Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

[Hollywood Cannon]

A big win and a solid deal?

What?!

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Briere had a big win in his first major trade, Provorov & 5th and two salary dumps (Peterson, Johansen) for CBJ 1st, Colorado 1st, (2) 2nds and Grans.
Hasn't lost anyone of value

So when I say that the price to acquire Risto was the traded assets plus Gostisbehere and the draft capital it cost to dump him, I will be met with no resistance now? Because that was all one thought without many months between them like this lumping.

You know I'm never going to agree to listicle-style hindsight trade analysis, so I'm fine agreeing to disagree on the rest of it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If they can't "win" trades (really, most of the time break even, steals are rare, only so many idiots to go around) or draft well, it doesn't matter what strategy they take.

Look at the Rangers, they missed on #2, #7, #9, if Panarin and Fox didn't force their way to NY, and Shesterkin was the lottery pick 4th rd goalie, they'd be a bottom ten feeder indefinitely.
Or Detroit, or Buffalo, or . . .

The strategy is less important than the implementation.
Briere had a big win in his first major trade, Provorov & 5th and two salary dumps (Peterson, Johansen) for CBJ 1st, Colorado 1st, (2) 2nds and Grans.
Hasn't lost anyone of value

We'll see about the Gauthier deal, if they can turn around Drysdale, it's a solid deal (they also have Anaheim's 2nd, which is looking like a top 40 pick).
Gaither so far is nothing special, 29g 2-6 8 (ES) which prorates to 23 points.
We'll see how he progresses, but right now he's looking like a less physical version of Tippett.
Big fast volume shooter who's an adventure defensively.

Current draft position:
#13 (PHL), #18 (Col), #24 (Edm), #38 (Ana), #40 (CBJ), #45 (PHL)

They don't even break even.

 

[Beef Invictus]

A big win and a solid deal?

What?!

If you just pretend that the flyers only do good things, then that means they're good, right?


The thing I didn't get with the whole crowd who have religious fealty to Flyers management is how they never wonder why this team is never good despite always making good moves.

 

[deadhead]

So when I say that the price to acquire Risto was the traded assets plus Gostisbehere and the draft capital it cost to dump him, I will be met with no resistance now? Because that was all one thought without many months between them like this lumping.

You know I'm never going to agree to listicle-style hindsight trade analysis, so I'm fine agreeing to disagree on the rest of it.

That was the price but not the intent.

AV made it clear he wanted Voracek and Ghost gone.
Since he had 3 years left on his deal, and had coached the beset season since 2011, he had the leverage to get his way.

Thus Voracek for Atkinson (equal contracts for equal injury prone players) and a 2nd to dump Ghost.
That was going to happen independent of Risto, Risto was how CF used his new found cap room.

Risto I think was CF's fantasy. GMs lust for physical RHDs for the playoffs (see rental payments for Chariot [Zito] and Savard [TB]). CF thought they needed that kind of player. Which he may actually be, after two years of Shaw's tutelage, and why he may be in demand this March.

If you just pretend that the flyers only do good things, then that means they're good, right?


The thing I didn't get with the whole crowd who have religious fealty to Flyers management is how they never wonder why this team is never good despite always making good moves.

There is no "Flyer management." That's your stalking horse.
There is Briere, he makes the trades. With input from Jones, Torts and scouts, but it's his decision.

What Hextall or Holmgren or Fletcher did is irrelevant.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[JojoTheWhale]

That was the price

I will take this. Thank you.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

There is no "Flyer management."

Agree.

To your point though, it's only been a few weeks since the comment about TORTS having input on who (or what) the scouting team should target, no? Briere does indeed "make the trades", but at whose behest?

 

[deadhead]

Agree.

To your point though, it's only been a few weeks since the comment about TORTS having input on who (or what) the scouting team should target, no? Briere does indeed "make the trades", but at whose behest?

On well managed teams, coaches have input.
You think Howie doesn't listen to his coaches, especially Stoutland?

When putting together a draft board, a good organization knows the weights it puts on different prospect attributes (physical and intangible) and communicates that to scouts. Coaches get input into that process but the GM is the final arbiter.

There is no sign that Torts/Briere/Jones aren't on the same page, that they have a fairly coherent view of team philosophy and strategy.

Torts is the most pessimistic, as is his nature, Jones the most optimistic b/c he has to sell this approach to STH, Briere tends to say little of consequence.

 

[Danko]

The fact that someone has Frost listed as being on the roster in 28. That man may not be on the roster in 28 days.

 

[deadhead]

Doubt Frost is getting traded anytime soon. It would be a major deal, b/c you'd trade him to get a better center.

Both Frost and Cates are auditioning this season, so far with the new lines, both are having excellent stretches, but have to sustain for 50 more games.

 

[freakydallas13]

Doubt Frost is getting traded anytime soon. It would be a major deal, b/c you'd trade him to get a better center.

Both Frost and Cates are auditioning this season, so far with the new lines, both are having excellent stretches, but have to sustain for 50 more games.

Cates is on pace for 22 points, which is great for a 4th liner and bad for anything above that.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Cates is on pace for 22 points, which is great for a 4th liner and bad for anything above that.

Just waiting for that unlocked potential John keeps talking about.

 

[deadhead]

Cates upside is a 3C.
Right now he's playing with Foerster and Brink, putting up great metrics but struggling to finish.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That was the price but not the intent.

AV made it clear he wanted Voracek and Ghost gone.
Since he had 3 years left on his deal, and had coached the beset season since 2011, he had the leverage to get his way.

Thus Voracek for Atkinson (equal contracts for equal injury prone players) and a 2nd to dump Ghost.
That was going to happen independent of Risto, Risto was how CF used his new found cap room.

Risto I think was CF's fantasy. GMs lust for physical RHDs for the playoffs (see rental payments for Chariot [Zito] and Savard [TB]). CF thought they needed that kind of player. Which he may actually be, after two years of Shaw's tutelage, and why he may be in demand this March.


There is no "Flyer management." That's your stalking horse.
There is Briere, he makes the trades. With input from Jones, Torts and scouts, but it's his decision.

What Hextall or Holmgren or Fletcher did is irrelevant.

Of course there is "Flyers Management." The one common denominator of everything, whose connections with his same level of thinking have flooded the front office and dominates their approach to the sport, influencing everything. Setting trends and priorities that transcend any individual coach or GM.

Ridiculous that you've misdirected this role to Homer for years and now say "nope not real." You yourself have repeatedly admitted that this is true, you've just insisted that somehow Holmgren is the source of it and not the actual obvious guy.

 

[VladDrag]

Cates upside is a 3C.
Right now he's playing with Foerster and Brink, putting up great metrics but struggling to finish.

We have 2 full seasons, and 30 games of this season, that is showing Cates is not a great offensive player. He's shown that he's struggled to convert chances over that entire time.

He's 25 years old. There's nothing in any dataset that shows he has middle 6 centering abilities. That doesn't mean he's a bad player. Typically the team is better when he's on the ice.

But what are we doing here?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Beware of anyone equating what NFL coaching staffs do with NHL jobs. You might as well compare a fuse and Saturn.

 

[deadhead]

We have 2 full seasons, and 30 games of this season, that is showing Cates is not a great offensive player. He's shown that he's struggled to convert chances over that entire time.

He's 25 years old. There's nothing in any dataset that shows he has middle 6 centering abilities. That doesn't mean he's a bad player. Typically the team is better when he's on the ice.

But what are we doing here?

He's 25 but didn't play center in college.
Was a defensive specialist at center as a rookie, played LW the second half of last season.
So it's not like he has a lot of experience at center.
Right now his line is creating a lot of scoring chances but not finishing, but that's as much on Foerster and Brink as on Cates.

But that's what rebuilding is about, patiently trying to develop players and letting their play dictate their future use.

There's the a matter of chemistry on lines, Cates' strong point is puck retrieval, he has great hands in the crowded areas, Brink is the playmaker, Foerster the shooter and net front presence. It's worked so far in terms of generating scoring chances, we'll see if they learn to finish.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He's 25 but didn't play center in college.
Was a defensive specialist at center as a rookie, played LW the second half of last season.
So it's not like he has a lot of experience at center.
Right now his line is creating a lot of scoring chances but not finishing, but that's as much on Foerster and Brink as on Cates.

But that's what rebuilding is about, patiently trying to develop players and letting their play dictate their future use.

There's the a matter of chemistry on lines, Cates' strong point is puck retrieval, he has great hands in the crowded areas, Brink is the playmaker, Foerster the shooter and net front presence. It's worked so far in terms of generating scoring chances, we'll see if they learn to finish.

He isn't a 3C