Rumor: Things Not Left Unsaid 2, More Flyers Rumors & Media Mentions: Say It Like You Mean It

[JojoTheWhale]

The odds of all those things coming together to overcome this team's shit management have to be akin to winning the Powerball.

Florida is a good team even if they weren't a favorite. Edmonton has the best player since Lemieux left the game. That's not "getting lucky." The Flyers have nothing, and aren't trying to even get anything.

Beef, Florida was the top projected regular season team in hockey by multiple major outlets’ models. You’re getting gaslit to hell and back.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Beef, Florida was the top projected regular season team in hockey by multiple major outlets’ models. You’re getting gaslit to hell and back.

I get being skeptical on Edmonton as even now in this series I still am. I think they’re a pretty flawed in reality that’s propped up by McDavid, Draisaitl, & now at this point Bouchard. I feel like it’s pretty much all on those guys to play at or near full capabilities for them to win. If you keep them in check which Florida has done so far two games (Bob just stole game one & Florida just flat outplayed them in game two).

But Edmonton’s had a deep run before with that formula essentially it’s not like it’s out of the question.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

That's only true if all teams have an equal chance. They do not. Teams that are well managed or have high end talent are in far better position than a team like the Flyers, which has a bucket of manure and three arcade tokens they hope to pass off as quarters.

Yeah but it's a chicken or the egg kind of situation. If you dig down into the team with high end talent, I suspect you'll find that they got that high end talent by and large by being mismanaged. The oilers are in the spot they're in because they were a shit organization for years. Vegas is an outlier and Florida is too but to a lesser extent as guys like Barkov and Ekblad came after years of sucking. The Hawks and Pens and Kings from the 2010s-ish became powerhouses after being shit for years. I can't think of an organization that was a regular playoff contender who brought in a team or turned a corner or what have you without lucking into a top draft pick or two or hit on a random late round pick or something like that and won a cup.

Detroit probably is the only organization that just was consistently killing it without the run of shit to stock the cupboard with all-stars. And the vast majority of these teams aren't tanking on purpose other than the Oilers/Pens when a generational talent is available, they just suck and they suck because of bad coaching/drafting/managing/etc.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeah but it's a chicken or the egg kind of situation. If you dig down into the team with high end talent, I suspect you'll find that they got that high end talent by and large by being mismanaged. The oilers are in the spot they're in because they were a shit organization for years. Vegas is an outlier and Florida is too but to a lesser extent as guys like Barkov and Ekblad came after years of sucking. The Hawks and Pens and Kings from the 2010s-ish became powerhouses after being shit for years. I can't think of an organization that was a regular playoff contender who brought in a team or turned a corner or what have you without lucking into a top draft pick or two or hit on a random late round pick or something like that and won a cup.

Detroit probably is the only organization that just was consistently killing it without the run of shit to stock the cupboard with all-stars. And the vast majority of these teams aren't tanking on purpose other than the Oilers/Pens when a generational talent is available, they just suck and they suck because of bad coaching/drafting/managing/etc.

They became powerhouses because they got talent from being shit, but then also made good moves after that. They didn't just get lucky.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

They became powerhouses because they got talent from being shit, but then also made good moves after that. They didn't just get lucky.

All this discourse made me think how the 10 cup final team came together. Most of the best forwards were drafted (Richards, Carter, Giroux, Gagne, JvR) and the others were acquired via FA or trade (Briere for FA, Hartnel technically and Leino were traded for). All of the role players were signed or traded for (Laperrier famously signed and announced to be the 3C but dude was RW).

All of the D was traded for I believe, but they traded for good D. Timonen and Pronger both #1 D. Carle and Coburn both great complimentary partners (Coburn could he fine on his own but Carle really thrived with Pronger). The bottom pair was a mess and not really notable.

The goalies were signed except Leighton who was picked up on waivers. Don't need to discuss that anymore.

Holmgren was great at acquiring talent and then seemed to rest on his laurels after the cup run cause the Flyers stopped trying to acquire top talent. Lots of over the hill signings on D, coupled with the loss of Pronger. Then culture reared it's ugly head when Carter and Richards were traded. The returns were great and could of set up another run, but the D and goalie situation could never be figured out. Then the prospect pool was barren from the years of acquiring top talent, and then mediocre talent (1st for Eminger, 2nd for Meszaros, 2nd and 4th for Kubina). And then some misses with drafting and undrafted FA (Marshall and Klotz in 07, Goulbourne in 13, Brandon Manning undrafted FA). Hextall did great to clean up the cap and load up on picks, but also acquired horrid players. He also had notable picks miss.

So TL'DR the Flyers built a cup team by acquiring top talent, and then began to mire in mediocrity when they stopped acquiring top talent (hello Risto). And now they are stuck in a culture war where they will continue to eschew skilled players for mediocre try hards. Thus continuing their mediocrity.

 

[mr figgles]

Holmgren never stopped trying to acquire talent. He tried to bankrupt the predators with the Weber offersheet to acquire him. It‘s just when teams have #1 dmen, they tend not to let them go, so you‘re stuck with overpaying for middling players or getting reclamation projects like Meszaros.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Caveat: I strongly disagree with any one team ever being a blueprint because they happen to make a deep run or two.

If the Panthers are going to be the trendy blueprint, why isn’t the takeaway how much easier it is to rebuild your D corps on the cheap than the Forwards?

 

[renberg]

And now they are stuck in a culture war where they will continue to eschew skilled players for mediocre try hards. Thus continuing their mediocrity.

A team often mirrors the personality of their coach. "Mediocre try hards" is the mantra of Tortorella. Given talented players, he will bang them down into something less than that. Then when he gets one of these "mediocre try hards" to over achieve for a bit of time, he points to that as evidence of his success. Quickly, as in the case of an Atkinson type player, the shine fades and what is left is not too appealing.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

A team often mirrors the personality of their coach. "Mediocre try hards" is the mantra of Tortorella. Given talented players, he will bang them down into something less than that. Then when he gets one of these "mediocre try hards" to over achieve for a bit of time, he points to that as evidence of his success. Quickly, as in the case of an Atkinson type player, the shine fades and what is left is not too appealing.

To be fair they've been trying hard since Hakstol.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

They became powerhouses because they got talent from being shit, but then also made good moves after that. They didn't just get lucky.

Yeah that's why I'm saying it is a chicken or the egg situation. They were shit for long periods (or at the right time) and then built on that. These teams weren't just all the sudden good because of good management, these teams got good by sucking and lucking into good players and then making good moves.

 

[Curufinwe]

Hak getting fired has been the highlight of the NHL offseason so far.

 

[TheKingPin]

Most likely, but that's where the luck and timing come in to play. Bad bounces or good bounces, injuries, trades, signings, lightning in a bottle, etc. is as big a factor as good or bad management/coaching/on-ice play.

Very rarely are the Cup Finals the teams we think they'll be at the start of the year. For instance nhl.com no one had Florida and only 3 people had Edm in the finals. The 4th Period was about the same. I'm sure if you look deeper you'll see that's how it is year in and year out.

They probably don’t know much then. The Panthers are back into the finals after going last year as well. That doesn’t happen with lucky bounces. Everyone gets lucky and unlucky bounces evenly over time.

I do think it’s fine to think about building a conference final team as opposed to a cup team. But if you are unable to get past the conf finals or win a cup you obviously aren’t done yet.

 

[Doodootheclown]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1801253479488307524

Couturier says he had sports hernia/lower abdominal surgery this offseason

 

[Random Forest]

Every management team lives long enough to see itself get called terrible and incompetent. Then they get fired.

There are no blueprints. You don’t even really get to choose what kind of Good Team you’ll be. Colorado has their identity now, but instead of MacKinnon and Makar, it could have just as easily been Barkov and Heiskanen by absolutely no deliberate intention of their management. Still great. And it could have easily been Seth Jones And Nolan Patrick, too. Not so great.

It’s easy to consider the winners geniuses for how they Built Their Team, but we’re usually backfilling a lot of the intentionality and deliberation behind it. To the extent there’s a blueprint, Vegas is probably the closest to one that can be duplicated, which is to just shrewdly pursue talent wherever it’s available. And on that score, Holmgren was probably the closest we had.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1801253479488307524

Couturier says he had sports hernia/lower abdominal surgery this offseason

Nice I'll be listening later to this.

 

[Curufinwe]

Well that would explain why he fell off so much in mid January.

Couturier comes on at 24:00 on the youtube video

 

[pooch]

In a supposed rebuilding year, why not shut him down and get the surgery immediately? Everyone knows the recovery time for this is a long time. I don't get it.

 

[Danko]

In a supposed rebuilding year, why not shut him down and get the surgery immediately? Everyone knows the recovery time for this is a long time. I don't get it.

They wanted to make the playoffs

 

[Curufinwe]

I don't think Couturier would have agreed to end his comeback season early.

 

[pooch]

They wanted to make the playoffs

More shortsighted nonsense.

 

[TheKingPin]

Way to go Torts! Scratch your captain disgracefully like you did when he should have gotten an injury designation.

 

[ponder719]

In a supposed rebuilding year, why not shut him down and get the surgery immediately? Everyone knows the recovery time for this is a long time. I don't get it.

This franchise considers "rub some dirt on it and get back out there" to be dangerously forward-thinking medical advice. We're lucky they didn't apply leeches.

 

[iceman42]

Caveat: I strongly disagree with any one team ever being a blueprint because they happen to make a deep run or two.

If the Panthers are going to be the trendy blueprint, why isn’t the takeaway how much easier it is to rebuild your D corps on the cheap than the Forwards?

Its the flavor of the season.
Remember when St. Louis was the blueprint during their run? Then this team and that team where the blueprint during their respective runs.

 

[Cody Webster]

In a supposed rebuilding year, why not shut him down and get the surgery immediately? Everyone knows the recovery time for this is a long time. I don't get it.

Just more proof that the rebuild was never real

 

[orangey]

Holmgren still built around a good home grown core featuring two very good centers. Yeah they added things to it that they had trouble producing themselves but that team doesn't happen without those key draft picks. Building down the middle is a valid and common way to build a team (remember Gagne was drafted as a center too). Drafting stud defensemen helps too ofc, if your org is up to that. In this example they had to go externally for that but that is the exception.

I don't think we need to make this more complex than it really is though. The best teams by and large draft key contributors at C and D and build around that nucleolus however they can. Other than LV which recent cup teams have not done that? I struggle to find any examples. Sure you can miss on picks and mess it up but the; be bad, draft and reach critical mass, which you build around blueprint is very well established and can work if you don't blank on your top picks.

Furthermore that it can also not work doesn't mean you shouldn't still follow that approach. You are still left in the same situation where you need to hit on key picks to build it up so you do the same thing until you're team is simply too talented to suck anymore.

Combine that with a relatively young coach who can patiently teach fundamentals to young players without constantly losing his shit (and the team) and you are in business. You need the courage and leadership from the GM on down though so that everyone understands that this is the strategy, understands it is temporary to achieve a goal and communicates that to the fans. Which also isn't hard and basically every other franchise seems to have no problem doing this when it is time to rebuild.