Prospect Info: The Second Overall Pick Thread: Part III (Kakko/Hughes Talk)

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Simple question: All things being equal, if we had ended up with the #1 overall pick, who do you think Gorton would take...Kakko or Hughes?

I contend Gorton would take Kakko as I believe he would want the most NHL ready player but I'd love to read your opinions.

I think he would go with Kakko but not because he's the most NHL ready. I think no GM would use that argument at 1st overall. Kakko however has probably the same upside as Hughes.

A lot of people defending Hughes are using the "Hughes will still grow" argument as if Kakko won't grow anymore at age 18. They're 3 months apart in terms of age. Kakko is just a different player. In many ways this draft reminds me of 2004 when the choice was Ovechkin or Malkin. You cannot go wrong here. It just depends on who you like more on draft day and I know the Rangers have seen a lot of Kakko simply because of the ties between TPS and the Rangers. Drafting Reunanen, Virta and Pajuniemi from them, signing Georgiev from them and their Finnish scout, Mikko Eloranta, still has ties to TPS as well.

 

[Ola]

I would go with Hughes and I think Gorts would too, but not because I have not been blown away by Kakko lately as much as everyone else, but I do think that you with a superior skating center kind of get a strong performance so continuously on a shift by shift basis. Its like with a trimmed 2 or 4-stroke engine, it performs top torque from the moment you touch the accelerator and gets to a high RPM so fast.

Nobody can perform in the NHL by just putting their skates on the ice. But that superior skating center that can handle the puck at top speed just got a lower thresh-hold before he can make a big positive contribution if you get what I mean.

A player like Kakko, or a bigger center that is a little less mobile, can just as well win games, PO series or Championships. But the thresh-hold to get to that level is higher. It requires more from the player in terms of showing up and playing at his peak, and more from the environment.

So over a 10-15 year period, I just think that the odds of betting on someone like Hughes to provide the highest 'total performance' of the two. With that said, if we get Kakko which I think is very likely that we will, I don't at all think that it have to get a lower shot at winning a Cup.

 

[WeRa]

I think he would go with Kakko but not because he's the most NHL ready. I think no GM would use that argument at 1st overall. Kakko however has probably the same upside as Hughes.

A lot of people defending Hughes are using the "Hughes will still grow" argument as if Kakko won't grow anymore at age 18. They're 3 months apart in terms of age. Kakko is just a different player. In many ways this draft reminds me of 2004 when the choice was Ovechkin or Malkin. You cannot go wrong here. It just depends on who you like more on draft day and I know the Rangers have seen a lot of Kakko simply because of the ties between TPS and the Rangers. Drafting Reunanen, Virta and Pajuniemi from them, signing Georgiev from them and their Finnish scout, Mikko Eloranta, still has ties to TPS as well.

You are absolutely right. But IMO Gorton would go with Hughes.
Both have almost the same potential. Jack is a dynamic, American-born center, special talent who broke many records, product of US development system. Can you imagine a colossal impact on a franchise in the coming years? American super star in the top american team...

 

[jniklast]

German news page Spiegel Online has an article on Kakko. That's exceptional considering that ice hockey itself is not that popular in Germany and Kakko is not a German prospect.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

 

[Kaako Kappo]

I would go with Hughes and I think Gorts would too, but not because I have not been blown away by Kakko lately as much as everyone else, but I do think that you with a superior skating center kind of get a strong performance so continuously on a shift by shift basis. Its like with a trimmed 2 or 4-stroke engine, it performs top torque from the moment you touch the accelerator and gets to a high RPM so fast.

Nobody can perform in the NHL by just putting their skates on the ice. But that superior skating center that can handle the puck at top speed just got a lower thresh-hold before he can make a big positive contribution if you get what I mean.

A player like Kakko, or a bigger center that is a little less mobile, can just as well win games, PO series or Championships. But the thresh-hold to get to that level is higher. It requires more from the player in terms of showing up and playing at his peak, and more from the environment.

So over a 10-15 year period, I just think that the odds of betting on someone like Hughes to provide the highest 'total performance' of the two. With that said, if we get Kakko which I think is very likely that we will, I don't at all think that it have to get a lower shot at winning a Cup.

But if you look at Hughes in the WHC it's obvious that even though his skating it's ridiculous, it's not enough. He lacks the explosiveness of players like MacKinnon, McDavid and even Mat Barzal, which helps these players to blow past everyone. Even the GB players took away his speed and just squished him.

 

[NYR Viper]

But if you look at Hughes in the WHC it's obvious that even though his skating it's ridiculous, it's not enough. He lacks the explosiveness of players like MacKinnon, McDavid and even Mat Barzal, which helps these players to blow past everyone. Even the GB players took away his speed and just squished him.

His brother Quinn looked pretty good in limited time last year. Jack is the better player. The US team in general has looked like dog shit

 

[Ola]

But if you look at Hughes in the WHC it's obvious that even though his skating it's ridiculous, it's not enough. He lacks the explosiveness of players like MacKinnon, McDavid and even Mat Barzal, which helps these players to blow past everyone. Even the GB players took away his speed and just squished him.

Agreed, nothing is guaranteed and Hughes must keep developing.

But I can't help to think of Sidney Crosby at more or less the same age. I went to Helsinki for his first WJCs. Crosby was 16 and a half. He was lightning and exciting to watch, but also so light. He was far from dominant, played on the 4th line for Canada and only shone here and there during games. Exactly 1.5 years later, he started a NHL season which he finished with 102 pts. He was totally transformed, had begun to get that fire hydrant (sp?) built, but was still young and raw. But he kept going in that direction like for a good decade. It wasn't a ton of years ago you last heard reports of Sid taking it a notch further and showing up in sick shape.

Hughes is a super ambitious kid who I think its reasonable to expect to put in a ton of work going forward too. I definitely think his explosiveness in his skating will improve, his balance, how strong he is on the puck and so forth.

This is no age to benchmark these kids for future performance. I was in St. P in 99' and saw the Sedin's play in the WCH's as 17 y/o. They were 0+0 and 0+1. I remember AOs pre-draft eligble WCHs, he was 1+1 and a total lose cannon that looked like he was running on his skates in straight lines to the net... I have afterwards seen Jagr's WCHs pre-draft, a friend got a game on VCR in which the famous Cage-Line plays. All of Holik-Reichel-Jagr have cages, I thought all three was draft eligble but the requirements have changed for when you can get rid of the cage so Holik and Reichel was drafted the year before. Jagr is sick, and the game was so different. But he still grew a sick amount.

So to summerize, I love our chances with Kakko, but with a gun to my head I would take Hughes. I agree with your observation -- but I think Hughes will add that explosiveness.

 

[Crease]

I had a dream they traded the second overall pick for a pile of late round picks and didn't draft until the fourth round and I was so frustrated I kicked myself awake.

 

[ijuka]

Agreed, nothing is guaranteed and Hughes must keep developing.

But I can't help to think of Sidney Crosby at more or less the same age. I went to Helsinki for his first WJCs. Crosby was 16 and a half.

That's not "more or less the same age", though. And Crosby at 16 is probably more skilled than hughes will ever be. All in all, a forced comparison.

But if you look at Hughes in the WHC it's obvious that even though his skating it's ridiculous, it's not enough. He lacks the explosiveness of players like MacKinnon, McDavid and even Mat Barzal, which helps these players to blow past everyone. Even the GB players took away his speed and just squished him.

Does not rely on start&stop, actually mostly seems to be reliant on constantly moving so he doesn't need to accelerate from a full stop. Also, agility doesn't look great, GB isn't even Mestis level and this is big ice. All in all, this tournament's made me feel like the majority of his skating has been falsely advertized.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

His brother Quinn looked pretty good in limited time last year. Jack is the better player. The US team in general has looked like dog ****

Yes but you don't need the same explosiveness on the backline, because you're...well..on the backline. I've no doubt Jack will be a great player in the NHL, I just think he might need one more year.

 

[Ola]

That's not "more or less the same age", though. And Crosby at 16 is probably more skilled than hughes will ever be. All in all, a forced comparison.

No, not even remotely. Crosby at 16.5 was a tweener at the U20 WJCs, huuuuge difference. He was that kid with a way too big jersey at that age. Sure he made some electric plays and turn heads with his buzzing and speed, but he was not an impact player overall. Barkov was definitely better at the WJCs as a 16 y/o than Crosby was at the same age.

 

[ijuka]

No, not even remotely. Crosby at 16.5 was a tweener at the U20 WJCs, huuuuge difference. He was that kid with a way too big jersey at that age. Sure he made some electric plays and turn heads with his buzzing and speed, but he was not an impact player overall. Barkov was definitely better at the WJCs as a 16 y/o than Crosby was at the same age.

Well, Crosby did score better than Barkov, but I was talking about skill. And Hughes didn't even play at u-20s last year so I don't get the point of these unfair comparisons. Players tend to be better with a year more of development, that much is obvious. But I really don't get the point of using Crosby. Hughes doesn't dominate the boards even vs players his age.

 

[BB88]

Still lot of people are saying Hughes is the best player on the draft, today, really?
Not certainly against top competition.

They also say Hughes has the highest ceiling, why?

These are honest questions but at times real difficult to get good answers, it just seems like it's mainly scouts having Hughes #1 for such a long time. Well great argument.

I want Kakko to New York Rangers so I have no reasons to push for Kakko to Devils, but it seems to odd to not be even able to talk about Hughes vs Kakko as there's a clear difference between the 2 and the toughest games of their careers shouldn't mean anything.

 

[Irishguy42]

In a larger sample size of games, Hughes has demonstrated to be the better talent (which is not to say that Kakko isn't a great talent). It really is that simple.

 

[Nate070]

Yeah that's kind of what I was talking about. Things went pretty easy for him, his shot was magic, then teams started paying extra attention to him, gameplanning around him a bit, and took away some of those "easy" goals. But like you mention, it's also the rest of the team supporting him and helping enable him to use his skills. Probably a lot of things go into slumps including just plain bad luck.

The Fortnite stuff is funny but for various reasons. There's certainly a bit of a "damn kids these days!" aspect to it (what did they do back in the 80's? probably go out drinking and do lots of drugs), but at the same time it's a game designed to be addictive as all hell and people aren't immune to those things just because they're pro athletes. Even if it doesn't affect your physical training and prep, it can affect your mental prep and being prepared for games, etc. Did it have something to do with Laine's drop in production? I'm not going to make that guess but I wouldn't dismiss the general idea of stuff like that causing some issues in a players game.

Laine had back issues basically the whole season and then a groin injury during the play offs..

 

[Nate070]

Scandinavians should stick together.

We are not Scandinavians though.

 

[Nate070]

The most surprising thing Kakko has done is making me, a Swede, wanting to watch Finland’s games over Sweden’s games. It’s truly horrifying.

He´s mesmerizing to watch with that puck glued to his stick. You never know what he´s going to do. Actually that´s the problem now when he plays in this finnish team. They are not ready for some of his passes and miss open nets. Has already happened a couple of times. Give him some quality teammates and stuff will happen! It´s the first time we have this kind of player from Finland!

Edit: I have been following Suomi since late 70:s btw

 

[The Cannon of Tesoma]

I don't know what Laine... or worse - his 3rd NHL season has to do with Hughes or Kakko.

Stylistically its hard to find more different kind player than Laine compared to either of them.

 

[Nate070]

Agreed, nothing is guaranteed and Hughes must keep developing.

But I can't help to think of Sidney Crosby at more or less the same age. I went to Helsinki for his first WJCs. Crosby was 16 and a half. He was lightning and exciting to watch, but also so light. He was far from dominant, played on the 4th line for Canada and only shone here and there during games. Exactly 1.5 years later, he started a NHL season which he finished with 102 pts. He was totally transformed, had begun to get that fire hydrant (sp?) built, but was still young and raw. But he kept going in that direction like for a good decade. It wasn't a ton of years ago you last heard reports of Sid taking it a notch further and showing up in sick shape.

Hughes is a super ambitious kid who I think its reasonable to expect to put in a ton of work going forward too. I definitely think his explosiveness in his skating will improve, his balance, how strong he is on the puck and so forth.

This is no age to benchmark these kids for future performance. I was in St. P in 99' and saw the Sedin's play in the WCH's as 17 y/o. They were 0+0 and 0+1. I remember AOs pre-draft eligble WCHs, he was 1+1 and a total lose cannon that looked like he was running on his skates in straight lines to the net... I have afterwards seen Jagr's WCHs pre-draft, a friend got a game on VCR in which the famous Cage-Line plays. All of Holik-Reichel-Jagr have cages, I thought all three was draft eligble but the requirements have changed for when you can get rid of the cage so Holik and Reichel was drafted the year before. Jagr is sick, and the game was so different. But he still grew a sick amount.

So to summerize, I love our chances with Kakko, but with a gun to my head I would take Hughes. I agree with your observation -- but I think Hughes will add that explosiveness.

I see 0 Crosby in Hughes. Crosby is like Superman grinder type of a player.

 

[BB88]

In a larger sample size of games, Hughes has demonstrated to be the better talent (which is not to say that Kakko isn't a great talent). It really is that simple.

These are young kids who develop, or should develop constantly.
As we have seen Kakko has kept getting better, even as the games get tougher, and no this isn't based on 3 games or 5.

Kakko has shown his skills in top tier games vs juniors.

 

[Waivers]

Simple question: All things being equal, if we had ended up with the #1 overall pick, who do you think Gorton would take...Kakko or Hughes?

I contend Gorton would take Kakko as I believe he would want the most NHL ready player but I'd love to read your opinions.

I think that’s fair. I also think Kakko is more of a physical specimen and proved that he can shine playing against adults. Hughes looks like a child still, not knocking the kid either because he’s filthy, but I think he may take a little longer to develop against adults.

 

[darko]

We are not Scandinavians though.

Oh yes you are.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

We are not Scandinavians though.

Thank you

Don't listen to darko, he's just trying to trigger me because I pointed out Finland isn't Scandinavia and he refused to believe me

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

If he felt they had very even ceilings would Gorton go for Kakko at #1 because of a logjam at center? I don't think you can discount a #1 center driving the offense based on lesser centers on the roster.

Hughes
Zib (3 years remaining, UFA)
Strome (1 year remaining, RFA)
Chytil (1 year remaining, RFA)
Howden (RFA)
Andersson (1 year remaining, RFA)
Namestnikov (1 year remaining, UFA)
Nieves (1 year remaining, RFA)

Puts the Rangers at a disadvantage when trying to deal one or more of them... then again a lot of expiring contracts and who knows if Hughes will be given that #1-#2 center position throughout his entire rookie season. He could see AHL time.

Where I see the issue is Chytil, Howden, Strome & Andersson vying for 2 spots. Someone will be the odd man out or have to move to wing. Nieves and Names are expendable, though Names has some value that would be diminished by the drafting of Hughes.

I think Chytil could move to wing, maybe Andersson (Even though I like him, that pick will look even worse if we get Hughes)

That being said, landing Hughes would make the Rangers a little more attractive to Panarin and free agent wingers.