The Roster Thread, Summer 2024

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Rowley Birkin

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Oct 31, 2004
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My estimation of what happened, at the TDL, Adams didn't want to commit to Mitts (because of the timeline he had at the time) just as you said. And he probably felt good about that decision as he felt he had time to mature Krebs into the Mittelstadt role (3C), so he felt comfortable making that decision, as he made mention at the time of the TDL of putting more responsibility onto Krebs.

But then I think Terry and Adams talked closer to the end of the year, one of the important games between post-TDL and end of the season, where the leash got extremely tight and Adams seat had a massive increase of heat applied to it. Hence, why the presser of Granato's firing was a completely different tone and had a different sense of urgency to it.

I think if Adams of the TDL had the knowledge that today's Adams had, I think he commits to Mittelstadt and doesn't trade him. I think at the TDL, he most likely thought he had more time, and so he made a hockey trade to get something for Mittelstadt.
I disagree. You guys need to start giving Adams more credit. Whatever you might think of him/Pegula/this management group... Nobody at this level is incompetent to the degree they are made out to be on here.

The Mitts decision was two fold. One - Adams clearly didn't want to commit to paying a third, offensively biased centre big money, long term. It makes sense given what he's already commited to TT/Cozens, along with prospects he has in the system, combined with the long term salary / cap structure.

Secondly - he acquired a key piece in Byram. We'd clearly needed to make a big F for D hockey trade for a number of years - this was it. Don't act like Adams gave Mitts away for nothing or that he let him walk via UFA.

The Skinner buyout is unrelated, as is the Zucker signing. I'm not going to argue for buying out Skinner this summer as i believe it is a mistake - the biggest cap savings coming in a season where we won't use them, and seeing how he worked in Ruff's system would have been more worthwhile IMO. But i was not averse to a Skinner buyout further into the future when we will actually need the cap space.

But signing Zucker for one year is by no means an alternative to keeping Mitts, who was clearly not going to sign a one year deal. I doubt he'd have even signed the deal he did for Colorado. Adams MO seems to be locking his core players up long term, or moving on from them. And i can't really disagree with that strategy.
 
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Fjordy

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Jun 20, 2018
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I disagree. You guys need to start giving Adams more credit. Whatever you might think of him/Pegula/this management group... Nobody at this level is incompetent to the degree they are made out to be on here.

The Mitts decision was two fold. One - Adams clearly didn't want to commit to paying a third, offensively biased centre big money, long term. It makes sense given what he's already commited to TT/Cozens, along with prospects he has in the system, combined with the long term salary / cap structure.

Secondly - he acquired a key piece in Byram. We'd clearly needed to make a big F for D hockey trade for a number of years - this was it. Don't act like Adams gave Mitts away for nothing or that he let him walk via UFA.

The Skinner buyout is unrelated, as is the Zucker signing. I'm not going to argue for buying out Skinner this summer as i believe it is a mistake - the biggest cap savings coming in a season where we won't use them, and seeing how he worked in Ruff's system would have been more worthwhile IMO. But i was not averse to a Skinner buyout further into the future when we will actually need the cap space.

But signing Zucker for one year is by no means an alternative to keeping Mitts, who was clearly not going to sign a one year deal. I doubt he'd have even signed the deal he did for Colorado. Adams MO seems to be locking his core players up long term, or moving on from them. And i can't really disagree with that strategy.
Sorry, but I think you're talking complete nonsense trying to justify Adams in every way possible. And I also don't understand why we should trust Adams/Pegula if we don't make the playoffs every year.

Nowhere was it said that Mitts didn't want to sign here, on the contrary, he seemed to want to be in Buffalo, he has friends here, he has been here for many years and he had a great season. Then Byram wasn't even the type of defenseman we needed. He wanted to step out of the shadow of Makar and Toews and get a lot of PP time, but instead he ended up on a team with Dahlin and Power. Nothing against Byram, I hope he succeeds. But we lost our top 6 C and no one replaced him.

Zucker is Olofsson's replacement, I'm fine with that. But we haven't gotten a replacement for Mitts and Skinner yet. Every single year on this board before the season I say, "Kevyn Adams isn't finishing his job, he's not doing it completely." And we end up missing the playoffs every year. It's been like that for three years in a row.
 

Rowley Birkin

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Oct 31, 2004
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I expect RJ to start the season in Rochester and be in the mix if they need a call up.
From what I've seen I'm comfortable with having Johnson ahead of Bryson, and he obviously brings a different game to Gilbert. I could see him being a guy who they call up at some point & never send back down.

Jokiharju has to be the odd man out. Id be fine getting any type of asset/s for him, he's got to be worth a semi decent pick at the very least.
 

TageGod

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Aug 31, 2022
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Sorry, but I think you're talking complete nonsense trying to justify Adams in every way possible. And I also don't understand why we should trust Adams/Pegula if we don't make the playoffs every year.

Nowhere was it said that Mitts didn't want to sign here, on the contrary, he seemed to want to be in Buffalo, he has friends here, he has been here for many years and he had a great season. Then Byram wasn't even the type of defenseman we needed. He wanted to step out of the shadow of Makar and Toews and get a lot of PP time, but instead he ended up on a team with Dahlin and Power. Nothing against Byram, I hope he succeeds. But we lost our top 6 C and no one replaced him.

Zucker is Olofsson's replacement, I'm fine with that. But we haven't gotten a replacement for Mitts and Skinner yet. Every single year on this board before the season I say, "Kevyn Adams isn't finishing his job, he's not doing it completely." And we end up missing the playoffs every year. It's been like that for three years in a row.
Cozens is a player that will excel in structure. He is the 2C. Mitts long term was always the 3C. Yes we have not replaced Mitts.
From what I've seen I'm comfortable with having Johnson ahead of Bryson, and he obviously brings a different game to Gilbert. I could see him being a guy who they call up at some point & never send back down.

Jokiharju has to be the odd man out. Id be fine getting any type of asset/s for him, he's got to be worth a semi decent pick at the very least.
Ryan Johnson was our third best defensemen last year.
 

Fjordy

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Jun 20, 2018
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Cozens is a player that will excel in structure. He is the 2C. Mitts long term was always the 3C. Yes we have not replaced Mitts.
It doesn't matter, great teams can have three very good centers. Vegas has Eichel, Hertl, Wild Bill and Roy. We have Thompson, Cozens, Krebs and Lafferty. As they say, feel the difference.
 
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OkimLom

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May 3, 2010
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I disagree. You guys need to start giving Adams more credit. Whatever you might think of him/Pegula/this management group... Nobody at this level is incompetent to the degree they are made out to be on here.

My case of what happened with the Mitts situation, has nothing to do with incompetence. It has to do with a changing environment within the Sabres organization, and you could read that in the differences between the TDL presser, and the Granato-firing presser. Something within the organization changed. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt more than blaming him for an incompetent move.

The Mitts decision was two fold. One - Adams clearly didn't want to commit to paying a third, offensively biased centre big money, long term. It makes sense given what he's already commited to TT/Cozens, along with prospects he has in the system, combined with the long term salary / cap structure.

Mittelstadt was essentially was Buffalo's top center, in terms of responsibilities and matchups. He was very much more than a 3C in how he was used. Mittelstadt was productive and effective in that role. Adams looked at his salary structure, that he created (he didn't need to lock Cozens to the contract he did, but that was Adams' call) and most likely thought, like others have justified, in asking how much he wants invested in his top 3 centers (again something he could've factored in and worked in the Cozens deal). He also had a prospect he acquired that he needed to do something with, so, Thompson and Cozens get bumped up in responsibilities and roles, and Krebs slides into the Cozens role saving Adams money on the position. I understand if that was the case, but Adams' initial reaction to just lock players in on inflated contracts created that sort of mess.

Secondly - he acquired a key piece in Byram. We'd clearly needed to make a big F for D hockey trade for a number of years - this was it. Don't act like Adams gave Mitts away for nothing or that he let him walk via UFA.

Sabres needed to make a top 4 VET trade and free agent signing for years. The "Byram" role of youthful young defenseman to man PP duties, to be a catalyst in the transition game, was already taken by Dahlin and Power. Those are already locked in long term. Buffalo needed some veteran leadership on their backend. All Adams did was trade a RFA to be for another RFA to be with the need to make a financial decision to commit to a player back a year. The value of Mitts and Byram was fair in a vacuum. But he just moved the financial structure issues back to the backend, where you have a $11 million aav and a $8 million aav of two of your pillars on the defense. I would say that's a little more top heavy than the Forward financial structure.
 

joshjull

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Aug 2, 2005
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Hamburg,NY
he's a 1 year 825k player who could be in rochester and it isn't like he's a veteran nhler, he's played 82 games.

Local kid is the only reason, because it's all they have to sell right now.
Adams said he’ll be on the NHL roster. They want his size and toughness, in particular he’ll fight. Something Adams singled out when talking about him.
 

Rowley Birkin

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Oct 31, 2004
10,805
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Sorry, but I think you're talking complete nonsense trying to justify Adams in every way possible. And I also don't understand why we should trust Adams/Pegula if we don't make the playoffs every year.

Nowhere was it said that Mitts didn't want to sign here, on the contrary, he seemed to want to be in Buffalo, he has friends here, he has been here for many years and he had a great season. Then Byram wasn't even the type of defenseman we needed. He wanted to step out of the shadow of Makar and Toews and get a lot of PP time, but instead he ended up on a team with Dahlin and Power. Nothing against Byram, I hope he succeeds. But we lost our top 6 C and no one replaced him.

Zucker is Olofsson's replacement, I'm fine with that. But we haven't gotten a replacement for Mitts and Skinner yet. Every single year on this board before the season I say, "Kevyn Adams isn't finishing his job, he's not doing it completely." And we end up missing the playoffs every year. It's been like that for three years in a row.
You simply don't understand anything and constantly make knee jerk, over the top reactionary type posts which seem to be based on emotion rather than logic.

Where did i say that Mitts wasn't happy in Buffalo or that he didn't want to re-sign?

Byram wasn't the type of Dman YOU THOUGHT we needed. He was traded from Colorado because their need for a 2C was greater. We already had two guys ahead of him signed long term. Mitts was not a 'top 6C''. As a hockey trade, it made perfect sense.

Zucker is not Olofsson's 'replacement' . They didn't just pay him $5m as a UFA to sit in the press box the majority of nights.

We'll have 12 forwards signed to NHL contracts when the RFAs are resigned. Not to mention a large number of high profile prospects looking to eventually crack the team. Where is the space for all these extra players you're demanding we acquire? You couldn't f***ing answer that question yesterday & you won't be able to answer it now.
 
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OkimLom

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May 3, 2010
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Cozens is a player that will excel in structure. He is the 2C. Mitts long term was always the 3C. Yes we have not replaced Mitts.

Ryan Johnson was our third best defensemen last year.
Based on his play so far as a Buffalo Sabre, I think there's a greater case that can be made that he does better with less structure. Where Cozens gets in trouble, is when he has to think instead of relying on his instincts. I doubt Ruff will be able to coach him up to a level so quickly to get him to play instinctually "within the structure". Expect a slow start from Cozens and probably a few other players (like Thompson as well) as they get acclimated to a coaching staff that "holds them accountable" and teaches them to play a more rounded game.
 

WhereAreTheCookies

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Feb 16, 2022
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Peterka has proven to be just as effective on the top line as Skinner, but with more potential to improve as the kids still not even in his prime. This was going to force Skinner into a 2nd or 3rd line role, which as we've seen in the past is a role he is FAR less effective in. Zucker is likely to be more effective in a 2nd or 3rd line role than Skinner, just based on his usage historically. He still scored 14 goals last season playing less than 14 minutes a game while also being more physical in recent years (He had 200 hits in 22-23).

As for adding a top 6 wing and a 3C, who are you removing to add both? I can see room for 1 or the other but not both unless someone is moving out or you are sending someone useful to the pressbox.

JJP-Tage-Tuch
Zucker-Cozens-Quinn
Benson-Krebs-Greenway
Malenstyn-Lafferty-NAK

Who do you remove or how do you shuffle the forward core to make room for 2 players? KA didn't trade for Malenstyn and sign Lafferty and NAK to ride the press box. They have 2/3rds of what was one of the best 4th lines in the league last year. That's a 4th line that is going to piss off a lot of other teams and do a lot of the heavy lifting in the defensive zone.

I can see room to add 1 more forward to that group. Either a top 6 wing OR a 3C but not both. Ideally someone who could fill both roles but those players are hard to come by. Maybe injuries would force a roster spot to open up for a 13th forward, but I imagine that would be filled by Rousek or a call-up of Rosen, Kulich, Savoie or Ostlund.

Part of this is believing that the huge regression from Tage, Tuch and Cozens last year was a blip and not the norm moving forward. People want to count on UFA's or outside players coming in and producing at the same or higher level than they did last year on another team, while not believing that the returning players won't bounce back.

They were one of the highest scoring teams in the league in 22-23 and were one of the lowest last season. There's plenty of reason to believe they should settle somewhere between the two this season.

As for the defensive play, that was not as bad as people make it out to be. They allowed over 300 less shots on goal last season and improved their PK by 7%. That's roughly 4 less shots against per game year over year, and they were top 10 in the league in fewest shots allowed. Sure, they still have room to improve, but even if they don't, they were still good enough at suppressing shots to have allowed less than 23 other teams.

TLDR: Things are not as doom and gloom as some are making it out to be. Yes there is room for improvement, there always is, but they should have an actual system and more structure this season which I believe will help a lot.
 

Gabrielor

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Jun 28, 2011
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Buffalo, NY
Adams said he’ll be on the NHL roster. They want his size and toughness, in particular he’ll fight. Something Adams singled out when talking about him.
You realize what this means then? Either Ryan Johnson is getting cooked so extra, he'll be burnt and ashes....or....Adams.....has....to...make....a....tra......

...


.
..
...
..
.de?
 

joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
79,058
41,323
Hamburg,NY
Based on his play so far as a Buffalo Sabre, I think there's a greater case that can be made that he does better with less structure. Where Cozens gets in trouble, is when he has to think instead of relying on his instincts. I doubt Ruff will be able to coach him up to a level so quickly to get him to play instinctually "within the structure". Expect a slow start from Cozens and probably a few other players (like Thompson as well) as they get acclimated to a coaching staff that "holds them accountable" and teaches them to play a more rounded game.
Cozens played his best hockey during the few times Donny used him as a two way/matchup center. That usage plays to his natural instincts and he doesn’t have to think as much. Ruff plans on using him that way full time.
 

Fjordy

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Jun 20, 2018
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You simply don't understand anything and constantly make knee jerk, over the top reactionary type posts which seem to be based on emotion rather than logic.

Where did i say that Mitts wasn't happy in Buffalo or that he didn't want to re-sign?

Byram wasn't the type of Dman YOU THOUGHT we needed. He was traded from Colorado because their need for a 2C was greater. We already had two guys ahead of him signed long term. Mitts was not a 'top 6C''. As a hockey trade, it made perfect sense.

Zucker is not Olofsson's 'replacement' . They didn't just pay him $5m as a UFA to sit in the press box the majority of nights.

We'll have 12 forwards signed to NHL contracts when the RFAs are resigned. Not to mention a large number of high profile prospects looking to eventually crack the team. Where is the space for all these extra players you're demanding we acquire? You couldn't f***ing answer that question yesterday & you won't be able to answer it now.
So trading Mitts didn't make a lot of sense. Other teams pay their centers and have no problem with it. Because they understand that the center backbone of the team is very important, as we saw when Botterill traded ROR.

Why did Adams need Byram? We had Dahlin and Power, we had Sammy, Johnson had a good season, Jokiharju (who I supposedly underestimate) and Clifton. If we were going to need a defenseman, for me it would be someone like Pesce, Roy, DeMelo, that kind of guy, not Byram, IMO.

For me, he's more of an Olofsson replacement and we still need a top 6 forward.

We have a spot in the top 6 for a guy like Ehlers or someone like that, you can also trade players from the roster, including forwards. You can't just guarantee guys like NAK a roster spot and 82 games, you always need depth there.
 

Diaspora

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Jul 13, 2020
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Sorry, but I think you're talking complete nonsense trying to justify Adams in every way possible. And I also don't understand why we should trust Adams/Pegula if we don't make the playoffs every year.

Nowhere was it said that Mitts didn't want to sign here, on the contrary, he seemed to want to be in Buffalo, he has friends here, he has been here for many years and he had a great season. Then Byram wasn't even the type of defenseman we needed. He wanted to step out of the shadow of Makar and Toews and get a lot of PP time, but instead he ended up on a team with Dahlin and Power. Nothing against Byram, I hope he succeeds. But we lost our top 6 C and no one replaced him.

Zucker is Olofsson's replacement, I'm fine with that. But we haven't gotten a replacement for Mitts and Skinner yet. Every single year on this board before the season I say, "Kevyn Adams isn't finishing his job, he's not doing it completely." And we end up missing the playoffs every year. It's been like that for three years in a row.
Krueger fired in March 2021. In the three years since then, we've gone from 18-game losing streak to a bubble team. Let's not underestimate the differences in three years.

This year's edition promises a bottom-six that will likely be a strength rather than a glaring weakness, four defensemen that might actually spend time in the top-four of a playoff squad, two legitimate NHL goaltenders with a third in the wings, and an experienced coach that has taken several teams to conference finals appearances on numerous occasions. The pipeline continues to develop and might actually be able to provide some injury depth, if called upon.

On the whole, I'm pretty satisfied with where this team sits today in comparison with March 2021. There are still a ton of holes, but today's not the end of the story. This year is not the end of the story.
 

Fjordy

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Jun 20, 2018
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Krueger fired in March 2021. In the three years since then, we've gone from 18-game losing streak to a bubble team. Let's not underestimate the differences in three years.

This year's edition promises a bottom-six that will likely be a strength rather than a glaring weakness, four defensemen that might actually spend time in the top-four of a playoff squad, two legitimate NHL goaltenders with a third in the wings, and an experienced coach that has taken several teams to conference finals appearances on numerous occasions. The pipeline continues to develop and might actually be able to provide some injury depth, if called upon.

On the whole, I'm pretty satisfied with where this team sits today in comparison with March 2021. There are still a ton of holes, but today's not the end of the story. This year is not the end of the story.
Yes, and this team is still not in the playoffs. Last season was a regression, not a playoff as we expected. Again, I will say again that Adams does not finish his job, he takes risks and loses several seasons in a row. But if he had not taken risks, we would already be in the playoffs.
 

joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
79,058
41,323
Hamburg,NY
You realize what this means then? Either Ryan Johnson is getting cooked so extra, he'll be burnt and ashes....or....Adams.....has....to...make....a....tra......

...


.
..
...
..
.de?
It could lead to 1 of 3 things

1) Joker gets traded
2) Bryson starts with Amerks
3) We carry 8 dmen. Bwahahaha


Ryan Johnson is irrelevant to putting together the 7 dmen to start the season.
 
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TageGod

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Aug 31, 2022
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Peterka has proven to be just as effective on the top line as Skinner, but with more potential to improve as the kids still not even in his prime. This was going to force Skinner into a 2nd or 3rd line role, which as we've seen in the past is a role he is FAR less effective in. Zucker is likely to be more effective in a 2nd or 3rd line role than Skinner, just based on his usage historically. He still scored 14 goals last season playing less than 14 minutes a game while also being more physical in recent years (He had 200 hits in 22-23).

As for adding a top 6 wing and a 3C, who are you removing to add both? I can see room for 1 or the other but not both unless someone is moving out or you are sending someone useful to the pressbox.

JJP-Tage-Tuch
Zucker-Cozens-Quinn
Benson-Krebs-Greenway
Malenstyn-Lafferty-NAK

Who do you remove or how do you shuffle the forward core to make room for 2 players? KA didn't trade for Malenstyn and sign Lafferty and NAK to ride the press box. They have 2/3rds of what was one of the best 4th lines in the league last year. That's a 4th line that is going to piss off a lot of other teams and do a lot of the heavy lifting in the defensive zone.

I can see room to add 1 more forward to that group. Either a top 6 wing OR a 3C but not both. Ideally someone who could fill both roles but those players are hard to come by. Maybe injuries would force a roster spot to open up for a 13th forward, but I imagine that would be filled by Rousek or a call-up of Rosen, Kulich, Savoie or Ostlund.

Part of this is believing that the huge regression from Tage, Tuch and Cozens last year was a blip and not the norm moving forward. People want to count on UFA's or outside players coming in and producing at the same or higher level than they did last year on another team, while not believing that the returning players won't bounce back.

They were one of the highest scoring teams in the league in 22-23 and were one of the lowest last season. There's plenty of reason to believe they should settle somewhere between the two this season.

As for the defensive play, that was not as bad as people make it out to be. They allowed over 300 less shots on goal last season and improved their PK by 7%. That's roughly 4 less shots against per game year over year, and they were top 10 in the league in fewest shots allowed. Sure, they still have room to improve, but even if they don't, they were still good enough at suppressing shots to have allowed less than 23 other teams.

TLDR: Things are not as doom and gloom as some are making it out to be. Yes there is room for improvement, there always is, but they should have an actual system and more structure this season which I believe will help a lot.
They let in 30 less goals than Detroit too. This team is mostly fine it's just that 3C spot is too unknown and we need someone reliable. This is not the year to rely on youth there.
 
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Selanne00008

Registered User
Jun 2, 2006
5,068
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NYC - UES
Peterka has proven to be just as effective on the top line as Skinner, but with more potential to improve as the kids still not even in his prime. This was going to force Skinner into a 2nd or 3rd line role, which as we've seen in the past is a role he is FAR less effective in. Zucker is likely to be more effective in a 2nd or 3rd line role than Skinner, just based on his usage historically. He still scored 14 goals last season playing less than 14 minutes a game while also being more physical in recent years (He had 200 hits in 22-23).

As for adding a top 6 wing and a 3C, who are you removing to add both? I can see room for 1 or the other but not both unless someone is moving out or you are sending someone useful to the pressbox.

JJP-Tage-Tuch
Zucker-Cozens-Quinn
Benson-Krebs-Greenway
Malenstyn-Lafferty-NAK

Who do you remove or how do you shuffle the forward core to make room for 2 players? KA didn't trade for Malenstyn and sign Lafferty and NAK to ride the press box. They have 2/3rds of what was one of the best 4th lines in the league last year. That's a 4th line that is going to piss off a lot of other teams and do a lot of the heavy lifting in the defensive zone.

I can see room to add 1 more forward to that group. Either a top 6 wing OR a 3C but not both. Ideally someone who could fill both roles but those players are hard to come by. Maybe injuries would force a roster spot to open up for a 13th forward, but I imagine that would be filled by Rousek or a call-up of Rosen, Kulich, Savoie or Ostlund.

Part of this is believing that the huge regression from Tage, Tuch and Cozens last year was a blip and not the norm moving forward. People want to count on UFA's or outside players coming in and producing at the same or higher level than they did last year on another team, while not believing that the returning players won't bounce back.

They were one of the highest scoring teams in the league in 22-23 and were one of the lowest last season. There's plenty of reason to believe they should settle somewhere between the two this season.

As for the defensive play, that was not as bad as people make it out to be. They allowed over 300 less shots on goal last season and improved their PK by 7%. That's roughly 4 less shots against per game year over year, and they were top 10 in the league in fewest shots allowed. Sure, they still have room to improve, but even if they don't, they were still good enough at suppressing shots to have allowed less than 23 other teams.

TLDR: Things are not as doom and gloom as some are making it out to be. Yes there is room for improvement, there always is, but they should have an actual system and more structure this season which I believe will help a lot.

To the first bolded. Agreed. And to answer, you move krebs out and replacing a scoring 3C that can move UP the lineup would be the move I would potentially even overpay for.

I'd swap benson up to 2nd line wing and move Zucker down.

You have to imagine between these 4 players: Rosen, Kulich, Savoie or Ostlund; they are all NHl ready by 2025-2026, and if not all, then 3 of the 4. You also then have Helenius right behind them ready 2-3 years from now.

With the top 6 nearly all signed long-term, and Benson/JJP needing a contract soonish, where are all these scoring prospects going to play at all? We honestly can very easily move Krebs + Joki + Ostlund for a high end 3C. That type of offer should net something nice IMO.

Then next season fill in Zucker and Greenway's 3rd line wing roles with 2 of Savoie/Kulich/Rosen?

Edit: Doesnt have to be Ostlund that's moved. I'd personally rank them Savoie > Kulich > Ostlund > Rosen.
 
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