Thoughts - Gr8 to beat #99 in goals scored?

[MessierThanThou]

Bossy didn’t stick around long enough to be in the convo

That's cute.

Three consecutive 17-goal postseasons (the Isle won the Cup each of those years), two of which were achieved in 18 games, one of which was achieved in 19 games. That's almost a goal per game in the playoffs for three out of the four Islanders dynasty years.

 

[Hockeylife2018]

He'd probably be good, but probably would not be scoring 40 goals a season at 39. it's just a fact.

Alright we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this...I also think without any proof or reason that Wayne would have been addicted to sports betting with all the ads the NHL has going...he would have been good but not great

 

[McJadeddog]

Yeah he did. His career was long enough to establish a claim to that title. Wouid he have had Ovechkin’s ability to keep putting pucks in nets? Who knows. But if my life is on the line and o had to have the puck on the stick of any goal scorer in history it would be Mike Bossy.

Yeah, I also agree with this. One shot on goal from the slot, and a gun to my head that goes boom if he doesn't score, I pick Bossy as my champion.

 

[McShogun99]

I mean the sports culture back in the day was less professional. It's a known fact.

Didn’t Gretzky eat hot dogs and drink Diet Cokes before games and during the intermission?

 

[tiger_80]

Alright we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this...I also think without any proof or reason that Wayne would have been addicted to sports betting with all the ads the NHL has going...he would have been good but not great

I am not going to die on this hill either. But I am sceptical that even if he were 100% professional in the 1980s-1990s Ovechkin would be able to remain so effective in his late 30s then. Training, nutriotioun, medical care--all improved immensely. That does not have as much impact on evaluating players' respective legacies, but when comparing statistical totals across different eras, it is relevant.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Ovie had some weird down seasons during his peak that messes a bit with his legacy, but even look at his adjusted goals and it's insane how long ago he passed Gretzky based on that criteria. He's easily the greatest goal-scorer in history and had a three-season run as arguably the best player in the league. He won a Cup (and Smythe) without a player of similar stature to help him get there, like Crosby had with Malkin. I still think Sid has the better overall legacy and I'd rather have him on my team, but Ovie makes my Top 10 all-time for sure.

He'd probably be good, but probably would not be scoring 40 goals a season at 39. it's just a fact.

Not sure it's a fact. Gordie Howe had his first 100-point season at 40 in 1968-69. Ovie is clearly a genetic anomaly, even with modern medicine.

 

[tiger_80]

Didn’t Gretzky eat hot dogs and drink Diet Cokes before games and during the intermission?

How does that invalidate what I said?

 

[MessierThanThou]

Ovechkin is the greatest scorer of this generation. But I feel both he and Crosby are one tier below Gretzky. The latter also played part of his career in the dead puck era.

For me (in no particular order):

Tier 1: Gretzky, Mario, Orr

Tweener Tier: Howe, McDavid

Tier 2: Jagr, Sid, Ovie, Bobby Hull, Beliveau, Esposito, Roy, Hasek, Lidstrom, Bourque, Rocket

 

[bellagiobob]

 

[tiger_80]

For me (in no particular order):

Tier 1: Gretzky, Mario, Orr

Tweener Tier: Howe, McDavid

Tier 2: Jagr, Sid, Ovie, Bobby Hull, Beliveau, Esposito, Roy, Hasek, Lidstrom, Bourque, Rocket

Too early to tell about McDavid. He needs to win at least one cup to be in this conversation. Otherwise, he may be there with Joe Thornton.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Too early to tell about McDavid. He needs to win at least one cup to be in this conversation. Otherwise, he may be there with Joe Thornton.

I'm sorry, and I mean no disrespect, but that's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read in my life. And that's not hyperbole. He's way above Thornton, Cup or not.

He did Gretzky shit in today's era last postseason and has led the playoffs twice in scoring (even after getting swept in the WCF in 2022). He's third all-time in playoff points-per-game behind only Wayne and Mario. He's one of the greatest playoff performers in history. Thornton was...not. To say the least.

It's not his fault the supporting cast around him and Drai have been inadequate. Do you think Ovie and Malkin could win a Cup if they had the misfortune of having the same comedians picking their supporting cast that McDrai has had?

Chiairelli is widely considered to be one of the worst GMs in league history, and Ken Holland was primed for retirement before we tossed away Bill Zito's application to bring in Kenny...

 

[McShogun99]

How does that invalidate what I said?

If he ate, trained and recovered like today’s athletes his peek would have lasted longer and his decline would have happened later. We could be talking about 1000+ goals and 3000+ points but athletes in that era fell hard after 30. Now you’re seeing elite players at the top of the league in their mid to late 30’s.

 

[McShogun99]

For me (in no particular order):

Tier 1: Gretzky, Mario, Orr

Tweener Tier: Howe, McDavid

Tier 2: Jagr, Sid, Ovie, Bobby Hull, Beliveau, Esposito, Roy, Hasek, Lidstrom, Bourque, Rocket

I feel like Howe gets disrespected on modern rankings because not many people alive right now watched him play but whenever there’s era adjusted stats he’s always at the top.

 

[tiger_80]

If he ate, trained and recovered like today’s athletes his peek would have lasted longer and his decline would have happened later. We could be talking about 1000+ goals and 3000+ points but athletes in that era fell hard after 30. Now you’re seeing elite players at the top of the league in their mid to late 30’s.

That's basically what I said.

 

[tiger_80]

I'm sorry, and I mean no disrespect, but that's one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read in my life. And that's not hyperbole. He's way above Thornton, Cup or not.

He did Gretzky shit in today's era last postseason and has led the playoffs twice in scoring (even after getting swept in the WCF in 2022). He's third all-time in playoff points-per-game behind only Wayne and Mario. He's one of the greatest playoff performers in history. Thornton was...not. To say the least.

It's not his fault the supporting cast around him and Drai have been inadequate. Do you think Ovie and Malkin could win a Cup if they had the misfortune of having the same comedians picking their supporting cast that McDrai has had?

Chiairelli is widely considered to be one of the worst GMs in league history, and Ken Holland was primed for retirement before we tossed away Bill Zito's application to bring in Kenny...

He is individually, but his legacy will be affected. Also people forget how good Thornton was in his prime. Before the arrival of Ovechkin and Crosby he was arguably the best player in the league.

 

[MessierThanThou]

I feel like Howe gets disrespected on modern rankings because not many people alive right now watched him play but whenever there’s era adjusted stats he’s always at the top.

His adjusted stats are actually not as impressive as I thought they would be, or at least not as impressive as the three in God-tier, hence why I put him in the Tweener-God tier. His peak and longevity cannot be ignored though. Also, I feel like dominating in a post-Iron Curtain NHL is more impressive because it's legitimately best on best in the world, so for Mario, Connor, and Wayne (at times) to accomplish that feat means a bit more IMO. And I also consider post-expansion (aside from the WHA years) to be at a higher level of competition than the O6.

 

[MessierThanThou]

He is individually, but his legacy will be affected. Also people forget how good Thornton was in his prime. Before the arrival of Ovechkin and Crosby he was arguably the best player in the league.

Big Joe was arguably, very arguably because I would say Jagr deserved the 2006 Hart, the best player in the league for one season: 2005-06. Connor has five Art Rosses, four Lindsays (deserved another in 2022), and I'd say he was the best player in the league in 2017, 2018, 2021, 2022, 2023...and being the first player to win the Smythe on a losing team in almost 50 years tells me he was probably the best player in 2024 as well. He also finished with a higher points-per-game than Hart winner MacKinnon.

Even Sid and Ovie have never had as many "best player in the league" seasons. You're pretty much only looking up at the big four of Gretz, Mario, Orr, and Gordie at that point. Jagr gets bumped out of that category because during his Cup runs he was basically Mario's RNH and never had the insane postseasons Connor had in 2022 and 2024.

 

[Fourier]

Yeah he did. His career was long enough to establish a claim to that title. Wouid he have had Ovechkin’s ability to keep putting pucks in nets? Who knows. But if my life is on the line and o had to have the puck on the stick of any goal scorer in history it would be Mike Bossy.

Hard to argue with this. Bossy had the most deadly shot of my lifetime. He only dropped below 20% sh% in his last year of his career. That is an insane stat.

 

[Cloned]

To me Gretzky is still the greatest goalscorer of all time simply because he literally forced a goaltending revolution in terms of technique. His ability to pick corners along the ice forced goalies to adopt the butterfly. He’s still the best I’ve ever seen at that, and it’s become somewhat of a lost skill as butterfly discourages trying shots like that.

 

[Messrules11]

For me (in no particular order):

Tier 1: Gretzky, Mario, Orr

Tweener Tier: Howe, McDavid

Tier 2: Jagr, Sid, Ovie, Bobby Hull, Beliveau, Esposito, Roy, Hasek, Lidstrom, Bourque, Rocket

I agree with a lot of this, where do you put Mess?

 

[tiger_80]

Big Joe was arguably, very arguably because I would say Jagr deserved the 2006 Hart, the best player in the league for one season: 2005-06. Connor has five Art Rosses, four Lindsays (deserved another in 2022), and I'd say he was the best player in the league in 2017, 2018, 2021, 2022, 2023...and being the first player to win the Smythe on a losing team in almost 50 years tells me he was probably the best player in 2024 as well. He also finished with a higher points-per-game than Hart winner MacKinnon.

Even Sid and Ovie have never had as many "best player in the league" seasons. You're pretty much only looking up at the big four of Gretz, Mario, Orr, and Gordie at that point. Jagr gets bumped out of that category because during his Cup runs he was basically Mario's RNH and never had the insane postseasons Connor had in 2022 and 2024.

I think if he wins one cup, he will no doubt be there with Gretz and Co. In terms of individual contributions, I'd rank even higher than Ovechkin and Crosby up until this point of his career. Of course, there are many factors that go into legacy: cups, longevity, individual records, international tournments, like Olympics. Even individual performances at least in the context of own teams. We still talk about Gagner's 8 point game or about Smyth's teeth. But who will remember Patrick Marleau or Jason Spezza in 20 years, even though both had better careers overall?

 

[MessierThanThou]

I agree with a lot of this, where do you put Mess?

First off: great username.

Second: Tier 3. It's tough because he's probably tied as my favorite player ever with Mario, Connor, and Leon, and he was an absolute monster in the playoffs, but his adjusted stats hurt his case a bit. Still, the man helped will two teams to Cup wins minus-99 and seemed to perform even better without Wayne. The fact that he won two Harts during Gretzky and Lemieux's peaks, despite his offense not close to their level, suggests that his ability to break a game was evident to many at the time.

I don't want to give too much away about myself, but I once had a gig where I seemingly had carte blanche to watch as many old Oiler games as I wanted, and pick the best moments for a special on the glory days. I saw sooo many hours of Gretzky and Messier in oil and blue. Gretz was like a ninja who would only show up to score or make plays, which was great and what we needed, while Messier was doing all the little things to shift the momentum of a game. And bending the rules when it best suited us. We don't win all of those Cups without him, as I think that first Smythe win would suggest. And we definitely don't win any post-Wayne.

 

[MessierThanThou]

I think if he wins one cup, he will no doubt be there with Gretz and Co. In terms of individual contributions, I'd rank even higher than Ovechkin and Crosby up until this point of his career. Of course, there are many factors that go into legacy: cups, longevity, individual records, international tournments, like Olympics. Even individual performances at least in the context of own teams. We still talk about Gagner's 8 point game or about Smyth's teeth. But who will remember Patrick Marleau or Jason Spezza in 20 years, even though both had better careers overall?

I think I know what you mean, in that his perception and all-time standing among the media and hockey journalists necessitates a Cup, and I desperately hope that he gets one with us (as a player).

 

[bellagiobob]

 

[doublechili]

Hey all, Isles fan snooping and coming in peace. All credit to Ovi for the great accomplishment, but Gretzky's overall offensive production is still the most insane in NHL history and it's not close. I mean, here we are and everyone is celebrating someone coming along a few decades later and breaking his goal scoring record, and goal scoring wasn't even the best part of his game - it was like his side gig.

[BTW, appreciate the nice Bossy posts - I agree with them, but I'm biased!]