The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step
- Thread starter Milhouse40
- Start date
Jabba11
Hockey Lobby
There's like more than half of the season left lol
I think a lot can change and happen until the draft.
HabsCowboysOwn
Wak Prescott the 60M/yr scam artist, here we gooo!
Other side of the coin: If the Habs finish the season outside of the bottom 10 because the likes of Armia, Dvorak, Anderson, Gallagher and Evans get hot for a few weeks while the young players don't particularly shine (see tonight's game), it won't mean much.
3rd pairing is about what I expect out of Reinhacher at this point yeah. Carrier on the 2nd pairing is kinda weak no? Don't see him as a key piece of our future but maybe I'm underrating him. You think Zub is first pairing material? Haven't seen him play much, who would you compare him to?
Gravity
Generational Poster
Not if it's led by Armia, Evans & co. having career years....
Gravity
Generational Poster
That looks exceptionally weak on the right side.
The Great Weal
Phil's Pizza
- Jan 15, 2015
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I don't understand how needing someone to surpass Suzuki is seen as this team's biggest need by many here. It's interesting because despite Suzuki looking better last year, I don't often find the other teams 1C outplaying him. If anything, Suzuki is outplaying them more often than not. He's still clearly the best player on the team, and he had a decent stretch this season, where he was dominant and the best player on the ice. Not to mention, that the list of centers that are "easily better" than him keeps changing. Guys like Cozens/Lindholm/RNH/Zib were seen as better centers and it couldn't be further from the truth.
McDavid/Draisaitl/Mackinnon/Matthews/Point/Eichel/J.Hughes/Barkov are clearly ahead and you can add Bedard/Celebrini too since we're looking at the future (therefore no Crosby). You then got your Aho/Scheifele/Stutzle/Thomas/Thompson/Pettersson/Miller/Larkin/Hintz which is the category Suzuki belongs in. Even if you think Suzuki isn't in this 2nd tier, it's dishonest to claim that having your top C in this 2nd tier is fine as a cup contender if you're also saying that Suzuki isn't good enough as top C on a cup contender.
Overall, if you think Suzuki can't be a #1 C on a contender, then you'd probably have to look at rebuilding for many more years until you get lucky. Those 10 guys besides Point are all top 3 picks (and Barkov/Eichel easily go #1 in pretty much every other draft).
HabsCowboysOwn
Wak Prescott the 60M/yr scam artist, here we gooo!
I realize that having Suzuki at your 2C is a luxury most teams don't have, a 1A/1B combo perhaps would be a better way to describe what I had in mind. I'm greedy what can I say, you never have too many quality centers.
I don't think it's the team's biggest need though, not at all. Defense is worrying me way more. And I do think Suzuki can be a #1 center on a contender if we're stacked all around and have great depth. Still missing a top 6 C and a top 2 D to achieve that imo. Maybe we have the C in the system already, the D I don't see it for now.
The Great Weal
Phil's Pizza
- Jan 15, 2015
- 55,910
- 72,422
I won't argue that having Suzuki as your best player is fine as a cup contender since you'd need someone better, but banking on luck to get the #1C in the perfect year instead of improving the rest of the team isn't a sound strategy. I will also acknowledge that the 2C would have to be better than most other 2Cs in the league, in a similar mould to Hintz/Johnston like the Stars have.
nhlfan9191
Registered User
- Aug 4, 2010
- 20,121
- 18,456
I’ve always thought Suzuki was underrated. What he did as a 21 year old in that SCF run still has me convinced he can be a number one center on a contending team. Even if he isn’t a 100 point guy, he has the ability to give us the offence we need while being one of the better two way centers in the game. If we ended up finding an elite offensive center to add to Suzuki, we’d have the best 1-2 punch at center in the league in my opinion.
I mean that's a bit of a weird way to look at it. Other than those few guys, the Sharks have no one else. Why are you not counting Suzuki, Caufield, Guhle, Xhekaj, Dobes and Heineman? Are they all gonna disappear once we exit our rebuild? You’re also counting their potential 1st to the list but why not ours?
Sharks have another 4-5 years to their rebuild and 95% of the roster will be gone by the time their younsters mature. Toffoli is 32, Granlund 32 and Walman 28. Every other player on that team is straight garbage and currently serving as a place holder other than Zetterlund (he’s good). Where will the depth/supporting pieces come from?
In reality I would look at it like this :
- Suzuki
- Caufield
- Slafkovsky
- Demidov
- Hutson
- Guhle
- Reinbacher
- Our 1st
- CAL/FLA 1st
- Dach
- Newhook
- Xhekaj
- Heineman
- Fowler
- Dobes
VS
- Celebrini
- Smith
- Dickinson
- Top 4 pick this year probably (Schaefer, Hagens, Misa, Martone)
- Eklund
- Askarov
- Mukhamadullin
- Zetterlund
And we have 2 2nd, 3 3rd and 2 4th.
You need depth too, can’t just have high-end pieces and thats it. We also have a vast pool of prospects (+ all the picks this year), and players always bust here and there. San Jose doesn’t have nowhere near the prospects depth+draft capital that we have so what happens when 1 of their few pieces bust/gets injured/doesn’t live up to potential? They’re not insulated like we are. You also say Hutson might be though in the playoffs but what about Smith? His style of play is far from a playoff warrior. Forget about the playoffs, Hutson is playing 22 mins a night and thriving while Smith is struggling with the physicality/pace of the regular season.
You need actual good NHLer/veteran to help all your top shiny prospects otherwise look what happened in Buffalo/Ottawa.
We might also have the biggest war chest in the league in terms of picks/prospects to make a trade and acquire another NHL player to our lineup.
Different stages of the rebuild obviously but I just feel like the way you’re comparing us vs the Sharks is really selling us short.
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JianYang
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2017
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I agree that Suzuki rises on the big stage. I look at kadri's performance on the cup winning avs. He was absolutely vital to their success even though he wasn't their "best" center. I see Suzuki with the same impact on a cup winner with his own style.
The dream would be to add a rangy center that is on par or even better than Suzuki. That would be a real formidable task for any nhl team to deal with in the post season.
HabsWhiteKnightLOL
Registered User
The goal is for sure to get another Suzuki in a top 6. Suzuki is no MacKinnon but he plays well everywhere and he's pretty good on playoffs. He's a player when it counts. He's a silent leader , rarely make bad plays .
We really need to find another center to supply him. Dvorak and Evans shooting at like 30percent is not the solution. If with Laine and Demidov we can solidify a top 6, adding 1 center perhaps overpaying to get him could be the push we need offensively
JianYang
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2017
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Just to add to that, when I say rangy, I mean a specific kind of center that has a different dynamic than suzuki, because some matchups will require that ability to create your own real estate with size and reach. So I'm not looking to lock up cap resources on pettersson for example despite him having better numbers than nick in general. I want a guy who can excel in a certain style of game that may be more difficult for a guy like nick or Elias.
I've made this point before about building a team and I think it is valid for where this discussion is currently at.
Each position in the league can be grouped into 32's. For example if you were to rank NHL centremen in the NHL, the rankings would show 1-32 as #1 centres, 33-64 as #2 centres, 65-96 as #3 centres and 97-128 as your #4 centres.
Obviously rankings get extremely difficult, as you get further away from #1 (McDavid), and rankings can vary widely.
With this logic, some teams can have 2 x #1 centres, while others could have none. The same RWs, LWs, and Goalies. I would designate defencemen in their pairs...ie. top pair (1-64), middle pair (65-128) and bottom pair (129-192). Don't ask me why...it is my stupid logic.
In the interest of team building, a really interesting analysis would be to rank players in this linear way and then plug in cap hits, but I don't have time for that.
So let's look at what we are building......
For argument's sake let's say Suzuki is ranked somewhere between 16-24 in terms of centres in the league. It sucks that we don't have a top 10 centre, but that could be offset, if we somehow get another centre that would rank anywhere from 28-40. I was hoping Dach could be that....but alas he is not. We need to draft one or hope Hage develops into this. This is our biggest need right now.
What would be truly amazing to balance out the centre depth is if our #3, be it Dach drops down, or Evans or Beck ends up somewhere between 56th best centre and 70th best centre. It is theoretically possible to have two low end #1 centres and a low end #2 centre on your roster, playing 1-2-3. That kind of balance is phenomenal.....especially when you link those centres up with your wingers, who you hope you have 1 of the top 20 RW's in Laine and one of the top 20 LW's in Demidov moving forward. Slaf and Caufield could also be top 32 in their positions. That's the dream. 4 wingers who are all 1st line guys.
Sure---No superstars in the top 10 of their positions, but 6 guys all in the top 32 of their respective positions is deadly.
Add the surprise late bloomer like Heinemen. Could he become a top 64 player at his position. Lofty goals, but his speed and shot and the way he plays the game, makes it possible. Imagine having such depth that 2nd line guys are giving you a killer 3rd line.
This is the dream.
Moving to defencemen.... Is it possible that Lane becomes a top 10 defender in the league? Guhle and Reinbacher both top 64? That would give us 3 top pair defencemen. Who are we going to draft this year? Is Mailloux good enough to someday be in the 65-128 category? Would we have 3 top pair guys and one 2nd pair guy. If we land another top 4 and push Mailloux down, is he still good enough to be in the 2nd pair category, giving us a 2nd pair guy playing in the bottom pair.
Anyways, I think you guys get my point here. We are adding a ton of pieces that are all pushing eachother. We are building an all around dangerous team. I love what we are doing. This is the state of our rebuild. Still pushing. Still climbing.
Each position in the league can be grouped into 32's. For example if you were to rank NHL centremen in the NHL, the rankings would show 1-32 as #1 centres, 33-64 as #2 centres, 65-96 as #3 centres and 97-128 as your #4 centres.
Obviously rankings get extremely difficult, as you get further away from #1 (McDavid), and rankings can vary widely.
With this logic, some teams can have 2 x #1 centres, while others could have none. The same RWs, LWs, and Goalies. I would designate defencemen in their pairs...ie. top pair (1-64), middle pair (65-128) and bottom pair (129-192). Don't ask me why...it is my stupid logic.
In the interest of team building, a really interesting analysis would be to rank players in this linear way and then plug in cap hits, but I don't have time for that.
So let's look at what we are building......
For argument's sake let's say Suzuki is ranked somewhere between 16-24 in terms of centres in the league. It sucks that we don't have a top 10 centre, but that could be offset, if we somehow get another centre that would rank anywhere from 28-40. I was hoping Dach could be that....but alas he is not. We need to draft one or hope Hage develops into this. This is our biggest need right now.
What would be truly amazing to balance out the centre depth is if our #3, be it Dach drops down, or Evans or Beck ends up somewhere between 56th best centre and 70th best centre. It is theoretically possible to have two low end #1 centres and a low end #2 centre on your roster, playing 1-2-3. That kind of balance is phenomenal.....especially when you link those centres up with your wingers, who you hope you have 1 of the top 20 RW's in Laine and one of the top 20 LW's in Demidov moving forward. Slaf and Caufield could also be top 32 in their positions. That's the dream. 4 wingers who are all 1st line guys.
Sure---No superstars in the top 10 of their positions, but 6 guys all in the top 32 of their respective positions is deadly.
Add the surprise late bloomer like Heinemen. Could he become a top 64 player at his position. Lofty goals, but his speed and shot and the way he plays the game, makes it possible. Imagine having such depth that 2nd line guys are giving you a killer 3rd line.
This is the dream.
Moving to defencemen.... Is it possible that Lane becomes a top 10 defender in the league? Guhle and Reinbacher both top 64? That would give us 3 top pair defencemen. Who are we going to draft this year? Is Mailloux good enough to someday be in the 65-128 category? Would we have 3 top pair guys and one 2nd pair guy. If we land another top 4 and push Mailloux down, is he still good enough to be in the 2nd pair category, giving us a 2nd pair guy playing in the bottom pair.
Anyways, I think you guys get my point here. We are adding a ton of pieces that are all pushing eachother. We are building an all around dangerous team. I love what we are doing. This is the state of our rebuild. Still pushing. Still climbing.
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Benstheman
Registered User
- Nov 20, 2014
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Yeah. Even though I agree 100% with you, I think the Habs are actually where they should be right now. I’m not saying they can’t come back to sucking hard but this team is better than a bottom 5.
Benstheman
Registered User
- Nov 20, 2014
- 7,473
- 3,777
Yeah I think on offense, we have the pieces to make it happens. Yes we would ideally need another Suzuki level center on the 2nd line but you know what, I think Demidov will be that guy but from the wing. I also have a lot of confidence in Hage being a solid 2nd liner.
On D, it’s a lot more thin but 1 move can change it all. If somehow you can switch Matheson for a Top 4 RHD that can eat big minutes and who is more solid defensively, we will be very solid. I’m 100% positive Reinbacher makes it as a top4 RHD also.
Slaf-Suzuki-Caufield
Demidov-Hage—Laine
Newhook-Beck-Dach
Olivier-Evans-Tuch/Xhekaj
Guhle-RHD
Hutson-Reinbacher
Xhekaj-Carrier/Engstrom
Fowler
Dobes
IMO we need to do everything we can to go get that elusive top 4 RHD. Overpay if needed. We have the pieces to make it happen:
Habs 2025 1st (top 8-12)
Calgary’s 2025 1st (top 10-15 )
Columbus 2025 2nd
Habs 2025 2nd
Habs 2026 1st
Matheson
Mailloux
Roy
Vachon23
Registered User
Easier to find depth in the FA when your in San Jose though.
They got lucky to have the #1 pick in a year where the #1 player was a franchise player. That always help
I see Suzuki as a Bergeron-type C on a Cup contending team, but for that to happen, a lot of rounding out of the roster still needs to happen:
1) Confirming a 2nd top-6 Center from within, or securing one from outside the organization -- a Krejci type to support Suzuki, at the very least.
2) Acquiring a top-4 RHD to play with Hutson. Reinbacher, if he recovers properly from his knee injury, could form a quality shutdown pairing with Guhle. Carrier could play alongside Xhekaj. From this, obviously, bothmailloux and Engstrom could be used to acquire a RHD, along with another asset like a first round draft pick or Roy, even.
3) Improving the G situation, from within, or from outside the system.Thereis stil ltime to see if Dobes can help improve the situation as we wait to see if Fowler is the real deal. We mustn't rush Fowler and risk scrapping his development path!
4) Adding some truculence with some skill in the bottom-6 (maybe Olivier?).
Vachon23
Registered User
We can’t compare Suzuki and Bergeron though, offensively maybe but defensively they are not in the same league. Same thing with ROR.
Suzuki is closer to Krecji then he is to Bergeron
Ideally, a C like Dach that pans out would fit that bill and represent a different look down the middle.
A consistent Dach like during the two games in Florida would be what the doctor ordered. There is still time, IMO -- until Christmas next year -- to see if that can transpire.
The danger in overspending -- and I'm not against that if you are adding the missing link -- is not targeting the right player, in the end.Yeah I think on offense, we have the pieces to make it happens. Yes we would ideally need another Suzuki level center on the 2nd line but you know what, I think Demidov will be that guy but from the wing. I also have a lot of confidence in Hage being a solid 2nd liner.
On D, it’s a lot more thin but 1 move can change it all. If somehow you can switch Matheson for a Top 4 RHD that can eat big minutes and who is more solid defensively, we will be very solid. I’m 100% positive Reinbacher makes it as a top4 RHD also.
Slaf-Suzuki-Caufield
Demidov-Hage—Laine
Newhook-Beck-Dach
Olivier-Evans-Tuch/Xhekaj
Guhle-RHD
Hutson-Reinbacher
Xhekaj-Carrier/Engstrom
Fowler
Dobes
IMO we need to do everything we can to go get that elusive top 4 RHD. Overpay if needed. We have the pieces to make it happen:
Habs 2025 1st (top 8-12)
Calgary’s 2025 1st (top 10-15 )
Columbus 2025 2nd
Habs 2025 2nd
Habs 2026 1st
Matheson
Mailloux
Roy
There is no room for error in such a scenario, because there are now fewer assets left over to make up for a mistake.
For example, let's say the NYRs make Braden Schneider available, but require that the Habs pony up one of Engstrom/Mailloux, Roy/Beck and the CAL 1st round pick for him.
If Schneider ends up more of a 3rd pairing D and doesn't provide the right chemistry to be Hutson's pairing partner that can add physicality, shutdown acumen and fluid skating, it would be a costly overpay, IMO.
Always a gamble, but SportsForecaster (Hockey News NHL scouting report of old), while maintaining that Schneider's offensive upside will always be limited, asserts that teams don't/can't win championships without the shutdown abilities and physical play that Schneider can bring.
All fine and dandy if he pairs up well with Hutson as a complement to the younger Ds more offensive talents, or as a shutdown partner on a pairing with Guhle.
Would you trade one of Mailloux/Engstrom, one of Beck/Roy and the 2025 first round pick we end up with from the trade with CAL for Schneider?
On D, I'd be fine with a top-6 of either:
Guhle - Reinbacher
Hutson - Schneider
Xhekaj - Carrier/Mailloux/Engstrom
Mailloux, Engstrom, Carrier, Struble
- OR -
Guhle - Schneider
Hutson - Reinbacher
Xhekaj - Carrier/Mailloux/Engstrom
Mailloux, Engstrom, Carrier, Struble
I think we'd be set for a long while, personally.
The only concern I would have would be losing Beck in the deal.
If it was Roy, I'd be disappointed in losing the local guy with a lot of upside, but Could live with that, especially if Dach were to round out and a genuine 2nd line C:
Demidov - Suzuki - Laine
Caufield - Dach - Slafkovsky
Heineman - Desnoyers - Hage
F. Xhekaj/ - Beck - Carbonneau
I think it is entirely feasible to trade away our CAL 1st rounder and still end up selecting Desnoyers with our own first round pick in 2025. We could also end up selecting Carbonneau (Guy Carbonneau's speedy and skilled power forward son) by moving up after packaging two late first round picks we might end up getting for both Matheson and Evans at the trade deadline, if all goes well.
A lineup like the one above would provide options fora second line C if Dach doesn't pan out; Hage, Desnoyers, Beck, Demidov, even...
WeThreeKings
Demidov is a HAB
Milhouse40
Registered User
- Aug 19, 2010
- 22,640
- 25,901
The state of the rebuild for me is pretty easy for the next 18 months
Not using ANY prospect other than Demidov
Top 6:
1- Suzuki
2- Demidov
3- Laine
4- Caufield
5- Slafkovsky
There's one more open spot on the top 6, that's it.
Bottom 6:
1- Gallagher
2- Anderson
3- Heineman
There's 3 open spots as of now.
There's 2 NHL Candidates for those 4 spots so far: Dach and Newhook
So overall upfront, without any trades, signing or promotion......There's 2 open spots for next year.
On defense:
1- Guhle
2- Hutson
3- Matheson
4- Carrier
5- Xhekaj
That leave one open spots on D for next year only
Not using ANY prospect other than Demidov
Top 6:
1- Suzuki
2- Demidov
3- Laine
4- Caufield
5- Slafkovsky
There's one more open spot on the top 6, that's it.
Bottom 6:
1- Gallagher
2- Anderson
3- Heineman
There's 3 open spots as of now.
There's 2 NHL Candidates for those 4 spots so far: Dach and Newhook
So overall upfront, without any trades, signing or promotion......There's 2 open spots for next year.
On defense:
1- Guhle
2- Hutson
3- Matheson
4- Carrier
5- Xhekaj
That leave one open spots on D for next year only
JianYang
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2017
- 20,005
- 19,912
I've been excited enough at a dach/Suzuki dynamic before. This season has certainly put a damper on that and despite dach slowly improving and picking up a couple goals recently, he's still not looking like that same dach to me.
I still hold out hope though that he can get back to that form and build on it, because it is a very hard dynamic to find. But they should always have their radar on to see if they can find more of a sure thing in the meantime.
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