The Vancouver Canucks' Right Defence Conundrum

[Ruthervin]

The Vancouver Canucks' Right Defense Conundrum:

Looking at this current Canucks' line-up, a strong argument can be made that IF we could *magically* acquire a top 4 defensive-minded RD that could play with Quinn Hughes, we'd join the elite ranks. I mean, what wouldn't be to like? We'd be one of deepest teams down the middle along with one of the best goalies in the league. We'd have a strong bottom 6, along with pretty decent wingers, along with a good 2nd and 3rd defensive pairing. OEL and Myers would be placed in an ideal 2nd pairing while any combination of Rathbone, Dermott, Schenn, and Poolman would likely make for a decent 3rd pairing. Allow me to show you Exhibit A:

Podkolzin-Miller-Boeser
Kuzemko-Pettersson-Mikheyev
Pearson-Horvat-Garland
Dickinson-Lazar-Hoglander

Joshua (he will always be 'Jackson' to me ;-) @boligno

Hughes-#####
OEL-Myers
Rathbone-Dermott / Rathbone-Schenn / Dermott-Schenn

[Rathbone-Dermott-Schenn]

Demko
Martin

For better or for worse, Management wants this team to be in win-now mode.

• Pettersson will be an RFA in two seasons and may or may not want to be here long term
• We still don't know the status of Horvat's long term commitment
• Boeser is here for 3 years
• Hughes is here for 5 years
• OEL is here for 5 years
• Demko is here for 4 years
• Podkolzin is an RFA in 2 years and is a cost controlled asset right now
• Hoglander is an RFA/Controlled asset in 1 year

Based on the above, it's almost a completely obvious choice as to why Rutherford-Alvin chose to sign Miller long term while potentially creating future cap complications............but that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to

1. Point out that the Canucks are definitely in 'win now' mode for the next 4 years (I say 4 because this is when Demko will become a UFA, combined with what could likely be the start of Miller and OEL declining)
2. If we are going to maximize these next 4 years, then we need to *immediately* address our Top pairing RD situation.

Now, this is where the Right Defense 'conundrum' lies:

1. Acquiring and/or signing defensive-minded Right Defensemen in this league come at a premium cost. Just look at Columbus and what they paid for Gudbranson. Look at the Canucks and what we just went through with JT Miller. Any fantasies that we may have had about Noah Dobson, Braden Schneider, or Dante Fabbro went completely out the window.
2. Teams trending upwards and/or are looking to build on their performance from last season will not give away a premium asset (RD) unless the cost is high. I've heard names such as Columbus' Andrew Peeke or Seattle's Adam Larsson, but these guys aren't going to be given away for cheap. Ryan Pulock is another guy that I've heard. The bottom line is this - since RD signing and/or acquiring RD's come at a premium cost, other teams are going to want premium assets in return. So in the Canucks' case, the conversation would *start* with Horvat or Garland++. Guys like Artem Zub, Matt Roy, etc. are in the same boat because teams like LA and Ottawa will be looking to push forward this season (LA has already pushed forward). Ditto for New Jersey. They are going to do whatever they can to make the playoffs this season and they probably won't move someone like Damon Severson until the trade deadline for a HUGE price (if they aren't competitive) So some of you reading this thread might ask, "well ok, what would Hoglander or Boeser fetch you?" My response? A hug. That is what they'll fetch you. Boeser's value is low right so he's not going to fetch you a top 4 RD. Hoglander, a bottom 6 winger as of right now, won't be fetching you that piece either.
3. Robbing Peter to pay Paul: Upon the Miller signing, I've heard some people mention that we should trade Horvat for a top 4 RD, but would that make us any better or would that just make us.............different? (i.e. robbing Peter to pay Paul). In the modern NHL, you need a 3rd line C and a 3rd line in general that can both shut down while being able to produce consistent offence. We saw what our team looked like when we had Sutter and Gaudette as our C's a few years back. Do we really want to go back to that? With someone like Jacob Chychrun, the conversation would *start* with Podkolzin (robbing Peter to pay Paul).

The Author's previous and possibly current solution:

The guy that I wanted to target was Connor Murphy from Chicago despite his recent concussion history and his cap hit and term (4.4 million dollar cap hit for the next 4 years). Why him? Because......

• He's an RD that has lots of experience playing on the top pairing in a shut down role.
• He's big, physical, and is a leader
• He's 29 and his contract will take him until he's 33 (likely won't sharply decline during his contractual years)
• Because of his recent concussion history, acquiring him likely wouldn't cost an arm and a leg (as it would for someone like Dobson, Schneider, etc.), nor would we likely have to move one of our important forwards (Horvat, Garland++) to acquire Murphy (as we would for guys like such Andrew Peeke, Ryan Pulock, Matt Roy, Artem Zub, etc.).
• Unlike teams such as Ottawa, Seattle, New Jersey, etc. that will be trying to move forward from last season, Chicago looks like they'll be entering a rebuild.........meaning that they'd likely be more willing to move one of their RD's.

So yes, taking all this into account, Connor Murphy is a guy that I'd be interested in targeting with caution. I think a guy like Murphy could be had with a package of Poolman, Dickinson, and a decent prospect (Rathbone?) but I'm not entirely sure. Again, I re-iterate, there are MUCH better defensemen and defensive options out there than Murphy, but the acquisition cost would be much higher as well (i.e. robbing Peter to pay Paul).

Another guy that comes to my mind is Montreal's David Savard. Like Murphy, I wouldn't expect Savard's acquisition cost to be astronomically high (i.e. Poolman, Dickinson, plus a good prospect in Rathbone?). My only caveat with Savard is that I'm not sure if he's had much experience on a top pairing (other than this past season in Montreal). In Tampa Bay for example, he was on their 2nd or 3rd pairing if I understand correctly. Cernak and Hedman were the guys taking on tough match-ups.

So there you go - if you're asking me point blank as to which defensemen I'd target for this up-coming season, my response would be either Connor Murphy or David Savard. They are both stay-at-home rugged Right handed defensemen, and I don't think acquiring them would cost us someone like Garland++, Horvat, or a 1st round pick.

Podkolzin-Miller-Boeser
Kuzemko-Pettersson-Mikheyev
Pearson-Horvat-Garland
Hoglander-Lazar-Joshua

Lockwood

Hughes-[Murphy or Savard]
OEL-Myers
Dermott-Schenn

Juulsen

Demko
Martin

Which defenseman/defensemen would you target? Why? What cost?

p.s.__________________(after Credits movie scene): ::::Alvin speaking on the phone to someone........that someone turns out to be Nikita Tryamkin!:::::

Click to read more...

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

My thoughts.

You really need to hope you draft or sign a college RD who sees unprecedented rapid development in the next 2 seasons. Could be anyone we have drafted as well.

 

[Vector]

Murphy is a negative value player until he’s well clear of his concussion issues. I’m sure Blackhawks would happily give him away just to clear salary and cap space for their rebuild.

 

[Ruthervin]

Murphy is a negative value player until he’s well clear of his concussion issues. I’m sure Blackhawks would happily give him away just to clear salary and cap space for their rebuild.

Might be better to target David Savard then (although again, it would depend on the acquisition cost).

 

[Vector]

Might be better to target David Savard then (although again, it would depend on the acquisition cost).

The problem with Savard is that he’s terrible now. Really lost a step two seasons ago and has only got worse.

I’m slowly putting together a pretty comprehensive list of potential targets. I think I can carve out some time tonight for it.

 

[Ruthervin]

The problem with Savard is that he’s terrible now. Really lost a step two seasons ago and has only got worse.

I’m slowly putting together a pretty comprehensive list of potential targets. I think I can carve out some time tonight for it.

Thank you Vector, that would be much appreciated.

I think the biggest thing that I'm focusing on, is trying to find a right-sided "defensive defenseman" that can play on a top pairing but wouldn't be relatively difficult to acquire.....which is the conundrum that I speak of given how expensive these types of defensemen are. Like Artem Zub or Andrew Peeke for instance - you're looking at Garland++ if you're lucky (which then basically takes away from our potent forward group that Alvin has created this summer).

Definitely looking forward to your list though so all of us can look at more options.

My thoughts.

You really need to hope you draft or sign a college RD who sees unprecedented rapid development in the next 2 seasons. Could be anyone we have drafted as well.

Bring back Tryamkin?! :-p

 

[Peter Griffin]

Gross. This management group needs to bite the bullet and pony up for an actual top 4 defenseman if they want to make any sort of run in the next 4 years. This whole teetering on building for the future and trying to compete now isn’t going to accomplish anything. Pick one and fully commit.

 

[wonton15]

My thoughts.

You really need to hope you draft or sign a college RD who sees unprecedented rapid development in the next 2 seasons. Could be anyone we have drafted as well.

That’s literally putting our cup hopes on a
lottery ticket we don’t even have right now. We can’t do that with this newly pried open window. It’s looking more like us trading those picks instead.

 

[CalderSchmalder]

On Capfriendly it says we have 14.6 mil in projected cap space next summer, could Severson as a UFA be a potential target?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

how washed is pk subban?

honest question, i have no idea

or can chara still play at all?

i doubt either guy would want to sign here, for travel and tax reasons. but if either have anything left and would play for kessel money + performance bonuses, i wouldn’t not ask.

 

[Vector]

how washed is pk subban?

honest question, i have no idea

or can chara still play at all?

i doubt either guy would want to sign here, for travel and tax reasons. but if either have anything left and would play for kessel money + performance bonuses, i wouldn’t not ask.

Chara is incredibly washed. Was barely a bottom-pairing guy on the Islanders last year. We already have a guy like that in Schenn and he’s much much better. Hell, Schenn is better than most old slow options.

Dhaliwal is reporting that the Canucks have had zero contact with Subban and doesn’t think that will change.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Don't pull a Gillis and outsmart yourself.

Trade a combo of Lekermak, and our 1sts for a real surefire player.

 

[FlowMaster]

Move Hughes to the right side.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Move Hughes to the right side.

actually this is probably the best idea

 

[kcunac]

I would have liked to see Garland dumped for a pick and then used that pick + Rathbone for Marino. Or something around Garland for Matt Roy. But now that line-ups are more or less set, looks difficult.

 

[AppleHoneySauce]

Gross. This management group needs to bite the bullet and pony up for an actual top 4 defenseman if they want to make any sort of run in the next 4 years. This whole teetering on building for the future and trying to compete now isn’t going to accomplish anything. Pick one and fully commit.

This. It would be nice to pull a tampa and have a super long window but at this point we are locked into it. Go all out hoglander, lek, rathbone, and all future firsts should be available. Even podkolzin should be available.

This is where the new proscouting has to make its money. They cant be afraid to make unpopular moves to increase our short term chances.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The wheels could fall off Luke Schenn at any minute (he has been a fantastic surprise though)..

Poolman can cover top 4 minutes in a pinch, but asking him to consistently play that role is asking him to play over his head....We dont even know if he'll play this season.

Myers thrives on lots of minutes, but he isn't the long term answer/fit...This season, they need to add another player to take some of the load off of Myers .

I'm curious to see if management swings the fences for a younger long term guy, or go for a band aid solution..?

 

[rypper]

On Capfriendly it says we have 14.6 mil in projected cap space next summer, could Severson as a UFA be a potential target?

I guess it depends on what he's looking for because that 14.6m is going to go quick.

I'm gonna just throw out some of my own predictions.

Horvat - 6.25m
Kuzmenko - 4-5m (if he pans out)
Dermott - 2m
Hoglander - 1.5m

That pretty much eats up the cap without adding anything.

 

[logan5]

The Vancouver Canucks' Right Defense Conundrum:

Looking at this current Canucks' line-up, a strong argument can be made that IF we could *magically* acquire a top 4 defensive-minded RD that could play with Quinn Hughes, we'd join the elite ranks. I mean, what wouldn't be to like? We'd be one of deepest teams down the middle along with one of the best goalies in the league. We'd have a strong bottom 6, along with pretty decent wingers, along with a good 2nd and 3rd defensive pairing. OEL and Myers would be placed in an ideal 2nd pairing while any combination of Rathbone, Dermott, Schenn, and Poolman would likely make for a decent 3rd pairing. Allow me to show you Exhibit A:

Podkolzin-Miller-Boeser
Kuzemko-Pettersson-Mikheyev
Pearson-Horvat-Garland
Dickinson-Lazar-Hoglander

Joshua (he will always be 'Jackson' to me ;-) @boligno

Hughes-#####
OEL-Myers
Rathbone-Dermott / Rathbone-Schenn / Dermott-Schenn

[Rathbone-Dermott-Schenn]

Demko
Martin

For better or for worse, Management wants this team to be in win-now mode.

• Pettersson will be an RFA in two seasons and may or may not want to be here long term
• We still don't know the status of Horvat's long term commitment
• Boeser is here for 3 years
• Hughes is here for 5 years
• OEL is here for 5 years
• Demko is here for 4 years
• Podkolzin is an RFA in 2 years and is a cost controlled asset right now
• Hoglander is an RFA/Controlled asset in 1 year

Based on the above, it's almost a completely obvious choice as to why Rutherford-Alvin chose to sign Miller long term while potentially creating future cap complications............but that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to

1. Point out that the Canucks are definitely in 'win now' mode for the next 4 years (I say 4 because this is when Demko will become a UFA, combined with what could likely be the start of Miller and OEL declining)
2. If we are going to maximize these next 4 years, then we need to *immediately* address our Top pairing RD situation.

The team might actually be in a stronger window of contention in 4 years. Pettersson will be 27, Hughes 26, Podkolzin 25, Demko 30, Horvat 31, Boeser 29, Lakkerimaki 22, Hoglander 25, and Miller 33 could still be a strong contributor. In that time we should be able to fill out a proper defence, and draft some more younger cheaper complimentary players. Even if Miller has declined, the younger guys will have taken over as being the dominant player on the team. I see another 4 year window after Miller turns 33.

 

[Fatass]

The wheels could fall off Luke Schenn at any minute (he has been a fantastic surprise though)..

Poolman can cover top 4 minutes in a pinch, but asking him to consistently play that role is asking him to play over his head....We dont even know if he'll play this season.

Myers thrives on lots of minutes, but he isn't the long term answer/fit...This season, they need to add another player to take some of the load off of Myers .

I'm curious to see if management swings the fences for a younger long term guy, or go for a band aid solution..?

WE have several very good options for third pair right D: Myers, Dermott, SChenn and Poolman are all excellent third pairing D. Myers could actually carry a third pairing and would be perfect in that role. But sadly Benning (the not so great GM) collected a group of bottom pair right side D and let our best right side D leave - Tanev. Thanks Jimbo.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

WE have several very good options for third pair right D: Myers, Dermott, SChenn and Poolman are all excellent third pairing D. Myers could actually carry a third pairing and would be perfect in that role. But sadly Benning (the not so great GM) collected a group of bottom pair right side D and let our best right side D leave - Tanev. Thanks Jimbo.

Agreed that Tanev right now is precisely the player we need (on a team friendly $4.5m)…..
We are currently flush with 3rd pairing D..none of them capable of consistently playing big minutes.

 

[FlowMaster]

I guess it depends on what he's looking for because that 14.6m is going to go quick.

I'm gonna just throw out some of my own predictions.

Horvat - 6.25m
Kuzmenko - 4-5m (if he pans out)
Dermott - 2m
Hoglander - 1.5m

That pretty much eats up the cap without adding anything.

Then trade Garland. Done.

 

[rypper]

Then trade Garland. Done.

Yeah hopefully the winger market has corrected itself by next off season.

 

[Ruthervin]

Gross. This management group needs to bite the bullet and pony up for an actual top 4 defenseman if they want to make any sort of run in the next 4 years. This whole teetering on building for the future and trying to compete now isn’t going to accomplish anything. Pick one and fully commit.

I see your point, trust me, but what would "ponying up" actually entail? What would that look like? For example:

-Guys like Dobson and Chychrun = the conversations *starts* with Podkolzin++
-Even with guys in the tier below them such as Zub, Fabbro, Peeke, etc., you're looking at Garland++ at minimum.
-You move Horvat? You've robbed Peter to pay Paul because guess what? You now have to put one of Lazar or Dickinson in that 3rd line C spot......which takes you back to the Sutter and Gaudette days where our 3rd line couldn't produce any offence. If Horvat isn't adequately replaced here, then goodbye offence from both Pearson and possibly Garland.

One deal that I thought of from a few days ago was Horvat + Myers to NYI for Gabriel-Pageau and Pulock (i.e. a slight downgrade at 3rd line C with the expectation that we'd be upgrading on Myers), but I doubt NYI goes for that........unless we add (to what the 'add' would be, I don't know).

 

[Ruthervin]

Yeah hopefully the winger market has corrected itself by next off season.

That, or Boeser redeems himself this coming season and becomes worthy of being moved for a top 4 RD again (although if Boeser becomes like "the Boeser of old," I'd probably rather move Garland than Boeser).