Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 3 - Flyers Rumors and Media Mentions: Never Ending Circles

[FlyerNutter]

He should have tried to sneak onto the Hurricanes' plane last night and request asylum.

 

[Beef Invictus]

 

[kudymen]

Frost is not going to suddenly blossom elsewhere, he may score more but he's going to be a role player where ever he goes. He simply doesn't have "it," that intangible quality that top players possess. TK isn't more talented than Frost, he's certainly not as big, but the difference on ice jumps out at you.

I think it's time to move on b/c he's not a good fit here, he's best on a finesse team. On a PO team, he's a 3C and won't get the same chances he got here. And he'll probably thrive in a sheltered role where he's not asked to do too much.

The problem here is expectations were too high and the team too thin, so he was asked to play a bigger role than he can handle. Some players rise to that kind of challenge, others are exposed.

The idea he was "ruined" is silly, he had two years that were about as much as you'd expect from a late 1st rd center (compare to Laughton and Poehling, both drafted ahead of him). He improved on defense, but he's not a high motor physical forward. He's a second tier finesse scorer. He's opportunistic, but doesn't drive play.

Laughable and dishonest.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Frost is not going to suddenly blossom elsewhere, he may score more but he's going to be a role player where ever he goes. He simply doesn't have "it," that intangible quality that top players possess. TK isn't more talented than Frost, he's certainly not as big, but the difference on ice jumps out at you.

I think it's time to move on b/c he's not a good fit here, he's best on a finesse team. On a PO team, he's a 3C and won't get the same chances he got here. And he'll probably thrive in a sheltered role where he's not asked to do too much.

The problem here is expectations were too high and the team too thin, so he was asked to play a bigger role than he can handle. Some players rise to that kind of challenge, others are exposed.

The idea he was "ruined" is silly, he had two years that were about as much as you'd expect from a late 1st rd center (compare to Laughton and Poehling, both drafted ahead of him). He improved on defense, but he's not a high motor physical forward. He's a second tier finesse scorer. He's opportunistic, but doesn't drive play.

I think that is the classic problem this board has. All of our prospects are valuable and underperforming not because they aren't as good as we originally thought, but because of something the Flyers did or didn't do. Of course that certainly plays into it in different circumstances, but sometimes the fact is like yous aid the expectations were just not realistic to begin with. I would wager pretty much any player is going to score more on a better team, that is true league-wide and for almost every player. The question is how much. If he goes to a playoff team I don't think he turns into a PPG player but he almost certainly won't score at a lower rate than he will or has here.

The question I would post to the folks who believe Frost is more valuable or better than he what is being discussed is would we want to trade for a comparable player and how much would we give up? I can't imagine this board would want to part with a first or more for a 25 year old who has a career high of 46 points and is unhappy about his playing time so I think it is unreasonable to expect that Briere will get something better than a first or more for him. Perhaps I am wrong about that but I am sure if someone took a look they could find a comparable player and the general consensus would be that a first would be too high and too risky.

You insisted Ghost was washed and a #7 to justify the team losing his trade, how has that worked out? Frost has turned out two years of low-end second line level play and he's just hitting his prime. It's goofy to write him off this severely. The chances of you being wrong again are high.

A lot of people thought this, apparently including other NHL GMs and a lot people were obviously wrong. That doesn't mean every other young player with concerns are unfounded. The chances of you being wrong about Frost are just as high as someone else being wrong in the opposite direction. I am sure I could find examples of you saying a player was or wasn't going to excel for a variety of reasons and you were wrong. Off the top of my head I remember being flamed relentlessly for telling people not to get overexcited about Philippe Myers or was flamed when I posed the question about Sam Morin potentially being a bust (this of course was back when the line of thinking was patience and not to rush anyone and defenseman always take longer to develop and so do bigger players blah blah blah).

He's a 40pt center with 60-70 point upside, that is a damn fine player at 25 yrs old.

Where is he scoring those extra 20-30 points? In Philly? Is he going to be a second liner scoring 70 points on a PO team? First liner on a bad team? He's gotten plenty of PP time the last two years and has been given the opportunity to succeed. Yes I know Torts has healthy scratched him before and benched him mid-game but he's been relatively healthy and involved. If he isn't scoring at a 60-70 point clip now how much is his fault? Or is it all the coaches? Coaches and teammates? Or maybe he just isn't that good?

My only qualm about trading him is that we aren't going to get much for him. I'd rather just keep him around and hope he increases his value if he isn't happy here. If they can get something of value I'd trade him. He isn't making any significant impact on this team and you can blame whomever you want for that.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think that is the classic problem this board has. All of our prospects are valuable and underperforming not because they aren't as good as we originally thought, but because of something the Flyers did or didn't do. Of course that certainly plays into it in different circumstances, but sometimes the fact is like yous aid the expectations were just not realistic to begin with. I would wager pretty much any player is going to score more on a better team, that is true league-wide and for almost every player. The question is how much. If he goes to a playoff team I don't think he turns into a PPG player but he almost certainly won't score at a lower rate than he will or has here.

The question I would post to the folks who believe Frost is more valuable or better than he what is being discussed is would we want to trade for a comparable player and how much would we give up? I can't imagine this board would want to part with a first or more for a 25 year old who has a career high of 46 points and is unhappy about his playing time so I think it is unreasonable to expect that Briere will get something better than a first or more for him. Perhaps I am wrong about that but I am sure if someone took a look they could find a comparable player and the general consensus would be that a first would be too high and too risky.



A lot of people thought this, apparently including other NHL GMs and a lot people were obviously wrong. That doesn't mean every other young player with concerns are unfounded. The chances of you being wrong about Frost are just as high as someone else being wrong in the opposite direction. I am sure I could find examples of you saying a player was or wasn't going to excel for a variety of reasons and you were wrong. Off the top of my head I remember being flamed relentlessly for telling people not to get overexcited about Philippe Myers or was flamed when I posed the question about Sam Morin potentially being a bust (this of course was back when the line of thinking was patience and not to rush anyone and defenseman always take longer to develop and so do bigger players blah blah blah).


Where is he scoring those extra 20-30 points? In Philly? Is he going to be a second liner scoring 70 points on a PO team? First liner on a bad team? He's gotten plenty of PP time the last two years and has been given the opportunity to succeed. Yes I know Torts has healthy scratched him before and benched him mid-game but he's been relatively healthy and involved. If he isn't scoring at a 60-70 point clip now how much is his fault? Or is it all the coaches? Coaches and teammates? Or maybe he just isn't that good?

My only qualm about trading him is that we aren't going to get much for him. I'd rather just keep him around and hope he increases his value if he isn't happy here. If they can get something of value I'd trade him. He isn't making any significant impact on this team and you can blame whomever you want for that.

The season isn't already over, and he's being completely written off. Frost was never going to be a star player. The lower tier players are not consistent. They will go hot and cold, they will have down years. The idea that this is what he is now and forever, and the prior play is dead and gone is weird, but that is indeed how people are talking.

We've seen this countless times before.

 

[WolfOfBroadStreet14]

Wonder if a Farabee + Frost for Cozens would work as a base and what adds from either side even it out. That’s pretty even cap wise

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I have Cozens as negative value. Prepared to die on that hill.

 

[Sombastate]

Cozens and Frost basically had identical years last year, and so far this year. Cozens has played more NHL games and had a higher draft pedigree. Cozens doesn't appear to be the improvement a lot of people may think he is.

 

[volnoir]

The season isn't already over, and he's being completely written off. Frost was never going to be a star player. The lower tier players are not consistent. They will go hot and cold, they will have down years. The idea that this is what he is now and forever, and the prior play is dead and gone is weird, but that is indeed how people are talking.

We've seen this countless times before.

This is it right here. Somehow out of all of our underachieving players, Frost must take the fall and get scratched. Laughts scratched? nope. Cates scratched? nope. You aren't even giving him the opportunity to get better or providing consistent behavior with your scratches. It just seems petty and is detrimental to the value of a player if you do want them traded. Ideally you would be rolling him out in the 2C slot, letting him find his game, string together 5-10 solid games then look to see about getting a return if you want him off your team. Not run him into the ground, call him garbage, scratch him nightly, only to force your GM to accept a 5th rounder in 2026 for him.

 

[deadhead]

Frost had a horrible start to this season. He'll get another shot, but he earned his demotion.
Not just a scoring drought, but horrible metrics and slow skating to boot.

Cates is outskating Frost right now, he struggles to finish but is very active and has saved a few goals with heads up plays in the D-zone. Still struggling with when to take risks on offense, it's not natural for him right now. He's auditioning for 3C/4C, not a top six role.

Laughton has been up and down, he's been better than Frost, but really should be a LW.
Torts just called him out, Torts is an equal opportunity abuser.

It would be hard to project any of them into a top 6 role in a season or two.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Frost had a horrible start to this season. He'll get another shot, but he earned his demotion.
Not just a scoring drought, but horrible metrics and slow skating to boot.

Cates is outskating Frost right now, he struggles to finish but is very active and has saved a few goals with heads up plays in the D-zone. Still struggling with when to take risks on offense, it's not natural for him right now. He's auditioning for 3C/4C, not a top six orle.

Laughton has been up and down, he's been better than Frost, but really should be a LW.
Torts just called him out, Torts is an equal opportunity abuser.

It would be hard to project any of them into a top 6 role in a season or two.

You aren't serious

 

[trostol]

Frost earned it but the dozen or so others on the team haven't..gotcha

 

[freakydallas13]

Frost had a horrible start to this season. He'll get another shot, but he earned his demotion.
Not just a scoring drought, but horrible metrics and slow skating to boot.

Yeah but we have already established that some players play terrible and get scratched while others play terrible and don't, so that is kind of a nothing point.

Cates is outskating Frost right now, he struggles to finish but is very active and has saved a few goals with heads up plays in the D-zone. Still struggling with when to take risks on offense, it's not natural for him right now. He's auditioning for 3C/4C, not a top six role.

What happened to every other team loving Cates as middle 6 center?

 

[renberg]

Cates can’t hit the broadside of a barn. Laughton is a corpse on skates. By all means play them over Frost. Frost has been jacked around by the Flyers since he showed up. He was accused of being soft so he banged on the boards with the big guys and broke his collarbone. Then he was accused of being weak on defense so he concentrated on that to the detriment of his offensive game. He’s been compared to a toilet seat; verbally abused by his coach in the media and possibly physically confronted. Under these circumstances would anyone wonder why his confidence is shot and he plays tentatively on the ice. The Flyers management is guilty of malpractice with his usage and development.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Cates can’t hit the broadside of a barn. Laughton is a corpse on skates. By all means play them over Frost. Frost has been jacked around by the Flyers since he showed up. He was accused of being soft so he banged on the boards with the big guys and broke his collarbone. Then he was accused of being weak on defense so he concentrated on that to the detriment of his offensive game. He’s been compared to a toilet seat; verbally abused by his coach in the media and possibly physically confronted. Under these circumstances would anyone wonder why his confidence is shot and he plays tentatively on the ice. The Flyers management is guilty of malpractice with his usage and development.

You even downplayed the stupidity!

They lambasted him for being too focused on offense and not enough on defense. So he focused heavily on defense, just as they demanded. They then publicly lashed him for neglecting offense like they asked, and demoted him.

There are people who consider this good development that should not be questioned.

 

[bennysflyers16]

Frost is gonna be the next Roslovic after he is paroled from Torts.

 

[deadhead]

Let's see what happened to Roslovic:

2020-21: 48g 8-16 24 at ES, pro rates to 13-26 39 - Tort's last season in CBJ
2021-22: 81g 18-20 38
2022-23: 77g 7-25 32
2023-24: 59g 8-18 26, prorates to 11-24 35

 

[BiggE]

Last season and this one
Cates 75gp 21pts age 25
Frost 87gp 47pts age 25
Poehling 94gp 35pts age 25
Laughton 102gp 46pts age 30

But yeah, Frost is the guy to get rid of

 

[WolfOfBroadStreet14]

Last season and this one
Cates 75gp 21pts age 25
Frost 87gp 47pts age 25
Poehling 94gp 35pts age 25
Laughton 102gp 46pts age 30

But yeah, Frost is the guy to get rid of

Production wise that’s all pretty brutal but Frost is definitely the skinniest kid at fat camp

 

[Striiker]

Incredible show

 

[renberg]

Last season and this one
Cates 75gp 21pts age 25
Frost 87gp 47pts age 25
Poehling 94gp 35pts age 25
Laughton 102gp 46pts age 30

But yeah, Frost is the guy to get rid of

Frost obviously plays the wrong way.

 

[deadhead]

Frost isn't worth a long-term deal, and I doubt he'll take 3C money.

So unless you can get a bargain 2 year deal to buy time for prospects to develop, you're better off using him as part of a package for a young center.

I'd be happy to package Frost, Brink/Foerster and a 2nd rd pick for a 2C 25 or under.
A compression deal at wing to upgrade center.

To me, Michkov, TK, Couts, Farabee, Tippett are the five "top six" forwards on the team.
Then you have Frost, Foerster and Brink.
Followed by Cates, Laughton and Poehling

So if I can upgrade the second group I'd do so.
You can fill in the bottom six with guys like Richard, Lycksell and Tuomaala, then Jett, followed by Barkey, Bump, etc.

 

[Lord Defect]

Frost isn't worth a long-term deal, and I doubt he'll take 3C money.

So unless you can get a bargain 2 year deal to buy time for prospects to develop, you're better off using him as part of a package for a young center.

I'd be happy to package Frost, Brink/Foerster and a 2nd rd pick for a 2C 25 or under.
A compression deal at wing to upgrade center.

To me, Michkov, TK, Couts, Farabee, Tippett are the five "top six" forwards on the team.
Then you have Frost, Foerster and Brink.
Followed by Cates, Laughton and Poehling

So if I can upgrade the second group I'd do so.
You can fill in the bottom six with guys like Richard, Lycksell and Tuomaala, then Jett, followed by Barkey, Bump, etc.

Almost like he should try for a mid level bridge deal and hope he can outplay his coaching, or hope for a new bit of scenery.

 

[Striiker]

It’d be hilarious for them to trade Frost but keep Tippett

A perfect example of why this org will remain awful.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Frost isn't worth a long-term deal, and I doubt he'll take 3C money.

So unless you can get a bargain 2 year deal to buy time for prospects to develop, you're better off using him as part of a package for a young center.

I'd be happy to package Frost, Brink/Foerster and a 2nd rd pick for a 2C 25 or under.
A compression deal at wing to upgrade center.

To me, Michkov, TK, Couts, Farabee, Tippett are the five "top six" forwards on the team.
Then you have Frost, Foerster and Brink.
Followed by Cates, Laughton and Poehling

So if I can upgrade the second group I'd do so.
You can fill in the bottom six with guys like Richard, Lycksell and Tuomaala, then Jett, followed by Barkey, Bump, etc.

They can always fill the bottom of the roster with guys like that, but they *never do.

*Injuries