The state of the Habs Rebuild - The Next step

[austin316]

This team is still so young. Defence is promising but very young. There will be growing pains when 4 of your top 6 are 23 or younger. Mistakes are to be expected.

I would love to see a general infusion of more size and skill in both our defense and forward group moving forward as we are still way too soft. The lack of profession from Dach so far is worrisome but let’s give him another month or so and reevaluate in December.

Many of our best prospects are still not on the team and this is an important year as we shed some contracts and hopefully load up at the draft again with another top 7 pick and use our other first rounder and/or multiple 2nd/3rd rounders to stack our prospect pool or acquire younger talent.

I feel like summer 2025 is the most important year in our rebuild and will define our team for years to come.

 

[montreal]

@WeThreeKings @OldCraig71 @Runner77 you really think this is the best spot for Hutson? He would be more insulated in Laval , they are a more structured team with more size to insulate him. I know talent wise he can chip in some points but the rest of his game isn't going to translate with this team in front. Where do you want him?

I'm a big fan of taking it slow especially with kids that need to work on something, as I would say never take a 17 year old 3rd OA pick that spent almost the entire season on the wing, would I put him at center at 18 when he had a major knee injury and clearly had major balance, skating issues.

With Hutson it's a tough call as I just can't wrap my head about 161 lbs blueliner, so I was all in favor of him returning to the NCAA for 1 more year. The problem is that wouldn't do him any good since he has clearly dominated that league despite his lack of weight and strength so it's a tougher call when you have someone so skilled that is ripping up the league but so tiny.

 

[Sorinth]

Some defensive structure is unrealistic?

I mean yeah, we were running a D with 2 guys with less then 10 NHL games each, and 2 more with 101 and 58 NHL games respectively and to top it off of the 2 guys who have more then 102 NHL games one of them is well known for defensive miscues. And the two not dressed last game have 119 and 100 NHL games. So yes when going up against contenders on the top of their game like the NYR are we will be exposed defensively.

Expecting a team in year 3 of the rebuild with only 1 D on the the team drafted after the rebuild started to be good defensively is unrealistic. Good defensive teams don't finish at the bottom like we did, and D is one of if not the area that takes the longest to develop because so much is based on experience. And considering we have even more rookies that we will be integrating into the NHL over the next few years it's going to be quite a while before we see a team with good defensive structure.

 

[Habby4Life]

I mean yeah, we were running a D with 2 guys with less then 10 NHL games each, and 2 more with 101 and 58 NHL games respectively and to top it off of the 2 guys who have more then 102 NHL games one of them is well known for defensive miscues. And the two not dressed last game have 119 and 100 NHL games. So yes when going up against contenders on the top of their game like the NYR are we will be exposed defensively.

Expecting a team in year 3 of the rebuild with only 1 D on the the team drafted after the rebuild started to be good defensively is unrealistic. Good defensive teams don't finish at the bottom like we did, and D is one of if not the area that takes the longest to develop because so much is based on experience. And considering we have even more rookies that we will be integrating into the NHL over the next few years it's going to be quite a while before we see a team with good defensive structure.

Once again, who said good defensively. I will settle with less beer league and more like an NHL team.

The same thing happened against the leafs (except the could not score), the Bruins, and to a lesser extent both islanders and kings.

 

[Habs]

I'm a big fan of taking it slow especially with kids that need to work on something, as I would say never take a 17 year old 3rd OA pick that spent almost the entire season on the wing, would I put him at center at 18 when he had a major knee injury and clearly had major balance, skating issues.

With Hutson it's a tough call as I just can't wrap my head about 161 lbs blueliner, so I was all in favor of him returning to the NCAA for 1 more year. The problem is that wouldn't do him any good since he has clearly dominated that league despite his lack of weight and strength so it's a tougher call when you have someone so skilled that is ripping up the league but so tiny.

Faire enough, I just don't think this is the environment to be adapting in at this point

Who is the best partner for him with MTL? Is it Savard? Guhle? Barron? And is that the best situation for him?

Guhle would be my choice in MTL?

 

[Intangir]

Once again, who said good defensively. I will settle with less beer league and more like an NHL team.

The same thing happened against the leafs (except the could not score), the Bruins, and to a lesser extent both islanders and kings.

At some point two things need to happen; there needs to be changes to the strategy and more energy from our forwards back-checking to help our D, and there also needs to be some accountability despite less-than-ideal circumstances on our D's side.

Every single one of our defensemen looked bad against the Rangers. And we've looked flat against basically every team we've played this year.

Right now I also think that with St. Louis the guys are plainly too comfortable, and that's not a good thing since he has so far failed to make our players feel any sense of urgency.

If this trend of low-effort hockey and no emotion continues, and if St. Louis continues having issues motivating our players to come to the games prepared and ready to compete, then he may have reached his "expiry date" much sooner than I thought would be the case.

I thought we could just settle in, ride St. Louis' general coaching ineptitude to another high pick for one more year, and then maybe make a change when our team is looking stronger.

But with the 4-game losing streak, and some FUGLY games in there, I really think there needs to be a MAJOR pushback from the team in the coming games or MSL's seat will start getting hotter quickly and the city as well as the fan's goodwill towards him will start crumbling away.

 

[Habby4Life]

At some point two things need to happen; there needs to be changes to the strategy and more energy from our forwards back-checking to help our D, and there also needs to be some accountability despite less-than-ideal circumstances on our D's side.

Every single one of our defensemen looked bad against the Rangers. And we've looked flat against basically every team we've played this year.

Right now I also think that with St. Louis the guys are plainly too comfortable, and that's not a good thing since he has so far failed to make our players feel any sense of urgency.

If this trend of low-effort hockey and no emotion continues, and if St. Louis continues having issues motivating our players to come to the games prepared and ready to compete, then he may have reached his "expiry date" much sooner than I thought would be the case.

I thought we could just settle in, ride St. Louis' general coaching ineptitude to another high pick for one more year, and then maybe make a change when our team is looking stronger.

But with the 4-game losing streak, and some FUGLY games in there, I really think there needs to be a MAJOR pushback from the team in the coming games or MSL's seat will start getting hotter quickly and the city and the fan's goodwill towards him will start crumbling away.

 

[StreetHawk]

Guhle would be my choice in MTL?

That's asking a lot out of Guhle, who has a year and half of NHL games under his belt right now. And on top, he has to play on his offside to pair with Hutson.

 

[montreal]

Faire enough, I just don't think this is the environment to be adapting in at this point



Guhle would be my choice in MTL?

I think 100% that MSL is the right coach for Hutson, any of the past HC's in the last 20 years would have benched Hutson after the turnover goal, and that would be stupid way to develop offensive talent. You listen to Hutson's comment after the game saying that after he said to MSL it was a bad play, MSL told him he's got to go out there and play his game. Do you see Dom, MT, or Julien doing that?

On the other hand, he's so small and while he's great at not getting smoked, part of the reason you don't want to rush 18, 19, 20 year olds to the best league in the world before they are physically ready is of course injuries. So it's a valid concern imo. Then add how sometimes when rebuilding, it might be better to have a bunch of the kids play together in the AHL under less pressure vs being on a bottom 5 team with the most rabid media/fan base.

There's a number of tough calls here, I can see the sense of either side but with Hutson there's just never been anyone like him ever so cases like this can be really tough for the development staff imo.

 

[JoelWarlord]

That's asking a lot out of Guhle, who has a year and half of NHL games under his belt right now. And on top, he has to play on his offside to pair with Hutson.

I don't think it would be too much for Guhle to handle but then it just creates a problem with the other pairing because Savard has really struggled other than the first game or two. Savard hasn't been able to be that dependable vet for Hutson and it wouldn't be any better in aggregate to have him playing like this as Matheson's partner.

 

[StreetHawk]

I don't think it would be too much for Guhle to handle but then it just creates a problem with the other pairing because Savard has really struggled other than the first game or two. Savard hasn't been able to be that dependable vet for Hutson and it wouldn't be any better in aggregate to have him playing like this as Matheson's partner.

Guhle is still young himself. He has to work on his own game too. Not ideal to bear the responsibility of helping out a rookie. But, that's on management for only have Matheson and Savard as veterans.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Guhle is still young himself. He has to work on his own game too. Not ideal to bear the responsibility of helping out a rookie. But, that's on management for only have Matheson and Savard as veterans.

I agree in general terms about not overloading him and once Guhle is back I'd rather stick with Matheson-Guhle / Hutson-Savard for the time being, but I'm honestly not sure if playing with Hutson would be significantly more responsibilty for him than playing with Matheson given he's the defensive consciences on that pairing too.

 

[OldCraig71]

@WeThreeKings @OldCraig71 @Runner77 you really think this is the best spot for Hutson? He would be more insulated in Laval , they are a more structured team with more size to insulate him. I know talent wise he can chip in some points but the rest of his game isn't going to translate with this team in front. Where do you want him?

It's hard to say with Hutson, he moves so well and is very dynamic with the puck on his stick. It would be a better situation if he could be sheltered on the third pair against weaker opposition instead of the current situation with the Habs. He's probably too good for the AHL but is figuring out that most of the guys he faces in the NHL are much different than anything he saw at the collegiate level.

Lets wait till the 20 game mark to see if he is struggling and make a decision by then. It would be great if he had an established stay at home NHL defensive partner to cover his shortcomings.

 

[Habs]

I think 100% that MSL is the right coach for Hutson, any of the past HC's in the last 20 years would have benched Hutson after the turnover goal, and that would be stupid way to develop offensive talent. You listen to Hutson's comment after the game saying that after he said to MSL it was a bad play, MSL told him he's got to go out there and play his game. Do you see Dom, MT, or Julien doing that?

On the other hand, he's so small and while he's great at not getting smoked, part of the reason you don't want to rush 18, 19, 20 year olds to the best league in the world before they are physically ready is of course injuries. So it's a valid concern imo. Then add how sometimes when rebuilding, it might be better to have a bunch of the kids play together in the AHL under less pressure vs being on a bottom 5 team with the most rabid media/fan base.

There's a number of tough calls here, I can see the sense of either side but with Hutson there's just never been anyone like him ever so cases like this can be really tough for the development staff imo.

It's a tough call, I don't. see it going very well on this blueline this year though. Every shift I'm worried he's going to get clobbered, he often makes some dangerous moves lol

 

[Miller Time]

How do you see the season unfolding based on what you have seen through the first 7 games? Typically we see weaker teams gain the most points early in the season before the best teams get serious but we aren't seeing that from this years group.

If injuries to key top 6 & top 4 players continue to be an issue, then it's probably a safe bet we'll finish in the bottom 5-8.

Totally agree that the overall competitiveness of the last 1/3 of the season ramps up... But I also think that, as we saw last year, our young core group should be playing at a higher level in the back half of the season compared to the first half... If the coaching staff continues to do a great job of keeping the buy in & engagement high despite the losses & Hughes selling rather than buying as the deadline approaches

Last season we were in games till the end and the team showed signs of promise despite terrible luck with injuries. It wasn't just hot take posters (I guess I'm one) here that liked the progression from the kids but sports media types and NHL people as well. There was plenty of optimism going around but that has faded quickly to start this season.

The optimism fading after 7 games is emotional reaction to a small sample size.

Slaf, CC, Guhle, Strubble, Newhook, Barron all appear to be playing at or above how they finished last year.

Hutson & Kapanen (& arguably Heineman) have all started above expectations.

Dach has started a bit below expectations, but perhaps expectations were a bit high given the nature and extent of the inhljury.

Xhekaj & Roy are the only two real disappointments this far.

Let's see how things look through 20-30 games before hitting the panic button

This team looks lost and yeah, even a hot take guy like myself wasn't expecting the 77 Habs out there but I was expecting to see a step forward from most of the group and I don't think that could be called unrealistic expectations on my part. Yes we are playing inexperienced guys on the roster but we also heard management saying they wanted to be in the mix. Did they make the mistake of playing too many young players at once? Could they have left some of the kids in Laval and given them 5-10 game auditions to get their feet wet instead of giving them full time spots?

"Yes we are playing inexperienced guys" is a major understatement.

2 dmen over 23 years old.
All our over 25 forwards are bottom 6 caliber

We lost 3 of our top 4-5 talents to injury.

I think if we look at the context, the difficult start is pretty much on point.

Oilers, Flyers & Preds are off to a worse start despite none of the injury concerns and far more veteran impact players.

It's a small sample size, and imo understandably challenging for a roster with so little veteran talent to easily respond to key injuries.

Was it a mistake not to add more?
We added an 8.7M veteran with the skill and realistic ability to be a line driver...

That move reduced the cap flex for other additions.

Would a few PTO's have been in order? Perhaps, but that would've pushed the likes of Strubble, Kapanen & Heineman to the AHL. I'm not sure that this would've made us any better short or long term.

If we struggle with injuries through November, I wouldn't be surprised to see an aggressive move to add a top 6/top 4 asset, but I also wouldn't be opposed to staying the course and learning into the highs & lows of icing one of the youngest rosters in the league (& youngest top 6 / top 4)

Rebuilding was a necessity for us but there is delicate balance between building a good core and exposing young players to what can become a losing culture. We have seen this from many teams in the NHL and some of the rebuilds go on for 5-10 years. It might have been that the pressure to learn at the NHL level and the expectations of winning were to much to bear for a group of 18-22 year old players.

I don't think we have a losing culture right now. While fans see mounting losses as a sign of a losing culture, it's far more nuanced than that. As long as we are able to maintain the engagement and competitive mindset among our young core that we saw last season (a strong indicator that they are bought into the process), then we aren't at risk of the losing mentality setting in that I think you are referring to.

It's a fine line, but ultimately a team culture gets reset every year. Having a good culture in place, with veteran leaders to steward it, makes it easier to sustain year over year, but it is not a given.

Conversely, adding vets on its own doesn't mean you'll get a positive bump in the locker room that season.

I see many signs from our leadership group that they get what culture building requires, and are patiently putting the pieces in place to get our young core ready to be a veteran group that sustains excellence for years to come. While fans may want to see the quick fix/immediate gratification of a signing or trade, a well structured rebuild resists the temptation of those kinds of moves... The failed yzerplan in Detroit is a great recent example of the pitfalls of making lots of middling vet additions at the expense of ice time & role opportunities. What the likes of Newhook, Strubble, Dach, Barron are going through now - thrust into roles they aren't yet fully able to excel in, but not stappling them to the bench when they struggle- may well prepare them for much more resilient and consistent play once they hit their respective primes...

Sam Bennett is a guy many fans, understandably, want to see us add. His career trajectory is a great example of why a long term lens and patience is worth it when possible... I followed him closely in Calgary. It was obvious to me that the team wasn't as invested in him as they should've been and that he was a great buy low candidate. Moved to a better roster and opportunity -as he entered his physical prime- and he took off.

The challenge for a GM is to navigate the fan and media pressure (& ownership, in many cases), to allow for the actual time it takes most athletes to hit their stride.

We are assembling a great mix of high end talent, highly coachable and team first players, and lining up a great cap situation to have a core in their prime (~24-29) locked in, with the flex to add that 1-2 big pieces and 2-4 ELC/RFA studs on bargain value hits.

It'll flip fast, as long as that core stays bought in. I think they will.

I value your opinion as a poster because I have read many good takes from you over the years and I look forward to your response.

Ditto &

 

[Nicko999]

Porter Martone would be amazing.
But Hagens and Misa would be awesome as well.
The rebuild will continue as long as we don’t have better forwards.

 

[Milhouse40]

It's hard to say with Hutson, he moves so well and is very dynamic with the puck on his stick. It would be a better situation if he could be sheltered on the third pair against weaker opposition instead of the current situation with the Habs. He's probably too good for the AHL but is figuring out that most of the guys he faces in the NHL are much different than anything he saw at the collegiate level.

Lets wait till the 20 game mark to see if he is struggling and make a decision by then. It would be great if he had an established stay at home NHL defensive partner to cover his shortcomings.

I think this is the next step of rebuild.....and it was even before Hutson made the team.

We have 2 veterans on defense
Both of them are not good enough
If we can only have 2 veterans, both of them need to be able to shelter at least one of our prospect each....this is not the case.

But with Hutson, it became obvious as we're not even able to use this kid fully cause of a lack of a good RHD able to help him out. Savard and Matheson are good players, but not those type of players and it's impossible to get that steady experience from prospect or draft pick.......this need to be taken care on the trade market and important enough to overpay to get what this team need.

 

[OldCraig71]

@Miller Time thanks for the reply. I am willing to pump the brakes till the 20 game mark but I do have higher expectations for a group that has spent parts of the last 3 seasons together and I want to see progression from MSL as a coach and so far it isn't there. Yes, we are inexperienced but we need the players to embrace the system he is trying to implement but early on the players look disorganized.

Suzuki seems to have snapped out of his funk and that bodes well for the first line because he is the best player on it. Dach has to show some consistency and improved effort in his game or he won't stay in the long term plans. The good news is his show me contract that won't handcuff Hughes if he chooses to move him.

I'm off the ledge(for now).

 

[Runner77]

@WeThreeKings @OldCraig71 @Runner77 you really think this is the best spot for Hutson? He would be more insulated in Laval , they are a more structured team with more size to insulate him. I know talent wise he can chip in some points but the rest of his game isn't going to translate with this team in front. Where do you want him?

I think he’s a little light at 160 lbs by NHL standards. He survives on his smarts and his elusiveness but ideally if he could weigh in at 175-180 lbs without compromising his style of play or speed, he’d be more effective in the D zone. The Habs’s training people and their access to advanced data can help them determine that better than any of us.

He’s also a unique player on D that the Habs haven’t had in years.

Remember how we questioned management’s wisdom about having kept Slaf in the NHL rather than starting him in the AHL? Look at how that turned out in the 2nd half of last season.

Let him rack up a more representative sample of NHL games and then reassess. He may or may not evolve in the same manner as Slaf however the coaching staff have been right at this before, going against popular fan opinion last year — maybe they’ll be right again.

 

[montreal]

Porter Martone would be amazing.
But Hagens and Misa would be awesome as well.
The rebuild will continue as long as we don’t have better forwards.

the rebuild will continue until they get better at most things. Granted I haven't watched too much of the season and I likely picked a bad game last night to have it be the game I planned on actually watching the full game for the first time in a long time as they looked like total shit.

Demidov - Hutson is something to build on for sure, they will need more high end stars then that though. Hage, maybe joins them. Slaf I really don't know what to make of in terms of how many points he will be able to consistently produce, and of course we have 2 1st's this year plus next years draft could be a big one at the top if things continue to go south again.