The Scotty Build vs. The Yzerplan

[ElProfessor]

Idk if it’s kosher to post podcast links here.. but this WWP interview w Scotty Bowman is worth listening to, twice.

To say the least, he’s still sharp as ever.

The thing he said that stood out the most to me was the key to winning in today’s game. He said that in addition to great defensive play and goaltending...which are as critical as ever…having defensemen who can play like forwards as part of a 5-man unit (ala the Russian-5), while still being strong defensively, are the real key to today’s game.

I presume Steve, and Scotty, and JimmyD (who lives in Sarasota w Scotty) still talk a lot of hockey. The Scotty Build was 25yrs ago, but it’s still very much Yzerman’s DNA, and as much as the game’s changed, it hasn’t.

It had me reflecting on the ‘97 build, and watching all the playoff goals from the ‘97, ‘98 and ‘02 championships.
-97:
-98:
-02:

Goaltending’s goaltending. Those teams always had average to above average goaltending. In Cossa and/or Augustine, I am hoping we will have better. (Sidenote: watching all those old goals.. it’s crazy how much NHL goaltending has improved in the last 25yrs.. and easy to see why the Lidstrom-Rafalski two high point shot PP’s disappeared).

Defensively those teams generally had 3-4 All-Star level defensemen (Lidstrom-Murphy/Rafalski, Fetisov/Kronwall-Vlady/Chelios/Stuart), and a 3rd pair that wouldn’t kill you.

To Scotty’s point, with Seider, Edvinsson and presumably ASP, we’re off to a great start accumulating defensemen who can play like forwards and still be solid in their own zone. Is Johansson a top-4 guy or a Bob Rouse guy? I’m not sure…but in light of what Scotty said…I wouldn’t be opposed to drafting in the 1st or by other means acquiring another elite D talent.

Offensively, having watched a lot of these guys age into retirement.. you forget some things about them in 97/98. I forgot that Larionov was still an elite, all-star, PP1 level player on those teams. I forgot how talented Lapointe and Kozlov were in their Red Wings primes. And I forgot how offensively capable our grinders were in their youth, McCarty especially, but also Draper and Maltby, and even Kocur.

Just kind of looking at our rough outline now..

DeBrincat — Larkin — Raymond
??? — Nate/Kasper — ???
Buchelnikov — Nate/Kasper — MBN
Soderblom — ??? — Mazur

Without getting too into the weeds of comparing current player to 97 player.

The ‘97 team had more elite offensive talent. Fedorov, Yzerman, Shannahan. Raymond is the only guy we have with a chance of entering that realm. It’s very, very important that we spend our new FA dollars on at least two elite offensive players (Marner, Rantanen, Connor, etc.).

Are Larkin and DeBrincat as talented as Larionov and Kozlov? Sure. Could Buchelnikov be a Sandstrom-level player? Sure. Could MBN, Mazur and Soderblom be LaPointe, McCarty and Maltby/Kocur/Brown-level players? Sure. The only thing we’re really lacking —besides 2 elite scorers— is an elite FO and PK man like Draper. Still as valuable today as it was then.. and something we should be on the look for, for sure.

Click to read more...

 

[GoBoltz56]

So, defensemen who are good at defense AND can also put up points are important? What a great idea..let's just find or sign all the guys who are available to do that. They must be easily accessible.

 

[ElProfessor]

So, defensemen who are good at defense AND can also put up points are important? What a great idea..let's just find or sign all the guys who are available to do that. They must be easily accessible.

Well. We’ve spent a #6, a #6 and a #17 ovr pick on Exactly what Bowman is talking about thus far.

And we got by far the best two-way defenseman in each of those drafts. (Owen Power doesn’t have Edvinsson’s offense; Luke Hughes doesn’t have his defense).

…if you poll’d people here about what the most important thing was to building a championship team, I’m guessing about 90% would say two elite centers. Bowman is saying it’s 3 or 4 elite two-way DMen (and we might have 3 already).

I’m not really sure who or what you’re attempting to insult.. Scotty Bowman’s insights, or Yzerman for seemingly agreeing with them, or me for noticing??

But okay. Cheers.

 

[Henkka]

What is tough for that Bowman's 5-man-unit idea, is to have 3 defenceman pairs and 4 lines at Modern NHL. Usually the defensive pair is changing (impacted by Zone starts) and is different behind the forward line all the time.

So basicly, there are just 3-man units with forwards and 2-man units with defencemen.

If I remember right, last time we had anything comparable to this was at 2007-08 season. At some cases they did go:

Zeta - Dats - Homer
Kronwall - Stuart

Mule - Flip - Sammy
Lebda/Lilja - Chelios

Those were kind of 5-man units. Then Lidström-Rafalski was double-shifted behind 3-4 lines:

Cleary - Draper - Drake
Lidström - Rafalski

Hudler - Helm - McCarty/Maltby
Lidström - Rafalski

So in this kind of system your Top defensive pair had highest minutes, combined from playing behind 2 bottom6 lines. And Bottom6 lines had lowest minutes as single lines.

Then your Top line had highest forward minutes, and 2nd D-pair (pretty quality pair) had second-highest defensive minutes. Your 2nd line had 2nd highest forward minutes and 3rd pair had 3rd highest defenceman minutes.

In our future team, think Edvinsson-Seider could be this "lidström-rafalski" getting double-shifted behind the Bottom6. And X-Pellikka as 2nd pair and 3rd pair guys could be those pairs inserted behind Top line and 2nd line, to keep 5-man units together.

That's the structure.

 

[Air Budd Dwyer]

God, that 97 team was tough and really hard to play against. Shanahan, Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Maltby, Draper, Sandstrom, Konstantinov, and Rouse. All of those guys would make your life miserable.

Anyway, I think Bowman is spot on but it’s just so much more difficult to build a team in a cap league.

 

[Frk It]

God, that 97 team was tough and really hard to play against. Shanahan, Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Maltby, Draper, Sandstrom, Konstantinov, and Rouse. All of those guys would make your life miserable.

Anyway, I think Bowman is spot on but it’s just so much more difficult to build a team in a cap league.

Yeah, Yzerman is dealing with a totally different set of circumstances:

1) Pre-Cap vs Post-Cap
2) New lottery system that makes it harder to get premium picks
3) The rest of the league now scouts Russia/Sweden as much as the next team

That said, I am sure Yzerman and Bowman have some similar preferences with regards to building a team. I do like that we are getting back to being more of a puck possession team, like those 07-09 teams were.

 

[ElProfessor]

What is tough for that Bowman's 5-man-unit idea, is to have 3 defenceman pairs and 4 lines at Modern NHL. Usually the defensive pair is changing (impacted by Zone starts) and is different behind the forward line all the time.

So basicly, there are just 3-man units with forwards and 2-man units with defencemen.

If I remember right, last time we had anything comparable to this was at 2007-08 season. At some cases they did go:

Zeta - Dats - Homer
Kronwall - Stuart

Mule - Flip - Sammy
Lebda/Lilja - Chelios

Those were kind of 5-man units. Then Lidström-Rafalski was double-shifted behind 3-4 lines:

Cleary - Draper - Drake
Lidström - Rafalski

Hudler - Helm - McCarty/Maltby
Lidström - Rafalski

So in this kind of system your Top defensive pair had highest minutes, combined from playing behind 2 bottom6 lines. And Bottom6 lines had lowest minutes as single lines.

Then your Top line had highest forward minutes, and 2nd D-pair (pretty quality pair) had second-highest defensive minutes. Your 2nd line had 2nd highest forward minutes and 3rd pair had 3rd highest defenceman minutes.

In our future team, think Edvinsson-Seider could be this "lidström-rafalski" getting double-shifted behind the Bottom6. And X-Pellikka as 2nd pair and 3rd pair guys could be those pairs inserted behind Top line and 2nd line, to keep 5-man units together.

That's the structure.

I could be wrong. But listening to the interview, I didn't get the sense that he meant having the same literal "5-man units" on the ice together. I think he just meant having 5 guys out on the ice together who could operate as a 5-man unit. Defensemen who can attack with the puck and rotate into forward positions. Forwards who can drop back into defensive positions. 5 guys who can handle the puck, and pass, and rotate, and cut, and score; like a modern basketball team in a way...without giving up big chances the other way.

That's ^ how the Russian-5 played in 97. But even that yr, I don't think they were on the ice together more than 30% of the time. Scotty mixed and matched them with his North American players in an attempt to create 40+ minutes of that kind of play a game.

You watch some of those 97 highlights I posted, and after. It's pretty remarkable how seamlessly Vlady or Fetisov will rotate down into the corner, in front of the net and become a forward.. how seamlessly Fedorov or Larionov will replace them at the point and become a defenseman.

Like position-less hockey.

With Seider, Edvinsson, Johansson and ASP we definitely have players with the skill and intelligence and skating to operate similarly too. With Larkin, Kasper, Nate, MBN, Raymond, etc.. we're definitely putting together a very solid group of 2-way forwards who can drop back into defensive positions.

Need a little more elite offensive talent, hopefully via FA.

Need a little more grit.. Kasper growing up, Nate as well, MBN, Mazur, Soder getting meaner.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

God, that 97 team was tough and really hard to play against. Shanahan, Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Maltby, Draper, Sandstrom, Konstantinov, and Rouse. All of those guys would make your life miserable.

Anyway, I think Bowman is spot on but it’s just so much more difficult to build a team in a cap league.

What's funny is that if my memory is correct, they were considered a bit soft skill team. Hence the addition of Shanny and return of Kocur.

 

[SantosHalper]

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Found parts of how he remembered the trades ran opposite to what I have heard from people around the team at the time.

It was an awesome interview though, happy for the WWP. Always enjoy listening to them twice a week.

Was awesome listening to how he follows his grandchildren and the game still.

 

[ElProfessor]

What's funny is that if my memory is correct, they were considered a bit soft skill team. Hence the addition of Shanny and return of Kocur.

Before the Draper hit was avenged that was 100% our reputation.

Team of soft European skill players

Murphy was a big addition that yr too

 

[Winger98]

God, that 97 team was tough and really hard to play against. Shanahan, Kocur, McCarty, Lapointe, Maltby, Draper, Sandstrom, Konstantinov, and Rouse. All of those guys would make your life miserable.

Anyway, I think Bowman is spot on but it’s just so much more difficult to build a team in a cap league.

I miss that 97 team.

Before the Draper hit was avenged that was 100% our reputation.

Team of soft European skill players

Murphy was a big addition that yr too

yeah, I remember that Colorado game being the turning point. They had the pieces in place, but they believed in themselves after that. They got a swagger from it.