This Pittsburgh Penguins Act is Getting Old

[Empoleon8771]

You’re either trolling, drunk, or both. Give it a rest, it should not be difficult to track what’s being said to you in good faith.

That's the whole part of this that's bizarre to me, I don't even see how this is a controversial statement to make. I think most fans would expect the Penguins to be a mediocre fringe playoff team, similar to what they've been in each of the last 2 years. The fact that they're in contention for a top-5 pick right now is because of Sullivan.

Dubas has done a bad as the Penguins GM, but the moves he has made have mostly been neutral from a roster talent level point of view outside of the Guentzel trade (which was the correct decision to make). The issue is that the deals he made for them were all terrible, between paying a 1st to get Karlsson at $10 million (when he's like a $6-$7 million player you need to give specific usage to) and handed out a huge deals to Graves (who's basically a 6'5" Chad Ruhwedel) and Jarry (who had been declining for years and really hit rock bottom this year).

The Penguins issues today go far beyond the moves Dubas has made, and all 3 of their last 3 GMs have some responsibility for the flaws they have today. That being said, the roster on paper is mediocre and Sullivan is driving it off a cliff into a top-5 pick team.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Wouldn't sullivan be hurting the floor of the Pens current roster?

The pens team as you and others mentioned is not very good. They are a medicore team which should/could be a WC1 or Metro #3 spot and likely lose R1 to better & younger rosters in NYR, NJD, and CAR

That they are now 2nd worst in the league is attributable to Sullivan and his shotty coaching

For the teams ceiling, its limited/hurt by Hextall's idiotic koves + Dubas idiotic moves.

The pens if retooled around by a good GM should be a better version of the CAPs (Crosby has been better then OV in 2023, 2024 and is likely still the better player this year despite a slow start).

The Caps retooled and got younger, faster and more deep (PLD in a lower insuitated role, Strome a few years back looks amazing now, Chychuran looks very good for very cheap cost, Logan Thompson for a 3rd).

If the Pens had that level of management they would be a legit playoff contender who despite their aging/elderly core could be contending for a deep run/cup if they had a stronger coach (ceiling raiser) then MS.

Management has f***ed the quality of team and support and Sullivan is a caveman who is fixated on his style of roster/tactics/strategies even if they fail to work/compliment the Pens players

The Caps retooled and got younger because they were able to dump Backstroms horrific deal and ultimately Oshie’s.

Imagine how much younger the Penguins would become if Karlsson got a boo boo and the Penguins kindly asked him to ride off into the sunset? And then Letang on top of him?

Their FO f***ed up giving out both of those contracts and got extremely lucky to have those guys get injuries.

Penguins should realistically let Crosby go to a team to win another cup. Will it actually happen? Probably not. But that's the best case outcome for long term.

Trade Pettersson and Eller. Try and trade Rust and Karlsson in the offseason. And assess what Malkin/Letang want to do.

Team needs a complete tear down. But a top 5 pick will do wonders this year and hopefully they can gain a bunch more ammo by the trade deadline.

 

[SomeDude]

Imagine how much younger the Penguins would become if Karlsson got a boo boo and the Penguins kindly asked him to ride off into the sunset? And then Letang on top of him?

Their FO f***ed up giving out both of those contracts and got extremely lucky to have those guys get injuries.

Dubas/Sully would just replace said overpaid and mediocre players with different overpaid and mediocre players.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Dubas/Sully would just replace said overpaid and mediocre players with different overpaid and mediocre players.

Oh I have no doubt they would f*** it up. But people keep bringing the Caps getting younger like they performed some miracle. Yeah they made some decent trades while also getting extremely lucky with some aging players, who had downright bad contracts.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Wouldn't sullivan be hurting the floor of the Pens current roster?

The pens team as you and others mentioned is not very good. They are a medicore team which should/could be a WC1 or Metro #3 spot and likely lose R1 to better & younger rosters in NYR, NJD, and CAR

That they are now 2nd worst in the league is attributable to Sullivan and his shotty coaching

For the teams ceiling, its limited/hurt by Hextall's idiotic koves + Dubas idiotic moves.

I don't disagree with any of this, that was the point of what I was saying. They have had 3 GMs in a row that have mostly hurt the team, but it's a mediocre roster being driven off a cliff by Sullivan. A competent coach that designs a system based on the players has this team in probably a wildcard spot. Is that anything special? No, but it's a hell of a lot better than contending for a top-5 pick.

The pens if retooled around by a good GM should be a better version of the CAPs (Crosby has been better then OV in 2023, 2024 and is likely still the better player this year despite a slow start).

The Caps retooled and got younger, faster and more deep (PLD in a lower insuitated role, Strome a few years back looks amazing now, Chychuran looks very good for very cheap cost, Logan Thompson for a 3rd).

If the Pens had that level of management they would be a legit playoff contender who despite their aging/elderly core could be contending for a deep run/cup if they had a stronger coach (ceiling raiser) then MS.

Management has f***ed the quality of team and support and Sullivan is a caveman who is fixated on his style of roster/tactics/strategies even if they fail to work/compliment the Pens players

This is what I don't agree on. The Penguins future fate was set in stone with the trade decisions JR made in his last few years with the Penguins. He left far too picks and prospects on the team for them to have any amount of young players today. The Penguins today don't have anyone on their roster under 25, and their best young players are guys like St. Ivany and Puustinen. You're simply never going to be competitive as such an old team.

The Capitals did make smart moves, but they also kept their draft picks and now have guys like McMichael, Protas, Lapierre and Fehervary, along with trading a 1st for a young Sandin who will be around for a while. McMichael alone is better than anyone on the Penguins not named Crosby or Malkin at this point. The Penguins don't have anyone like that because JR traded 7 of their 8 1sts from 2014-2022 (including Kapanen being traded in the Kessel trade). Which was definitely worth it at the beginning of Rutherford's term, but it quickly became not worth it and it completely mortgaged the future of the team.

 

[hamzarocks]

The Caps retooled and got younger because they were able to dump Backstroms horrific deal and ultimately Oshie’s.

Imagine how much younger the Penguins would become if Karlsson got a boo boo and the Penguins kindly asked him to ride off into the sunset? And then Letang on top of him?

Their FO f***ed up giving out both of those contracts and got extremely lucky to have those guys get injuries.

Penguins should realistically let Crosby go to a team to win another cup. Will it actually happen? Probably not. But that's the best case outcome for long term.

Trade Pettersson and Eller. Try and trade Rust and Karlsson in the offseason. And assess what Malkin/Letang want to do.

Team needs a complete tear down. But a top 5 pick will do wonders this year and hopefully they can gain a bunch more ammo by the trade deadline.

Karlsson was the bad/poor add who hurt the Pens retool

The Caps avoided trading for an aged once superstar who had a fat contract and was mismatch for team needs and style.

The Pens did the opposite and tsrgetted EK65 who was not a need and doesnt help the pens. Graves is also paid too much for too long as is Jarry.

Pens should have looked externally for players with breakout/bounce back potential.

Karlsson at 9.8M giving 55 pts will need assets attach to dump or big retention for the 2 or 3 years he has left.

Rust, Rackell can be dealt for value in the summer.

PEttersson for good value at the TDL

 

[Stickpucker]

Hence the attempt to retool and not rebuild. These are all moves clubs make in hoping to get more out of an aging core. One last kick at the can, so to speak. It isn’t going to make any difference replacing the coach.
They are in need of a rebuild and need to move on from those old core players. But they can’t now because those old guys have term on their contracts. It would take sweetening deals to move them with picks and prospects; two things the Pens lack and need to be adding, not moving out.
The Pens are in for a very long and painful period of losing. Hopefully their fans keep supporting them.

Rutherford would have been much better at retooling than Dubas and has a proven track record of it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Rutherford would have been much better at retooling than Dubas and has a proven track record of it.

Lol no he wouldn't have. Rutherford is the reason that this team has no young players and a shit prospect pool.

 

[SomeDude]

Rutherford would have been much better at retooling than Dubas and has a proven track record of it.

The good thing about Rutherford is that he doesn’t let his ego in the way of admitting when he made a mistake and will quickly get rid of a player that clearly doesn’t fit.

The bad thing about Rutherford is that he hemorrhaged assets in that process to the point the organization was barren of any worthwhile draft picks or prospects. Thats fine when it results in a winning team. It’s not fine when it results in a mid-team because you still can’t identify and acquire a 3rd line center after 3 years of trying.

 

[Stickpucker]

To add onto that, the previous 2 years we missed the playoffs by a single point. Last year we would have easily been in with a mediocre PP instead of a putrid one. He couldn’t or wouldn’t fix it on the fly. It’s not like we’ve been icing league bad rosters. It’s not out of the question with competent coaching we could have snuck into a wild card spot this year. The hole is getting too deep now.

Are you happy with the addition of Karlsson in hopes of fixing the pp to get the team over the hump?

What is wrong with the Pens pp?

 

[Stickpucker]

Lol no he wouldn't have. Rutherford is the reason that this team has no young players and a shit prospect pool.

I quoted someone who said retool and not rebuild. Rutherford retooling and his penchant for dumpster diving helped en route to multiple cups.

A good prospect pool is the definition of a rebuild which the Pens have adamantly said they are not doing.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Is the head coach coordinating with the farm team where they have him killing penalties? I assume so yes.

Sullivan came out to the press and said he would need to learn how to PK before playing in the pros and he’s down on the farm team killing penalties.

Oh no, a mid-1st is killing penalties, how terrible, don't people realize the NHL Draft produces 20 superstars every year that need 1st line/PP1 time so they can focus solely on scoring?

 

[SomeDude]

Are you happy with the addition of Karlsson in hopes of fixing the pp to get the team over the hump?

What is wrong with the Pens pp?

I never wanted Karlsson. I was open to the idea after seeing it didn’t cost much in the way of assets, but he’s 100% what this team did not need. A PP with Malkin, Crosby, and Letang shouldn’t need another guy to make it respectable.

They have taken measures to address the PP this year and it is back to being fine I guess. It’s not great but it’s also not the glaring black hole that it was last year. Although there is still plenty of time for that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I quoted someone who said retool and not rebuild. Rutherford retooling and his penchant for dumpster diving helped en route to multiple cups.

A good prospect pool is the definition of a rebuild which the Pens have adamantly said they are not doing.

What Washington did firmly looks like a retool to me, and a big reason for their improvement is that they kept their picks and prospects and now have guys like McMichael, Fehervary, Protas and Sandin (traded a 1st for him but he's still a young guy that will be around for a while) in notable roles.

McMichael alone is probably better than any forward not named Crosby or Malkin on the Penguins at this point.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Are you happy with the addition of Karlsson in hopes of fixing the pp to get the team over the hump?

What is wrong with the Pens pp?

Karlsson has surprisingly not been a great PP Defenseman for quite some time. Seriously, check his PPP/60 dating back over whatever multi-year time period suits your fancy.

He's a terrific rover/ES scorer but his PP production is not elite.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Karlsson has surprisingly not been a great PP Defenseman for quite some time. Seriously, check his PPP/60 dating back over whatever multi-year time period suits your fancy.

He's a terrific rover/ES scorer but his PP production is not elite.

And I think a huge problem with this is that any good team is not going to want him playing like a rover. Granted he missed all of the pre-season this year, but he has looked awful this year.

That's the biggest concern I have with the Karlsson addition. I am growing very worried that Karlsson can only be a net positive if he's playing like a rover, but no good teams will want him if he has to play like a rover to be a net positive. I don't think a team trying to win a cup and playing a structured system will want to take him on if he can't be effective without being a rover, unless they just desperately need offense from their defense.

Watching Karlsson makes me understand more and more why Paul Coffey moved around so much in his career. He played with 8 teams in his NHL career and never lasted more than 7 years with one team, that's pretty wild for a HOFer.

 

[eXile3]

Oh no, a mid-1st is killing penalties, how terrible, don't people realize the NHL Draft produces 20 superstars every year that need 1st line/PP1 time so they can focus solely on scoring?

I mean, all scouting reports said he’s best in the offensive zone and the Michigan PP ran through him.

Instead let’s try to make him a defensive specialist like his coach was. Really setting a young player up to succeed.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I mean, all scouting reports said he’s best in the offensive zone and the Michigan PP ran through him.

Instead let’s try to make him a defensive specialist like his coach was. Really setting a young player up to succeed.

He’s playing first line in WBS. Learning to kill penalties helps make a player more well rounded and versatile.

 

[SEALBound]

I think this is revisionist history of the trade. Hextall and the Penguins were absolutely clowned on for that deal. It was from basically all aspects, they were dunked on from everywhere for that trade.

Media members said their sources were completely perplexed by it, with some reports saying that Hextall basically offered the 2nd before even hearing the Predators asking price. The entire analytics crowd hated it because Granlund had become a horrid analytical player. Combine those two with his contract left (3 years at $5 million) and the Penguins plan to play him in a completely different role (one he wouldn’t fit in), it’s not hard to see why the hockey world responded as it did.

“It was only a 2nd” is pretty much the only saving grace of that trade. It’s like trading for Daniel Sprong with the hopes he can be a Selke caliber center, it was just a downright bizarre decision for a NHL GM to make. Part of it was the flaws of Granlund, but another legitimate part of it was how the move just made no sense.

Chris Pryor, the AGM, pushed the trade and was sent packing with Hextall. Not very often a single trade tips the scale to that level. So to add to the list of "who was baffled", you can include FSG.

Wouldn't sullivan be hurting the floor of the Pens current roster?

The pens team as you and others mentioned is not very good. They are a medicore team which should/could be a WC1 or Metro #3 spot and likely lose R1 to better & younger rosters in NYR, NJD, and CAR

That they are now 2nd worst in the league is attributable to Sullivan and his shotty coaching

For the teams ceiling, its limited/hurt by Hextall's idiotic koves + Dubas idiotic moves.

The pens if retooled around by a good GM should be a better version of the CAPs (Crosby has been better then OV in 2023, 2024 and is likely still the better player this year despite a slow start).

The Caps retooled and got younger, faster and more deep (PLD in a lower insuitated role, Strome a few years back looks amazing now, Chychuran looks very good for very cheap cost, Logan Thompson for a 3rd).

If the Pens had that level of management they would be a legit playoff contender who despite their aging/elderly core could be contending for a deep run/cup if they had a stronger coach (ceiling raiser) then MS.

Management has f***ed the quality of team and support and Sullivan is a caveman who is fixated on his style of roster/tactics/strategies even if they fail to work/compliment the Pens players

I agree with the first half of what you said but I'm not sure if I agree with the idea that if the Penguins "retooled" they would be better (as even just as good as the Caps. The Caps took some pretty big leaps of faith in going for Chychrun and PLD, one of which carried a big contractual risk. I would suggest the Penguins took a similar risk in going for Karlsson. Its working out for the Caps and not for the Penguins. That's life.

One thing that I think some people get but others don't is that, it's not one thing. No matter how much Toronto fans want to convince the entire world everything is solely 100% Dubas's fault, it isn't. Same thing with Sullivan. Same thing with Jarry. Same thing with the entire roster. It's not one thing, it's everything. I would even go as far as saying Sid's loyalty and OCD-level of routine is as much part of the problem as anything else.

This is an organization that is running on four flat tires. Changing one (the GM, the coach, the roster, the system) is not going to get it down the road to win the race. This isn't a team that will be competing for the Cup any time soon no matter what changes are made.

Is is no "oh, if only they had done this one thing, they'd be a cup contender!" There is no lynchpin in this demise. With this team, it's Cup or bust. I wouldn't have any more positive or negative views if they had lost in the first or second round in the last two years. Teams get old, coaching systems get old, people get old. It happens.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

How are Pens fans feeling about FSG so far?

I know next to nothing about them but understand they have taken some heat for their management of the Red Sox and Liverpool in recent years, not sure how much of that is deserved or not.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Your GM just has a senior moment and quits a few weeks into the season. Your very successful ownership decides it’s not too invested anymore so gives the keys to a former player and popular NHL personality who had no recent success in Hextall and Burke, then sells the team to a faceless investment group.

My guess is that it's a similar situation as Michael Jordan, and it has to do with Estate Planning. In both cases, they essentially bought teams that were basically bankrupt with assumption of debt/forgiveness of owed salary. Fast forward, and the franchise is now valued at call it a billion dollars, so your net worth says you're a billionaire. But these aren't individuals that made billions in businesses that they created, they made a lot compared to the common man, but not at that level. So they're billionaires but it's not like they have billions in liquid assets sitting around. From a valuation standpoint, yeah a sports franchise is worth a ton, but from a cash-generating standpoint, not at the same level. The only way to realize your equity in the valuation is to sell the team. Otherwise.. you're now approaching your 60s, you obviously hope you hope to have many more years ahead of you, but you can't take it for granted. If you die owning the team, now your estate is going to be valued at a billion something dollars, and be left with a hefty Estate Tax. Remember that point about the Sport Franchise not being one that generates piles and piles of cash? So where's that going to come from..?

Essentially much easier now, sell the team, take the billion or whatever and diversify it into more liquid and income-generating assets. Much easier to estate plan whenever you do eventually pass.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How are Pens fans feeling about FSG so far?

I know next to nothing about them but understand they have taken some heat for their management of the Red Sox and Liverpool in recent years, not sure how much of that is deserved or not.

I don't think they've done anything for people to like them, and the team being asscheeks makes it easy to dislike them.

They seems hands off with the team, which is frustrating to see when the team looks as gross as it does. You can easily interpret "hands off" as "they don't care".