Online Series: - The Wheel of Time (Prime Video, Nov 22) | Page 17 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Online Series: The Wheel of Time (Prime Video, Nov 22)

The Wheel of Time has already introduced another Forsaken (but hidden them in plain sight)

Apparently showrunner Rafe Judkins has hinted that one of the forsaken not yet seen was "hidden" in s3.

My guess is....
Semirhage or Grendael are taking over Messaana's book role in the White Tower. And they've rolled Alvarian into Danielle. So basically Semirhage or Grendael is Alvarian, who appeared a couple of times in S3.
You mean Alviarin?

 
  • Like
Reactions: Holden Caulfield
You mean Alviarin?

Yup. I'm terrible with remembering spellings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jussi
The longer this goes without a renewal the worse I'm feeling about it. Hopefully this is just them thinking about renewing if for multiple seasons, cause even when it had a pre-airing renewal it took them 2 years to get each season out. It's killing the momentum. If they authorize this for a 2-3 year renewal maybe they can start getting the seasons out in a more timely manner. But it's more likely that this isn't the smash hit they'd hoped for, just a moderate hit (all reports are that the financials are solid if unspectacular on it) that they'll decide to move on from it. We'll see I guess.
 
The longer this goes without a renewal the worse I'm feeling about it. Hopefully this is just them thinking about renewing if for multiple seasons, cause even when it had a pre-airing renewal it took them 2 years to get each season out. It's killing the momentum. If they authorize this for a 2-3 year renewal maybe they can start getting the seasons out in a more timely manner. But it's more likely that this isn't the smash hit they'd hoped for, just a moderate hit (all reports are that the financials are solid if unspectacular on it) that they'll decide to move on from it. We'll see I guess.
I can see them waiting on data. It's been less than a week since the finale.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Holden Caulfield
The longer this goes without a renewal the worse I'm feeling about it. Hopefully this is just them thinking about renewing if for multiple seasons, cause even when it had a pre-airing renewal it took them 2 years to get each season out. It's killing the momentum. If they authorize this for a 2-3 year renewal maybe they can start getting the seasons out in a more timely manner. But it's more likely that this isn't the smash hit they'd hoped for, just a moderate hit (all reports are that the financials are solid if unspectacular on it) that they'll decide to move on from it. We'll see I guess.
It's apparently some kind of contract dispute between Amazon and Sony.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: Jussi
These days, it's a problem if it takes until the third season to find your legs. You need to hook viewers with the first season or they won't come back, even if the show improves. There's too much other content out there. I'm one of those who didn't return for the second season, though I considered watching it and the third at some point. I probably won't now, since there won't be a conclusion.

Even though the show largely doomed itself with its first season, it's unfortunate that a worse (and more expensive) show, The Rings of Power, is still going and probably going to get a full 5 seasons. Quality seems less important than IP popularity.
 
These days, it's a problem if it takes until the third season to find your legs. You need to hook viewers with the first season or they won't come back, even if the show improves. There's too much other content out there. I'm one of those who didn't return for the second season, though I considered watching it and the third at some point. I probably won't now, since there won't be a conclusion.

Even though the show largely doomed itself with its first season, it's unfortunate that a worse (and more expensive) show, The Rings of Power, is still going and probably going to get a full 5 seasons. Quality seems less important than IP popularity.
This isn't really that accurate. While every episode hasn't done as well as the shows premier episode, it was consistently in the Nielsen top 10 through its whole run and had comparable viewers to "massive successes" like Severance and Shogun. Season 2 and season 3 of WoT were reported to have higher viewership in total than season 1.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Holden Caulfield
This isn't really that accurate. While every episode hasn't done as well as the shows premier episode, it was consistently in the Nielsen top 10 through its whole run and had comparable viewers to "massive successes" like Severance and Shogun. Season 2 and season 3 of WoT were reported to have higher viewership in total than season 1.
There are multiple points of failure for WoT.

1. Amazon definitely did not market this properly.

2. They added plot lines that were unnecessary to drive the actual plot.

3. The finale's of seasons 1/2 were some of the weaker episodes. They didn't hit the emotional beats they needed to. They were working so hard to make this an ensemble show from the start, they failed to realize that the story does have a central focus, and failed at that. There were ways to make an ensemble story early, without weakening the actual central focus, but they didn't go that route.

4. The show continually made choices that were "less emotional" than the book. Either the writers didn't understand human emotions, or they figured they'd written themselves into a box previously and couldn't write themselves out of it.

5. They hired a huge star to play a role, and then couldn't let the story pivot away from her when necessary. Please see point 2.

6. They tried to make the show a political drama before it really needed to be. And by doing so, got some initial shock ratings because it was well written (episode 6 was really well done overall for non book readers) but it wrote them into a box because it was interesting thing, but it was also something that really really needed to be toned down.

7. The writers really really didn't understand the story.

8. The delays between seasons (you can blame covid but that doesn't explain the gap between s2-3)

9. This isn't specifically a wheel of time issue, but they did not have enough time to really tell the story. Wheel of Time is constantly critiqued as a story for its length. That length also drives in my opinion the best character building/arcs/world building in fantasy. Rand's story makes me bawl every time I read it.
Mat has one of the weakest endings, and even he has some amazing moments. I dont think you can tell this story properly in 8 hours of TV. But shows don't get 20 episodes a season anymore. But thats what it would've taken to do this properly with those side tracks they took. Moiraine's choices in book 5...

10. They had a huge built in market of this show. AND NEVER USED IT. There were zero merchandising things. No Great Serpent rings. No Aiel Halloween costumes. No Asherandi. No Horns. Please see point 1.
Easier to forgive a big budget show, if you're selling merch.

11. The actual combat in the show was really poorly choreographed with a singular exception. The cold open of episode 7 showed exactly what the combat should look like. And they never did it again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheGreatPandasage
This isn't really that accurate. While every episode hasn't done as well as the shows premier episode, it was consistently in the Nielsen top 10 through its whole run and had comparable viewers to "massive successes" like Severance and Shogun. Season 2 and season 3 of WoT were reported to have higher viewership in total than season 1.
The article says that it dropped out of the Nielsen top 10 after the third episode of Season 3, and the U.S. viewership numbers that I've seen have Season 2 and 3 lower than Season 1, though not by much after the premiere week.

Severance and Shogun were massive successes not for their viewership, but for their immediate acclaim, strong word of mouth and ridiculous numbers of Emmy nominations (and wins), all of which WoT didn't have. It seemed like no one was talking about WoT, which isn't good for a high-budget show because good buzz is what tends to lead to new subscribers. If you look at Game of Thrones (which Amazon likely hoped that WoT would emulate), its viewership increased from 2.5M in Season 1 to 12M in Season 8, likely almost all new subscribers. WoT's viewership holding relatively steady for most of its run suggests to me that it wasn't bringing in new subscribers, which could be largely why Amazon cancelled it.
 
Last edited:
The article says that it dropped out of the Nielsen top 10 after the third episode of Season 3, and the U.S. viewership numbers that I've seen have Season 2 and 3 lower than Season 1, though not by much after the premiere week.

Severance and Shogun were massive successes not for their viewership, but for their word of mouth and ridiculous numbers of Emmy nominations (and wins), both of which WoT didn't have. It seemed like no one was talking about WoT, which isn't good for a high-budget show because word of mouth and award buzz tends to lead to new subscribers. If you look at Game of Thrones (which Amazon likely hoped that WoT would become like), its viewership increased from 2.5M in Season 1 to 12M in Season 8, likely almost all new subscribers. WoT's viewership holding relatively steady for most of its run suggests to me that current subscribers were still watching, but new ones weren't being added, which could be largely why Amazon cancelled it.
The problem is that the original audience is the Wheel of Time fans, and fans of fantasy in general.
The weakest season was season 1. And it deviated so far from the books it was hard for fans to recommend.
The people most excited about the show were non book readers. Which is usually the inverse of a season 1 of a show like this.

Wheel of Time to me, should be marketed as the middle ground fantasy between game of thrones, and Lord of the Rings. Wheel of Time has main characters who are dark/suicidal but always "good". Theres politics, but you don't introduce it in season 1 the way they did, you hint at it, you talk about how the game of houses is cuthroat, but that people say Aes Sedai invented it twisting the truth to lie.

I consider myself a fairly large Wheel of Time fan, but alot of people I know considered it so far from the books that it wasn't the thing they loved anymore by season 2. That ending of season 2 especially. You took things rand did in the books, and weakened them so hard to "raise up others" but it really hurt his story, and he's on everyone's top 3 characters.
 
I just started this last night but didn't finish episode 1 because I was getting tired so this is clearly my fault lol Won't be bothering to watch any more.
 
Last edited:
There are multiple points of failure for WoT.

1. Amazon definitely did not market this properly.

2. They added plot lines that were unnecessary to drive the actual plot.

3. The finale's of seasons 1/2 were some of the weaker episodes. They didn't hit the emotional beats they needed to. They were working so hard to make this an ensemble show from the start, they failed to realize that the story does have a central focus, and failed at that. There were ways to make an ensemble story early, without weakening the actual central focus, but they didn't go that route.

4. The show continually made choices that were "less emotional" than the book. Either the writers didn't understand human emotions, or they figured they'd written themselves into a box previously and couldn't write themselves out of it.

5. They hired a huge star to play a role, and then couldn't let the story pivot away from her when necessary. Please see point 2.

6. They tried to make the show a political drama before it really needed to be. And by doing so, got some initial shock ratings because it was well written (episode 6 was really well done overall for non book readers) but it wrote them into a box because it was interesting thing, but it was also something that really really needed to be toned down.

7. The writers really really didn't understand the story.

8. The delays between seasons (you can blame covid but that doesn't explain the gap between s2-3)

9. This isn't specifically a wheel of time issue, but they did not have enough time to really tell the story. Wheel of Time is constantly critiqued as a story for its length. That length also drives in my opinion the best character building/arcs/world building in fantasy. Rand's story makes me bawl every time I read it.
Mat has one of the weakest endings, and even he has some amazing moments. I dont think you can tell this story properly in 8 hours of TV. But shows don't get 20 episodes a season anymore. But thats what it would've taken to do this properly with those side tracks they took. Moiraine's choices in book 5...

10. They had a huge built in market of this show. AND NEVER USED IT. There were zero merchandising things. No Great Serpent rings. No Aiel Halloween costumes. No Asherandi. No Horns. Please see point 1.
Easier to forgive a big budget show, if you're selling merch.

11. The actual combat in the show was really poorly choreographed with a singular exception. The cold open of episode 7 showed exactly what the combat should look like. And they never did it again.
Season 3 seemed to really win even the book readers over, especially episode 4. The book reader reactors on Youtube were loving it. Really bummed out about this, so much better show for a non-book readers than Rings Of Power. I wonder is there any chance Netflix, Disney+ or any other streaming service might pick this up? Apple doesn't seem to mind throwing money around.
 
Season 3 seemed to really win even the book readers over, especially episode 4. The book reader reactors on Youtube were loving it. Really bummed out about this, so much better show for a non-book readers than Rings Of Power. I wonder is there any chance Netflix, Disney+ or any other streaming service might pick this up? Apple doesn't seem to mind throwing money around.
It will depend on who holds the rights. Alot of us book readers think that iWot now holds the rights again, and is likely the reason for the cancellation in the first place.
The owners of iWot are reviled by book fans. They are greedy f's who probably wanted more money for more seasons, and amazon balked.

Season 3 episode 4 I gave an 8.5. I had two major problems with it.
1. it wasn't set up as well as it should've been. In the books alot of that information is seeded/hinted at as early as book 1.
2. They didn't quite go as deep as they could've. And were a little "blunt". Mostly because the information hadn't been seeded early.
 
It could have been better yes, but overall the whose sequence with Ailel was done good.
Non readers in the end clearly understood that Aiel were oathbreakers whose only hope for redemption is following the Dragon no matter what the cost. . Clan chiefs and wise ones where heavily burdened by the truth only they knew and just like in the books in TV series there is a visible relief that Cara'carn came, proclaimed himself and exposed the bare truth to the Aiel. I'm really satisfied with that in TV series,
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jussi
They cancel WoT to continue with the travesty called Rings Of Power?
Good old Amazon.
Let's hope someone better picks up the series like it happened to Expanse.
Rings of Power is contractually obligated to go 5 seasons. That was part of the rights negotiation. Amazon has zero choice. The Tolkien estate did the smart play there.
 
Rings of Power is contractually obligated to go 5 seasons. That was part of the rights negotiation. Amazon has zero choice. The Tolkien estate did the smart play there.
I'm sure that Amazon could cancel the show if they wanted. They just won't get back any of the $250M that they paid for the rights.
 
I'm sure that Amazon could cancel the show if they wanted. They just won't get back any of the $250M that they paid for the rights.
I’d be very surprised if the commitment for 5 seasons didn’t have a massive cancellation penalty.

“Cancel before 5 seasons pay an additional 500m”
 
I’d be very surprised if the commitment for 5 seasons didn’t have a massive cancellation penalty.

“Cancel before 5 seasons pay an additional 500m”
I'd be surprised if the family made it difficult to cancel a show that taints their IP and family legacy. If it deserves to be cancelled, they should want it to be. After all, the sooner that it ends and the less damage that it does to the IP, the sooner that they can turn around and sell the rights to someone else for another big payday.
 
Last edited:
It will depend on who holds the rights. Alot of us book readers think that iWot now holds the rights again, and is likely the reason for the cancellation in the first place.
The owners of iWot are reviled by book fans. They are greedy f's who probably wanted more money for more seasons, and amazon balked.

Season 3 episode 4 I gave an 8.5. I had two major problems with it.
1. it wasn't set up as well as it should've been. In the books alot of that information is seeded/hinted at as early as book 1.
2. They didn't quite go as deep as they could've. And were a little "blunt". Mostly because the information hadn't been seeded early.
Apaprently Sony holds the rights for book events for tv while iWot for anything outside of that. Via Reddit:
It's a "Split the difference" circumstance.

Sony has the TV rights to the events of the books.

Red Eagle / iwot has the TV rights to independent creations in the setting outside the scope of the events in the books.

Which is why they can get away with setting new stories in the universe.



 

Users who are viewing this thread

Ad

Ad