The Scotty Build vs. The Yzerplan

[Retire91]

It's kind of a weird point in time for comparison. I mean precap if you had an owner willing to spend you just create an atmosphere that attracts players and you can sign a hall of fame lineup to complement your core. You also had the Russian defection where you could get hall of fame players in their prime with like a 3rd round pick if you were willing to take the risk. 2008 we had the unbelievable luck of two late round All star HOF centers while still having a legendary D in the lineup.

Those are a lot of tools that were products of their time. Kenny also mortgaged the future to the N'th degree to keep the streak going so we started from one of the most bottom bottoms that ever bottomed. Not to mention competing against lottery luck. I mean if you stop and think about and put the emotion aside its how amazing a job Yzerman has done so far its mind blowing.

 

[ElProfessor]

It's kind of a weird point in time for comparison. I mean precap if you had an owner willing to spend you just create an atmosphere that attracts players and you can sign a hall of fame lineup to complement your core. You also had the Russian defection where you could get hall of fame players in their prime with like a 3rd round pick if you were willing to take the risk. 2008 we had the unbelievable luck of two late round All star HOF centers while still having a legendary D in the lineup.

Those are a lot of tools that were products of their time. Kenny also mortgaged the future to the N'th degree to keep the streak going so we started from one of the most bottom bottoms that ever bottomed. Not to mention competing against lottery luck. I mean if you stop and think about and put the emotion aside it’s how amazing a job Yzerman has done so far its mind blowing.

Well, just to go at this a bit..

1) The ‘97-‘98 teams weren’t “Detroit Yankees” crazy high salary teams.

2) Bowman left the organization after the ‘08 SC... Nill left in ‘13... if our drafting/personnel management in general hadn’t gone from league-best to league-worst as a result… the collapse wouldn’t have been what it was.

3) Line em up..

-Vernon/Osgood. There’s at least a chance Cossa/Augustine could be similar level.

-Lidstrom…no one…but Seider’s about as close as you could hope for.
-Konstantinov…Edvinsson could at least be close.
-Murphy (old)…ASP could at least be close.
-Fetisov (old)…Maybe Johansson could at least be close, maybe not.
-Rouse/Ward…not hard to find guys at that level.

-Fedorov…Don’t have anyone at that level.
-Yzerman (old)…Larkin approaches..
-Shanahan…Raymond approaches..
-Larionov (old)…Nate could approach..
-Kozlov…Kasper could approach..
-LaPointe…MBN could approach..
-Sandstrom…Buchelnikov could approach..
-Brown…Soder could approach..
-McCarty…Mazur could approach..
-Draper/Maltby/Kocur…don’t have guys like this yet, but wouldn’t be impossible to find them

It’s not completely insane to compare them..

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

In the podcast you just listened to and incorrectly telephoned Bowman said it was he, JimmyD, Jim Nill and Holland the intern . That’s 1, 2, 3, 4 people. And that’s this wk you’re incorrectly remembering a podcast from.

So yes, I will side with Bowman’s account of trades from 30yrs ago > yours / whatever one of Illitch’s cokehead grandkids you talked to at a party

You mean the brand new Director of Player Development hired by Holland? This is another one we have known about for years, I am not 91. I think he is combining different timelines throughout his tenure. Again not here to pick on Bowman, but also not really going with chunks of that interview, it was still a fascinating interview. Free to do whatever you want it is an internet forum.

Guardrails were put in, precisely because really the only thing Bowman failed at in hockey was his stop with full autonomy in Buffalo.

 

[dalem177]

I know this is not a unique opinion, but man I would love to see the team field a Grind Line 2.0. "Yeah, we're here to basically clog the ice and wreck your sh*t, but we can also score. Deal with it."

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I know this is not a unique opinion, but man I would love to see the team field a Grind Line 2.0. "Yeah, we're here to basically clog the ice and wreck your sh*t, but we can also score. Deal with it."

This is very tough to do in the salary cap era, you could argue Yzerman & Brisebois did this in Tampa for a bit with his third line, but had to blow it up because of the cap implications.

 

[ElProfessor]

Imagine if we sign a big forward this off-season (say Marner) and another next off-season (say Connor). Completely realistic cap-wise

Connor -- Larkin -- Marner
DeBrincat -- Kasper/Nate -- Raymond
Buchelnikov -- Kasper/Nate -- MBN
Soder --???/Finnie -- Mazur

That'd ^ potentially be a nice grind line

I know this is not a unique opinion, but man I would love to see the team field a Grind Line 2.0. "Yeah, we're here to basically clog the ice and wreck your sh*t, but we can also score. Deal with it."

This is very tough to do in the salary cap era, you could argue Yzerman & Brisebois did this in Tampa for a bit with his third line, but had to blow it up because of the cap implications.

 

[Retire91]

Well, just to go at this a bit..

1) The ‘97-‘98 teams weren’t “Detroit Yankees” crazy high salary teams.

2) Bowman left the organization after the ‘08 SC... Nill left in ‘13... if our drafting/personnel management in general hadn’t gone from league-best to league-worst as a result… the collapse wouldn’t have been what it was.

3) Line em up..

-Vernon/Osgood. There’s at least a chance Cossa/Augustine could be similar level.

-Lidstrom…no one…but Seider’s about as close as you could hope for.
-Konstantinov…Edvinsson could at least be close.
-Murphy (old)…ASP could at least be close.
-Fetisov (old)…Maybe Johansson could at least be close, maybe not.
-Rouse/Ward…not hard to find guys at that level.

-Fedorov…Don’t have anyone at that level.
-Yzerman (old)…Larkin approaches..
-Shanahan (old)…Raymond approaches..
-Larionov (old)…Nate could approach..
-Kozlov…Kasper could approach..
-LaPointe…MBN could approach..
-Sandstrom…Buchelnikov could approach..
-Brown…Soder could approach..
-McCarty…Mazur could approach..
-Draper/Maltby/Kocur…don’t have guys like this yet, but wouldn’t be impossible to find them

It’s not completely insane to compare them..

I mean the silver lining is the cap era did install parity to some degree. So we shouldn't need a dynasty roster to win the cup anymore.

 

[Henkka]

This is very tough to do in the salary cap era, you could argue Yzerman & Brisebois did this in Tampa for a bit with his third line, but had to blow it up because of the cap implications.

Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman was just scoring so much more than Maltby - Draper - McCarty ever did. Our guys were just shutting lines down.

2019-2022 Tampa line scoring:
- Gourde 0.55 points per game
- Coleman 0.50 points per game
- (Paul 0.46 points per game)
- Goodrow 0.35 points per game

Nick Paul replaced Blake Coleman after his short visit.

1997-2002 Grind line scoring:
- Darren McCarty 0.47 points per game
- Kris Draper 0.28 points per game
- Kirk Maltby 0.26 points per game
- (Joey Kocur 0.15 points per game)

Getting that kind of grind line back (being effective at shut-down duties), with that scoring, should not be a problem in a cap world. Guys like Veleno is scoring the same as Draper/Maltby nowadays. Salaries are pretty much based on scoring.

 

[ElProfessor]

Goodrow - Gourde - Coleman was just scoring so much more than Maltby - Draper - McCarty ever did. Our guys were just shutting lines down.

2019-2022 Tampa line scoring:
- Gourde 0.55 points per game
- Coleman 0.50 points per game
- Goodrow 0.35 points per game

1997-2002 Grind line scoring:
- Darren McCarty 0.47 points per game
- Kris Draper 0.28 points per game
- Mirk Maltby 0.26 points per game

Getting that kind of grind line back (being effective at shut-down duties), with that scoring, should not be a problem in a cap world. Guys like Veleno is scoring the same as Draper/Maltby nowadays. Salaries are pretty much based on scoring.

Would be interesting to see their playoff stats. Just watching all the 97, 98 and 02 playoff goal youtubes the other day...it seemed like at least 1/3rd of our goals those post-seasons were grind line goals

Though, McCarty played a lot on Yzerman's line in 97...and we sort of had grind line A (Maltby-Draper-McCarty) and B (Holmstrom-Gilchrist-Kocur) in 98

 

[ElProfessor]

In any case...I'd like to get back to what Bowman said about the key to today's game being defensemen who can rotate into forward positions (a very different thing than standard defensemen with big point shots and some basic passing/puck-handling ability) and still be solid in their own end.

Because I think he's 100% right.

And I think we could be really dominant in that regard in the decade to come.

.....

I really like the idea of drafting Aitcheson in the 1st this yr. He seems pretty advanced (physically and mentally) for a 17yr old in the CHL. He'll still need another post-draft CHL yr (25-26), and a full AHL yr (26-27); and he won't be ready to make his NHL debut until 2027 at the earliest...........but that'll be the case w 99% of the wings we could draft in the mid-1st too..........and I'm happy to wait.

I love this idea:

Aitcheson -- Seider
Edvinsson -- ASP
Wallinder -- Johansson

Cossa / Augustine

Playing behind...

Connor -- Larkin -- Marner
DeBrincat -- Danielson -- Raymond
Buchelnikov -- Kasper -- MBN
Soderblom --???/Finnie -- Mazur

That's ^ a dynasty

 

[Henkka]

Would be interesting to see their playoff stats. Just watching all the 97, 98 and 02 playoff goal youtubes the other day...it seemed like at least 1/3rd of our goals those post-seasons were grind line goals

Though, McCarty played a lot on Yzerman's line in 97...and we sort of had grind line A (Maltby-Draper-McCarty) and B (Holmstrom-Gilchrist-Kocur) in 98

Yeah, McCarty had that higher production, thanks to playing more at offensive lines also also on power-play. McCarty had 42 power-play points during 1997-02, when Maltby had 5 and Draper had 3.

At 1997 playoffs McCarty was with Sandström and Yzerman, and Maltby-Draper-Kocur was the grind-line. Usually, at injury cases, McCarty was promoted up on later years.

 

[DoMakc]

I mean Bowman basically confirmed that Yzerman trade was killed by Illitch. I don't buy this "oh talk didn't go that far" talk, they went far enough to get owner involved, means the concept of the trade was agreed, you just don't go to ask owner's permission without understanding of return. I don't have any reasons not to believe what TZE and i think Bowman confirms the part of the story which is possible to be confirmed

As for the whole discussion on strategy, inspirations, you need to look not furhter than Bowman's Montreal teams. Those were build around 3 outstanding defenseman, defensively responsible centers, winger(s) driving offence and huge goalie. And no, those team were not "Scotty Build" but built according to the Sam-plan.