This is where the Russians go wrong
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Den said:I don't get it what are you discussing here? We are still better then you at the junior level. We have a positive balance in games with Canada (17-12-2). And a positive balance in elimination games as of late (4-2). So what's the talk about? You still have a job to do. Grind on
Those stats are misleading....Canada before 1982 used to send the previous years memorial cup winners to represent them, and only after did they send a true national team. Also instead of playing in Russia our great superstars who are within the age limit played in the NHL and many of these players were not released to the junior team. For instance some recent examples include, spezza, staal, horton, nash, crosby, boumeester,bergeron the addition of some of these players would have greatly improved our lineups and possibly turned some silvers into golds
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Den said:
No, I would say that in many cases (ie: the interpretation of charging), the rules are, basically, invented. The fault lies with the IIHF, which does not bother to properly instruct or train the officials it uses for these major tournaments on how it wants the games called.
Hockey games at the IIHF level are matches fought by three sides: Team A, Team B and the referees. Unfortunately, the referees often win, and hockey suffers for it.
Siberian said:
It looks like you're including all the russian swan dives in your careful studying.....
They were diving all over the place. I've never seen something so pathetic as when that russian got graced on the shoulder and went down like a ton of bricks and stayed on the ice for a while and then was icing the back of his neck on the bench. 
Resolute said:
I'll agree with most of this, in particular that NA refs are more consistent then Euros. We don't like NA refs, but that's because they usually kill our boys who are used to more hooking and less hitting.
McGuillicuddy
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- Sep 6, 2005
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Archijerej
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I agree with you Big Phill. I also noticed that difference some time ago. Old Soviet teams were like a machine, that was their strenght, but they were ofcourse very skilled individualy. Now they often look like a bunch of guys that play together for the first time, They lost their main strenght and a thing they were famous for. And I'm not talking about this WJC squad wich I havn't seen. I'm talking in general.
deandebean
Registered User
Digger12 said:
The younger russians on this forum don't know what the Soviet system was all about. It was about 5 men-units. It was about synchronicity. It was about controlling the puck in three zones. It was about being physically in shape like no other team.
The fall of the Soviet Empire brought individualism into the picture. Where the KLM line used to pass the puck like no other line in the league, today, it's all about being individualist.
Kaizer
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Macman
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- May 15, 2004
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Macman
It was also about taking the best players in the country and putting them on one team, Red Army, so they could play together year after year and thus be ready for international play. That's where the synchronicity came from. Now they're throwing teams together at the last minute like everyone else and discovering that sometimes the chemistry just isn't there.
deandebean said:
It was also about taking the best players in the country and putting them on one team, Red Army, so they could play together year after year and thus be ready for international play. That's where the synchronicity came from. Now they're throwing teams together at the last minute like everyone else and discovering that sometimes the chemistry just isn't there.
Russia totally reinvented that little hockey game in the 50-th. Because of Russia and mostley from the coaches and players coming from the russian hockey system or bandy(http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/2049/English/Bandyhistory.html), the ice hockey was never the same. Russia popularized this game in Scandinavia and Chekoslovakia. Not Canada, not NHL, Russia made this game global. I am not afraid to say, that Russians are the actual builders of the game, where Canadians invented it. Russians perfected it in many ways. Drop passes, five men unites, low and high cycling, rashing d, before Bobby Orr Russians used to have d-men joining the attack for decades. Five men cycling, break away passes, open ice hits, set up the rash behind a net and thousands more, which Canadians use or not today. Actually Canadians adopted 90% of Russian improvments and NHL look as any European league now. What you have in NHL is European style of hockey plus Canadian goonery and fights. So Canadians play Russian style of hockey with goons and intensity. How about to make this game as a show. How about Canadian coaches would train a ballet of ice, five men units. Scotty Bowman did that. But you need brains for that.
Jorge Garcia
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- Dec 9, 2004
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The great architect of Soviet hockey was Tarasov, who was a brilliant coach and innovator. But he based his system on The Hockey Handbook, written by Lloyd Percival, a Canadian sports scholar of the postwar years. Old-school NHL types didn't take Percival seriously, but the Russians sure did.
By the way, Bobby Orr was far from the first attacking Dman in the NHL. I'm afraid the Soviets didn't invent the drop pass, the breakaway, the open-ice hit, or organizing the rush from behind the net, either.
I will give Tarasov credit for the five-man unit, the stress on fitness (inspired by Percival), cycling and the soccer-inspired belief in puck possession.
And thanks, Senator. We will take credit for fighting and goonery. Unless you include spearing and kicking as part of "goonery." In that case, the Russians were major contributors to that, too.
By the way, Bobby Orr was far from the first attacking Dman in the NHL. I'm afraid the Soviets didn't invent the drop pass, the breakaway, the open-ice hit, or organizing the rush from behind the net, either.
I will give Tarasov credit for the five-man unit, the stress on fitness (inspired by Percival), cycling and the soccer-inspired belief in puck possession.
And thanks, Senator. We will take credit for fighting and goonery. Unless you include spearing and kicking as part of "goonery." In that case, the Russians were major contributors to that, too.
RedAce
Registered User
Senator is so very right on many points,, I have follwed Russian/Soviet hockey very closely for about 15 years now and i have put together a great collection of Russian hockey on video. so i have seen all the big games and great players and the style the Russians play. The Russian took the game of hockey to another level and they had the rest of the world in awe of them in the 70's and 80's.
What has happened is the rest of the world is now copying what the russian have always done. Look at for example at the training techniques on and of the ice that is now used by team canada and team usa, they are doing the same things the russians did so long ago. Idividualizim has hurt the russian game unfortunetly and also another point that no one seem to mention, it seem s that it is team Russia that is always traveling to north america to play in North america touroments.
That traveling those time changes that takes a toll on you how offten is it that team canada goes to Russia to play??? it's seems to me that when team canada does have to go outside of Norht america they don't seem to do as well.
Anyway the point is that mother Russia needs to get back to her proper spot as the Greatest hockey nation on earth.
What has happened is the rest of the world is now copying what the russian have always done. Look at for example at the training techniques on and of the ice that is now used by team canada and team usa, they are doing the same things the russians did so long ago. Idividualizim has hurt the russian game unfortunetly and also another point that no one seem to mention, it seem s that it is team Russia that is always traveling to north america to play in North america touroments.
That traveling those time changes that takes a toll on you how offten is it that team canada goes to Russia to play??? it's seems to me that when team canada does have to go outside of Norht america they don't seem to do as well.
Anyway the point is that mother Russia needs to get back to her proper spot as the Greatest hockey nation on earth.
Archijerej
Registered User
SENATOR said:
. I shouldn't really reply to this post but whatever. As a Pole I may be seen as biased against Russians but I think it's the other way around. I've always been a fan of Russian/Soviet hockey. My dad's stories about great Soviet teams got me interested in hockey. So, to point just one thing from your post: Chechoslovaks had strong teams already in the 30's when hockey wasn't even known in Soviet Union. Heck, even Poles had strong teams back then. I've been reading your posts for some time and I find it quite amusing that a Russian living in a western country, probably for a long time can be such Homo Sovieticus. You're a Homo Sovieticus . Your brain is still somewhere in the 50's. And the "you need brains for that" stuff directed for a country you're living in and is beating Russians in hockey constantly (lately) is not only extremely rude but just plain stupid.
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Macman
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- May 15, 2004
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There's no denying the influence of Russian hockey, particularly in the area of fitness and a swirling, speedy attack where wingers criss-crossed the ice, etc. But to suggest they invented rushing defencemen or open ice hitting is ludicrous in the extreme. Take a look at '72 Series. The Russian defencemen were very much stay-at-home, defensively aware guys who fed the puck quickly to their wingers. It was Canada who had rushing D-men like Brad Park, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe. Then, of course, there was Orr, who was injured.
And I think if you investigate the history or Swedish and Finnish hockey, you'll find two Canadians -- Billy Harris and Carl Brewer -- who had a tremendous influence on their systems in the '60s and 70s.
And as for five-man units. Who cares? How influential was that?
We've learned from each other.
And I think if you investigate the history or Swedish and Finnish hockey, you'll find two Canadians -- Billy Harris and Carl Brewer -- who had a tremendous influence on their systems in the '60s and 70s.
And as for five-man units. Who cares? How influential was that?
We've learned from each other.
You all missing the point. What do you mean strong teams????????
Before Russians, there was no figure skating to speak. Before brazilians there was no football as we know it today. Before Russians there was no ice hockey, just mindless, boring up and down play. Watching TML any year in the past would put you to sleep in a second. Watching Russians play and you ask yourslef, why this game is still not played like this in Canada Do you feel the drift??
Russians totally reinvented the game and by doing so, they imposed their way on ice hockey in Europe and North America. Winning all those Olympics and Championships make people think. Also, may be because Russians were handing away lopsided wins to Poland, Finns and trashing to no end all the others. Their system was studied and adopted by the other hockey nations. Canadian style of play was put in the garbage bag and never EVER after that Canadians were wanted as hockey people in Europe. I mean EVER. Before King came last year. I see european scouts in Canada and even European coaches.=============
Before Russians, there was no figure skating to speak. Before brazilians there was no football as we know it today. Before Russians there was no ice hockey, just mindless, boring up and down play. Watching TML any year in the past would put you to sleep in a second. Watching Russians play and you ask yourslef, why this game is still not played like this in Canada Do you feel the drift??
Russians totally reinvented the game and by doing so, they imposed their way on ice hockey in Europe and North America. Winning all those Olympics and Championships make people think. Also, may be because Russians were handing away lopsided wins to Poland, Finns and trashing to no end all the others. Their system was studied and adopted by the other hockey nations. Canadian style of play was put in the garbage bag and never EVER after that Canadians were wanted as hockey people in Europe. I mean EVER. Before King came last year. I see european scouts in Canada and even European coaches.=============
If you know, Russian system of interchangable attack allows any d-man to rash the puck. It was done already in the 60-th. It is a routine play now in NHL. To play five men unit you need a very high skill team. I beg that Ottawa would play Spezza line and parring them with Redden and Volchenkov all the time. By doing so, you would create a clatch pyaterka. Scoring timely goals but mostley destroying teams in the playoffs. Zero tolorence rule allows now to play hockey at high speeds and that's why NHL would dig deeper into a bag of Russian inventions.
Homo Sovieticus Man. Awesome!!Archijerej said:
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
RedAce said:
I don't know, 2 golds and a silver in the last three European-based World Championships seems pretty good to me.
Archijerej
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. Fixed.
McGuillicuddy
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RedAce said:
Don't be arrogant. Now, certainly the world has benefitted tremendously from Russian hockey. A great many innovations have come out of Russia since she seriously took up the game. But lets make one thing perfectly clear. Russia has never been the greatest hockey nation on earth, and it sure as hell has never been her "proper spot".
Canada has always been the greatest hockey nation on earth. And do you know why? It's not because we produce more of the best players than any other country, it's not because during best-on-best competition we have won more than any other country, and it's not because we invented the game. It's because no country in the world lives and breathes hockey from its very soul like Canada does. Hockey is part of our identity like none other.
You can reference all the Russian victories in world championships and Olympics against 2nd and 3rd tier opposition if you like, and you can pretend that Russian hockey invented everything but the water bottle, but you're only fooling youself man.
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JrHockeyFan
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- May 20, 2005
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Wrong
Actually I think you are wrong on both counts. Russia used to be synonymous with winning through team work. Their approach has swung a bit too far away from the controlled environment the players used to work in. Now we have some guys playing for the Russian side who not only stand out individually, but have become bigger hot dogs than a lot of North American players. That is quite a shift. A more balanced approach would help them.
This Canadian team was not one that was full of superior players. This championship was won through hard work and team work. They had to play Sutter's system or not play at all. Sound somewhat familiar?
As for your complaints about the referring impact, there is absolutely no merit to your argument. If a biased fan wants to sift through any game and look for things to complain about I am sure he will find something.
Russia had their chances with a 15 to 3 edge in shots and failed to score. That is what cost them the game. After that the Russian team really did not put together much in the way of continued pressure. The Canadian's won through hard work and sticking to the system.
Siberian said:
Actually I think you are wrong on both counts. Russia used to be synonymous with winning through team work. Their approach has swung a bit too far away from the controlled environment the players used to work in. Now we have some guys playing for the Russian side who not only stand out individually, but have become bigger hot dogs than a lot of North American players. That is quite a shift. A more balanced approach would help them.
This Canadian team was not one that was full of superior players. This championship was won through hard work and team work. They had to play Sutter's system or not play at all. Sound somewhat familiar?
As for your complaints about the referring impact, there is absolutely no merit to your argument. If a biased fan wants to sift through any game and look for things to complain about I am sure he will find something.
Russia had their chances with a 15 to 3 edge in shots and failed to score. That is what cost them the game. After that the Russian team really did not put together much in the way of continued pressure. The Canadian's won through hard work and sticking to the system.
JrHockeyFan
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- May 20, 2005
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Perspective folks
There is lots of room to share the development of the game of hockey. It has never been all Canada, but it certainly was not all Russia either. In fact the Russian system of play borrowed heavily from old style Canadian play. Take that from an old Canadian.
As for Russian domination of the World and Olympic stage, this is a two sided issue. For many years the amateur hockey in Canada declined. Canada could send a damned good amateur club team to compete. From the 50's onward hockey progressively shifted to the pro arena. As the NHL expanded the number of skilled players left in the amateur ranks dwindled. Bunny Ahearne made sure pro players would never compete for Canada.
Meanwhile the Russian "amateur" teams began to dominate. Men who did nothing but play hockey for a living formed a single super team that had continuity on its side. These teams were very good and dominated the world stage, but they were scarcely amateurs.
Now with the shifts away from "amateur status" and the even bigger political shifts, the game has moved forward again. There is much more parity among hockey playing nations. But make no mistake about it. Russia's period of domination was more based on world and sports politics than style of play.
There is lots of room to share the development of the game of hockey. It has never been all Canada, but it certainly was not all Russia either. In fact the Russian system of play borrowed heavily from old style Canadian play. Take that from an old Canadian.
As for Russian domination of the World and Olympic stage, this is a two sided issue. For many years the amateur hockey in Canada declined. Canada could send a damned good amateur club team to compete. From the 50's onward hockey progressively shifted to the pro arena. As the NHL expanded the number of skilled players left in the amateur ranks dwindled. Bunny Ahearne made sure pro players would never compete for Canada.
Meanwhile the Russian "amateur" teams began to dominate. Men who did nothing but play hockey for a living formed a single super team that had continuity on its side. These teams were very good and dominated the world stage, but they were scarcely amateurs.
Now with the shifts away from "amateur status" and the even bigger political shifts, the game has moved forward again. There is much more parity among hockey playing nations. But make no mistake about it. Russia's period of domination was more based on world and sports politics than style of play.
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