeLlilly, his skating is great and I like his stretch pass ability, his defending is pretty solid too. That being said im a little worried that he wont put it all together....He is very prone to turnovers and is not consistent at all with his puck handling. If he can be consistent and cut out those mistakes and be a Dermott type player he can be top 4.

Yep, that is the belief of some "fans", Holl sucks, Lilly is the next coming of Paul Coffee... I truly wonder why some "fans" watch hockey, if you don't understand the game , why watch it...? I don't understand those fighting robots shows, so I don't watch those shows.

You're right Lilly is an interesting prospect but he is not one that makes you say say, wow this guy deserves to be here, I can remember Dermott, Holl and Sandin first stretch of games in the NHL, for all those players I was thinking wow we got some NHL defenders here. they may not be All Stars but they deserve to be on a NHL team. Sandin, Holl and Dermotts first few games are far and away what we witness from Lilly in Montreal. I truly hope Lilly refines his game over the next year and dominates in training camp.

 

[Bluelines]

So much trouble in his own end that he has one giveaway 5 on 5, an expected goals percentage and corsi in the high 60's, and zero goals against 5 on 5.

Give always are a subjective stat, we rely on a human to tell us it was a give away, the criteria is not consistent rink to rink... the Habs didn't score because they are the Habs... context of your stats matter.

Until they remove the human element from NHL stats, most of these regular stats /advance stats will have some sort of home rink bias/ scorer bias.

 

[Bluelines]

That's fine if he looked poor to you, but our 5 on 5 play with him on the ice has been outstanding.

Not to mention the fact that he's had 0 turnovers 5 on 5, as well as 0 goals against in those 25 minutes. Hardly much to point to to say he's been poor outside of the PK.

Every defensemen will make the odd gaff even if it doesn't result in a goal but we've dominated the play when he's been on the ice 5 on 5.

Respectfully the stats don't tell the whole story, he creates 50/50 plays when quicker judgment would eliminate those 50/50 plays entirely. Turnover stat may say zero but he put himself into situations in Montreal that were needless battles for the puck. If he is ready to be a NHLer, you will see him adjusting tonight, moving the puck quicker, not allowing the forechecker to get on top of him. If he is not ready, you will see teams emulating Montreal's game plan, and pressure pressure, pressure on Lilly. I hope he is ready next year, we will need him over the next 5 years.

 

[mydnyte]

Lil needs to 'learn' how to play under a heavy and relentless forecheck, that is not something new to any defenseman, and is a learned skill at the NHL level.
Lil looked and performed better vs Montreal's forecheck than Barrie did in the elimination series vs Columbus as an example.
Barrie's weak play in that regard cost us games and the series, and he was one of our key defenders, and will likely be exposed once EDM hits the playoffs.
Lil on the other hand was playing in his 2nd NHL game of the season, so, he deserves some slack.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

So much trouble in his own end that he has one giveaway 5 on 5, an expected goals percentage and corsi in the high 60's, and zero goals against 5 on 5.

I agree that Lily has looked pretty good for a rookie in the defensive zone but expected goals percentage for a sample of 2 games is essentially meaningless.

 

[Bluelines]

Liljegren’s underlying numbers look great so far, despite the small sample size (which didn’t stop a lot of doubters from using them last year).

And to add to your thought, many young D, like for instance Romanov who made plenty of mistakes in Montreal, are gifted lots of icetime and dont get benched for their errors. Romanov made fantastic progress in his first NHL season for this very reason. That’s how you bring up a young defender.

1) What are Montreal's other options besides rushing a young defender to the NHL?
2) Montreal is barely squeaking into the playoffs. There are different expectations in Toronto vs Montreal, not remotely a reasonable comparison. In Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver, you play rookies to get experience, on the good teams you don't because rookies make mistakes and mistakes get you booted out of the playoffs early. Good teams don't typically use the NHL to develop their players as a rule, bad teams do.

 

[meefer]

Respectfully the stats don't tell the whole story, he creates 50/50 plays when quicker judgment would eliminate those 50/50 plays entirely. Turnover stat may say zero but he put himself into situations in Montreal that were needless battles for the puck. If he is ready to be a NHLer, you will see him adjusting tonight, moving the puck quicker, not allowing the forechecker to get on top of him. If he is not ready, you will see teams emulating Montreal's game plan, and pressure pressure, pressure on Lilly. I hope he is ready next year, we will need him over the next 5 years.

Respectfully, those 50/50 plays were created by Liljegren trying things that suggest he's feeling more confident and capable. Yes, failures should be eliminated, they won't be but can we agree on reduced? I'd rather see him try these plays, learn from them and hopefully adapt, than see him playing an ultraconservative brand of hockey that defeats the talent that by his draft position (at least) is something we should be encouraging.

Agreed, but apparently he's not in the practice line-up position to suggest he's playing. A pity.

I think he's ready now, but his lack of experience is showing. FWIW, I can see TM becoming a right side version of Muzzin, with dare I say, a bit more O upside.

 

[PromisedLand]

not having the extra last change can be the end of the world. ...you lose one critical faceoff, and the playoffs are over. this is why teams try to finish first, its not a glory thing

That may have some credence but the evidence from recent past doesn't support that substantially. Most of the cup finalists are not necessarily 1st in the division (2017/2018) only season when this happened in the recent memory

Season, Cup finalists (winner bolded) and standing in the division

• 2019/2020: Cup finalists Tampa 2nd in the division, Dallas 3rd in the division
• 2018/2019: Cup finalists Blues 3rd in the division, Boston 2nd in the division
• 2017/2018: Cup finalists Caps 1st in the division, VGK 1st in the division
• 2016/2017: Cup finalists Pens 2nd in the division, Preds 2nd Wildcard
• 2015/2016: Cup finalists Pens 2nd in the division, Sharks 3rd in the division
• 2014/2015: Cup finalists Hawks 3rd in the division, Tampa 2nd in the division

I would argue having well rested and healthy line up is more important than finishing 1st in the division while overplaying your players before the playoffs (ex: Rielly and Brodie clocking 25 mins last game)

 

[Bluelines]

Respectfully, those 50/50 plays were created by Liljegren trying things that suggest he's feeling more confident and capable. Yes, failures should be eliminated, they won't be but can we agree on reduced? I'd rather see him try these plays, learn from them and hopefully adapt, than see him playing an ultraconservative brand of hockey that defeats the talent that by his draft position (at least) is something we should be encouraging.

Agreed, but apparently he's not in the practice line-up position to suggest he's playing. A pity.

I think he's ready now, but his lack of experience is showing. FWIW, I can see TM becoming a right side version of Muzzin, with dare I say, a bit more O upside.

Yeah no player is perfect, I wouldn't expect perfection out of McDavid, players will make mistakes from time to time, sometimes players will just be out skilled by their opponents from time to time. What bothered me about TL's game on Monday was he was needlessly making simple "easy out" plays into fight for your life plays. It's fine to be creative, if it works. Coaches in every sport like predictability, they don't want their #8 d-man trying to bounce pucks off the back of the net then almost lose it to a younger, smaller player. that will give coaches fits, everyday all day. They want predictability, execution and for guys lower in the line up, they want them invisible. Dont be the reason why we lose, eat some minutes and call it a night.

TL needs to come up and show he can make the easy plays easy, then he can get more responsibility, more leash and more latitude to try more challenging situations. if he does become a Muzzin with more O, that would be phenomenal.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

That may have some credence but the evidence from recent past doesn't support that substantially. Most of the cup finalists are not necessarily 1st in the division (2017/2018) only season when this happened in the recent memory

Season, Cup finalists (winner bolded) and standing in the division

• 2019/2020: Cup finalists Tampa 2nd in the division, Dallas 3rd in the division
• 2018/2019: Cup finalists Blues 3rd in the division, Boston 2nd in the division
• 2017/2018: Cup finalists Caps 1st in the division, VGK 1st in the division
• 2016/2017: Cup finalists Pens 2nd in the division, Preds 2nd Wildcard
• 2015/2016: Cup finalists Pens 2nd in the division, Sharks 3rd in the division
• 2014/2015: Cup finalists Hawks 3rd in the division, Tampa 2nd in the division

I would argue having well rested and healthy line up is more important than finishing 1st in the division while overplaying your players before the playoffs (ex: Rielly and Brodie clocking 25 mins last game)

One thing to note is that we have a fairly light schedule right now, so he is probably fine with playing those guys a bit more so they don't get rusty. Obviously 25 minutes is a little bit much, but remember that almost a full OT was included in there as well so it was probably more than he originally intended on playing them.

 

[Rielly4]

So much trouble in his own end that he has one giveaway 5 on 5, an expected goals percentage and corsi in the high 60's, and zero goals against 5 on 5.

i can remember multiple giveaways last game that stat is wrong.

 

[Rielly4]

6:51 of the 1st he tries to make a move behind the net around caufield and gets stripped gives up a grade A.

10:00 of the 2nd period he tries to pass behidn the net to muzzin and fans and gives it away.

So only 2 giveaways I could count. He really didnt get a ton of touches though. I think all around it was a solid game for someone whos just getting into the league but hes definitely not showing as well as Sandin.

I just think for a guy whos role is suppose to be consistent steady two way puck mover he needs to be a little more consistent in his puck handling and not make Gardiner type mistakes. He can get there but needs to keep working at it. Sandin makes those mistakes too but he generates a lot more offense and makes a ton of plays on breakouts so we can live with it. Liljegren needs to become similar to Dermott in a steady consistent puck mover who defends well.

 

[moon111]

Liljegren last night, in the first period was pretty impressive until his last 2 shifts of the first, he turned the puck over behind his own net trying a very risky bank pass off the back off his own net to evade Caufield. Until that point, I thought I was watching a new improved Liljegren and was impressed with his simple decisions, moving the puck quickly and supporting his D partner at all times, giving him a lane to pass too. Liljegren turned the puck over 2 more times behind his own net. I would show him the first 4 or 5 shifts of last nights game as a great template for him, keep it simple. Liljegren grew up being an offensive stud on every team he was on from age 5 until 18, it doesnt look like thats his game at this level and so he must stick to a simple game right now and master that part of it. When Liljegren starts to do fancy things or push for offense, mistakes happen. He has to eliminate that.

Why does he have to eliminate that? It's worked for Morgan Rielly so far.

 

[Knies iT]

6:51 of the 1st he tries to make a move behind the net around caufield and gets stripped gives up a grade A.

10:00 of the 2nd period he tries to pass behidn the net to muzzin and fans and gives it away.

So only 2 giveaways I could count. He really didnt get a ton of touches though. I think all around it was a solid game for someone whos just getting into the league but hes definitely not showing as well as Sandin.

I just think for a guy whos role is suppose to be consistent steady two way puck mover he needs to be a little more consistent in his puck handling and not make Gardiner type mistakes. He can get there but needs to keep working at it. Sandin makes those mistakes too but he generates a lot more offense and makes a ton of plays on breakouts so we can live with it. Liljegren needs to become similar to Dermott in a steady consistent puck mover who defends well.

People just need to watch more hockey outside of Leaf games. Go watch Valimaki, Brannstrom, Foote, Peeke, etc. (most of which were drafted higher) and you'll see how difficult it is to break into this league. All are struggling with inconsistency and adjusting to the faster pace of the league. Nurse came out after his third season in the NHL and said the game finally slowed down for him. Guys like Fox, Hughes, etc. are not the norm.

Liljegren is not Sandin. Very different players. Sandin is a faster learner but at their peaks, they have similar impacts, and Liljegren has shown to be better at the AHL level. If fans can be patient and give Liljegren the same amount of time that has been afforded to Dermott on the bottom pair (2-3 years sheltered bottom pair), he'll grow into a Stralman esque 2nd pair D. He progresses slower and is more of a project.

 

[justloveleafs]

Good friend of mine, got traded along with Ken Yaremchuk for Olcyk.

Jerome Dupont. Neither he, nor Yaremchuk got a chance, at all. In Toronto. Heck, Yaremchuk would be Dubas's favourite player. Ridiculous how he was treated here.

Jerome would kill you in front of the net. But he was abused as well. Yaremchuk and Dupont were steals, and we killed them both.

Course Lilly looks a bit rushed on an NHL forecheck. Apart from Brodie, everyone on our defence, is dealing with that stress, and its taken quite a bit of time for them to adjust.

Holl when he is off, or tired, looks like a BEER LEAGUER under pressure.

Sure, Jerome got dazzled by intense forechecking.

Show me one, dman in TORONTO, dman history besides peak Kaberle, or TJ. Brodie, that doesn't panic a bit.

Heck that is why they call it forechecking.

This story about him not processing in front of a guy who watches Marlie games. Come on, if you forecheck a dman at any level, he is going to raise his heart rate. Takes years to deal with that pressure. IT is, really what being a great dman is all about.

With regards to this, how is t. j. brodei, not acknowledged as the free agent steal of the last five years.

A drill that guys like Malkin and Tavares practise in the off season to great expense to them.

Hire, willing guys to just swarm them, while they try to perform, their every day offensive moves. And I mean swarm them.

Same for dmen, some NHL dmen have admitted to me, that being under a forecheck, is the most intense and stressful thing for a defenceman. Nothing, nothing, even remotely close to it.

A wealthy guy, dman, not going to mention names, loved to have some puck hounds swarm him in the summer, he didn't even have to pay them that much.

Three sets of sticks chopping at you, body brushing or worse.

Over time, you MIGHT, might, get used to it.

Yes, despite being a huge liljegren supporter, I did, in fact see him getting partially eaten up along our boards.

Huge Leaf fan, but yeah, I saw it, and if I saw it, so did every team in the NHL.

What do you do about it..... Swarm him every day for 30 minutes.

Yeah its 10 years ahead of its time. But that is what you do for a dman. See if he can figure it out.

Kaberle's father did that to both his sons, thomas got it better than his brother, but do people think Thomas just got this bizarre ability to slip every forecheck till the dirtiest player in the NHL caught u to him. With no specific drills and or training. Kaberle was slippier than an eel, but his dad crafted that for ten years. Poor Thomas still recieved little junior draft cred.

No, if you have a backyard rink and your child is leaning towards being a dman, swarm him. Constantly.

Best drill to develop a dman, ohl and nhl still don't do it. Well there is always, 2031.

 

[justloveleafs]

Set up a time. On the main pad, or one close by, and get Muzzin, Holl, Dermott, and Lilly going through this drill.

Sandin might not need it nearly as much as they do, but have him do it as well.

Being a dman in the NHL Having to secure the puck and having swarms of Hyman lites coming onto you.

Well, it, is not fun.

So get them used to it, all the time. Till its not all that bad. Always going to be bad though lol

I hung with Kaberle, we had some fun. I said to him, how the heck do you do it.... You are a very tall man.

Not Bobby Orr, Housley, Leetch, with the edges.

How the heck do you do it and did you do it.

Read above, specific drills.

 

[zeke]

6:51 of the 1st he tries to make a move behind the net around caufield and gets stripped gives up a grade A.

10:00 of the 2nd period he tries to pass behidn the net to muzzin and fans and gives it away.

So only 2 giveaways I could count.

Correct.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Would like to see him in next game, since they have all but clinched the division.

He has played so few games this year, which is not good for a developing prospect.

Would therefore also like to see Liljegren get in those last few games with the Marlies, since they do play until May 20th, when the Leafs will be in the playoffs already and Liljegren will otherwise just be accumulating rust in the pressbox.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Why does he have to eliminate that? It's worked for Morgan Rielly so far.

1. He cant skate on Reilly's level or even close to it
2. He cant stick handle like Reilly
3. Reilly has better hockey sense

 

[TheGoldenJet]

16 GP on the year, despite perfect health.

Could really use some games with the Marlies over their final 2 weeks.