The roster construction is far too nonsensical for this team to be competitive.

[Frk It]

Let’s look at it from the top down, our top 6 is incredibly small, kane, debrincat, Raymond, these are all guys 5’11 and less. At least however guys like Raymond and debrincat will try to be physical. Then we have tank, compher and Larkin who is by far our best center. What’s the theme? All of these guys are either small, or unbelievably slow. With Larkin being the only exception. Combine this with our bottom 6, who are also extremely slow, but at least they have more size, yet they don’t use it! They play small despite having the size, like the mirror opposite of guys in our top 6. It’s just a horrible mismatch of players, and none of them really compliment each other what so ever. Ras and Copp provide 0 offense, Berggren is playing with “shut down” players. Motte and Fischer do the same thing and are redundant, veleno is replacement level but at least he can skate. I mean was any thought put into this?

Our defenseman are pretty self explanatory, outside of Ed and seider they are old and slow too, or just make crazy head scratching decisions like chiarot.

This is a team that is old and slow while seriously lacking in skill, and the guys that do have skill are all small and amongst each other on the same lines so they get killed on the forecheck and out muscled constantly. It just doesn’t make sense and is not a recipe for success as bad as lalonde is (Which I think he is, he’s never been able to get the team motivated). I just don’t see anyway this team is competing for the playoffs by the end of the year, even if it’s only game 4, I don’t see how even a coaching change can address the core issue the team has.

Couple things…

1) Everyone wants to be mad at having guys like Copp and Compher on the roster. Every team in the league would sign players like that if they had the holes at 2/3C we did and the amount of cap we did. Do you guys realize what would have been needed to make you happy? It would have required multiple off seasons of sitting on a plethora of cap and doing nothing and throwing rookies into the lineup as soon as possible. We would have issues if we went this route, it would just be a different set of issues.

2.) The size of the top 6 is an issue - I mean is it? Tampa Bay is rolling out Guentzel-Point-Kuch as their top line and they don’t seem too worried about it.

3.) Feel free to tell us where we are supposed to be getting these guys that are more big/fast/skilled from.

 

[lilidk]

The concern I have is Yzerman would really have to go against his history by bringing up several rookies at once next season. If he isn’t doing that, it means another offseason of adding mediocre vets. He needs to pick a direction at some point.

I expect him to bring Kasper at some point and play him 15-20 games, so next season he will not be rocky .
For next season , we need to see first who is ready. It's between Soderblom, Danielson, ASP, MBN Mazur and Cossa, probably only 2 of them will be with big team next season

 

[RedHawkDown]

We are 4 games into the season. Kapser just got called up. Take a breath.

I'm fine. I know we'll be where we were last year, most likely - on the cusp of a playoff berth and likely not making it in. It doesn't change any of my opinions on the roster construction, which is what this thread is about.

Couple things…

1) Everyone wants to be mad at having guys like Copp and Compher on the roster. Every team in the league would sign players like that if they had the holes at 2/3C we did and the amount of cap we did. Do you guys realize what would have been needed to make you happy? It would have required multiple off seasons of sitting on a plethora of cap and doing nothing and throwing rookies into the lineup as soon as possible. We would have issues if we went this route, it would just be a different set of issues.

2.) The size of the top 6 is an issue - I mean is it? Tampa Bay is rolling out Guentzel-Point-Kuch as their top line and they don’t seem too worried about it.

3.) Feel free to tell us where we are supposed to be getting these guys that are more big/fast/skilled from.

Teuvo Teravainen is fast and skilled signed with the 2nd-worst team in the NHL this offseason.

 

[Frk It]

I'm fine. I know we'll be where we were last year, most likely - on the cusp of a playoff berth and likely not making it in. It doesn't change any of my opinions on the roster construction, which is what this thread is about.

Yeah that’s fine, I just think there is the potential for a lot of things to change over the next 6 months vs where we are now. We could go on a winning streak, or stumble and give the young guys more or a look, or have people get hurt and give the young guys more of a look. It seems like people are suggesting in this thread how things are right now are how they’ll always be.

Teuvo Teravainen is fast and skilled signed with the 2nd-worst team in the NHL this offseason

I like him and would have signed him. But definitely another guy people would call small/soft.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Ok, insistence on what they should do is what I meant, regarding what you're saying here. I just don't see how it's likely... Larkin will have to maintain his level of play longer than the average top player and the Wings will need to luck into their contention window sooner than planned for that to work out.

It's not likely or unlikely - it's just that it's the only real option, unless we somehow magically find another 1C. The only path for the Wings to contend with the current set of prospects, young players, and Larkin/DBC is to try and graduate the prospects as soon as they're showing signs of being ready (as opposed to overcooking them) and see what they can become, hope that 1-3 of them knock it out of the park, and boom you've got a potential contender. If you wait to slowly infuse these kids over the next 5 years, even if they do knock it out of the park, you've lost, because you now don't have a 1C anymore and have a massive hole that prevents you from contending.

Yeah that’s fine, I just think there is the potential for a lot of things to change over the next 6 months vs where we are now. We could go on a winning streak, or stumble and give the young guys more or a look, or have people get hurt and give the young guys more of a look. It seems like people are suggesting in this thread how things are right now are how they’ll always be.



I like him and would have signed him. But definitely another guy people would call small/soft.

He is small and soft. He's still a better signing than Copp, Compher, Tarasenko, and essentially every single free agent Yzerman has signed in the last 3 years.

Yzerman's FA work has been among the worst in the NHL, if not the worst. People will say he doesn't want to give guys term, but he gave both Copp and Compher 5 years, Holl 3 years, Chiarot 4 years. He's fine with term - he's just given it to the wrong players. At some point, there has to be some accountability beyond excuses of "well we suck so we can only sign those bad players". Lots of shit teams, like Chicago, have signed much better players. Our pro scouting has been abysmal.

 

[Frk It]

It's not likely or unlikely - it's just that it's the only real option, unless we somehow magically find another 1C. The only path for the Wings to contend with the current set of prospects, young players, and Larkin/DBC is to try and graduate the prospects as soon as they're showing signs of being ready (as opposed to overcooking them) and see what they can become, hope that 1-3 of them knock it out of the park, and boom you've got a potential contender. If you wait to slowly infuse these kids over the next 5 years, even if they do knock it out of the park, you've lost, because you now don't have a 1C anymore and have a massive hole that prevents you from contending.


He is small and soft. He's still a better signing than Copp, Compher, Tarasenko, and essentially every single free agent Yzerman has signed in the last 3 years.

Yzerman's FA work has been among the worst in the NHL, if not the worst. People will say he doesn't want to give guys term, but he gave both Copp and Compher 5 years, Holl 3 years, Chiarot 4 years. He's fine with term - he's just given it to the wrong players. At some point, there has to be some accountability beyond excuses of "well we suck so we can only sign those bad players". Lots of shit teams, like Chicago, have signed much better players. Our pro scouting has been abysmal.

Maybe if you want to act like there haven’t been any good signings when there have been (Kane, Sprong, Ghost, Compher)

And act like those additions didn’t have us within 1 game of the playoffs last year.

Some of that comes down to perspective.

If you want to say we didn’t do a good enough job over this most recent off season, I have plenty of time for that. But it has not all been bad.

 

[RealGudDRW]

Have we traded for Tatar and Nyquist yet?

 

[RedHawkDown]

Maybe if you want to act like there haven’t been any good signings when there have been (Kane, Sprong, Ghost, Compher)

And act like those additions didn’t have us within 1 game of the playoffs last year.

Some of that comes down to perspective.

I would argue that some of those players are actually perfect examples of that terrible pro scouting. Sprong and Ghost were pretty solid for us, and we let them go and replaced them with worse players. Ghost to Gustafsson is a massive downgrade, and Sprong's offense in the bottom 6 has been replaced by plugs like Motte/Watson.

Kane came to Steve on a silver platter, and I personally don't even think he's a very good signing. I think the team defers to him way too much expecting him to be the player he was 4-5 years ago and the team has overall been worse since he arrived in the middle of the year last year, and that's carrying into this season so far. Compher is fine, but he's really the only one that's fine.

The Red Wings, despite having among the highest number of picks in the draft since 2019, have among the fewest games played by drafted players outside the 1st round since 2019 in the entire league. That is embarrassing for a rebuild.

 

[jaster]

It's not likely or unlikely - it's just that it's the only real option, unless we somehow magically find another 1C. The only path for the Wings to contend with the current set of prospects, young players, and Larkin/DBC is to try and graduate the prospects as soon as they're showing signs of being ready (as opposed to overcooking them) and see what they can become, hope that 1-3 of them knock it out of the park, and boom you've got a potential contender. If you wait to slowly infuse these kids over the next 5 years, even if they do knock it out of the park, you've lost, because you now don't have a 1C anymore and have a massive hole that prevents you from contending.

I'm not pushing back against the theory, I'm just not sure I see a window of time where, A) Larkin is still in his prime, and B) all our 19-23 year old talents are close enough to their prime to take us to contender status. Maybe in 4 years? Larkin will be 32 and hopefully still effective as a quasi-1C?

 

[RedHawkDown]

I'm not pushing back against the theory, I'm just not sure I see a window of time where, A) Larkin is still in his prime, and B) all our 19-23 year old talents are close enough to their prime to take us to contender status. Maybe in 4 years? Larkin will be 32 and hopefully still effective as a quasi-1C?

Here's a possible route, going back to 1-2 years ago:

Do not sign Holl. Do not trade for Petry. Do not sign Gustafsson this year. Do not sign Motte or Watson. Try to sign someone like Martinez as a placeholder or re-sign Ghost. Retain Sprong as good depth scoring. Sign Teravainen or someone similar this offseason instead of Motte and Tarasenko.

Bring up Kasper at the start of this season. Bring up Ed full-time last season so he can go through his growing pains then, bringing him into this season with ~50 games under his belt so we can see what he truly can be. Bring up Johansson full-time last season, let's assume he can develop into a reliable #4D. He/Ed were GR's best defensemen last year and there's no reason he should have been in the AHL all year. Give Mazur 30-40 games last year, so we can also see what we have in him, and hopefully he progresses enough to carve out a 3rd line role this year.

At the start of this year, my theorized roster has all of Kasper, Mazur, Johansson, and Edvinsson playing significant roles. Next year, I would bring in MBN, ASP, and Danielson, and give Cossa 20-30 games. Year after that, try to see what Buchelnikov has. That is a normal amount of rookies to add per year when you are a rebuilding team, not 0-1 as Yzerman has been doing.

Your 26-27 potentially "contending" roster:
MBN-Larkin-Raymond
DeBrincat-Kasper-Danielson
Teravainen-Compher-Buchelnikov
Rasmussen-Copp-Mazur
Veleno

Johansson-Seider
Edvinsson-ASP
Chiarot-UFA

Cossa
Augustine

In all of this, I fully admit that these rookies might flounder and shit the bed and bust. But that's the point - at each of these stages, they've all had 2-4 years playing pro hockey and are all above 20-21 years of age when they're brought in. There's no reason to be holding your top 10-15 picks back beyond that. They either have it at that point or they don't. And if they don't, you need to know sooner than later. If they do, you need to give them the chance to develop into those potential star players sooner than later, before the rest of your roster is too old to contend.

 

[Frk It]

It's not likely or unlikely - it's just that it's the only real option, unless we somehow magically find another 1C. The only path for the Wings to contend with the current set of prospects, young players, and Larkin/DBC is to try and graduate the prospects as soon as they're showing signs of being ready (as opposed to overcooking them) and see what they can become, hope that 1-3 of them knock it out of the park, and boom you've got a potential contender. If you wait to slowly infuse these kids over the next 5 years, even if they do knock it out of the park, you've lost, because you now don't have a 1C anymore and have a massive hole that prevents you from contending.

Is rushing players because of the age of Larkin worth it if it is not what is optimal for their development?

I would argue that some of those players are actually perfect examples of that terrible pro scouting. Sprong and Ghost were pretty solid for us, and we let them go and replaced them with worse players. Ghost to Gustafsson is a massive downgrade, and Sprong's offense in the bottom 6 has been replaced by plugs like Motte/Watson.

Kane came to Steve on a silver platter, and I personally don't even think he's a very good signing. I think the team defers to him way too much expecting him to be the player he was 4-5 years ago and the team has overall been worse since he arrived in the middle of the year last year, and that's carrying into this season so far. Compher is fine, but he's really the only one that's fine.

Seems like you want to discredit any good things he has done, which is your prerogative I guess.

I thought the 2023 off-season/free agent class was good. I think this 2024 off-season/free agent class was pretty underwhelming and disappointing. How he did not think upgrading the blue line was more of a necessity, I could not tell you. If he had Trouba trade as Plan A, and no Plan B, that was piss poor planning.

The Red Wings, despite having among the highest number of picks in the draft since 2019, have among the fewest games played by drafted players outside the 1st round since 2019 in the entire league. That is embarrassing for a rebuild.

Although you used a very selective criteria here, this is one of my biggest gripes with Yzerman. I have not liked the drafting in rounds 2-7 and I think we left a lot of meat on the bone as far as using the draft capital we have had. So I won't disagree too much here.

I will just remind you though that the goal is not to rush players into the league, it is to end up with quality players. Saying we have had the highest number of picks since 2019 would include drafts that are only like 1 or 2 years old, and are way too early to judge.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Couple things…

1) Everyone wants to be mad at having guys like Copp and Compher on the roster. Every team in the league would sign players like that if they had the holes at 2/3C we did and the amount of cap we did. Do you guys realize what would have been needed to make you happy? It would have required multiple off seasons of sitting on a plethora of cap and doing nothing and throwing rookies into the lineup as soon as possible. We would have issues if we went this route, it would just be a different set of issues.

2.) The size of the top 6 is an issue - I mean is it? Tampa Bay is rolling out Guentzel-Point-Kuch as their top line and they don’t seem too worried about it.

3.) Feel free to tell us where we are supposed to be getting these guys that are more big/fast/skilled from.

The top 6 is too small, meanwhile once a game we want to complete it at sub-six foot for all wingers by forcing Berggren in above lineup station.

With more talented young players we have watched Buffalo die on the vine with the play youth too early strategy.

We need to work more of it in the lineup, but the crowd that champions this moves on from the latest inserted prospect to the next guy overnight when we have these discussions.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Is rushing players because of the age of Larkin worth it if it is not what is optimal for their development?

I guess the baseline difference is that I would fundamentally disagree that it’s best for players development to slow cook them. I think after a year or two of pro play where you succeed in that pro league, your next place to learn is the NHL. And I’m not sure that the Red Wings track record in the last 15 years has shown that our slow cooking method works any better than bringing kids in the first year they’re ready.

 

[Winger98]

It wasn't long ago I was wading through post after post about how Larkin wasn't a 1C and we'd never win with him there. Now I'm reading we need to hurry up and try to win while we have Larkin because no other prospect we have can become a 1c that we can win with.

 

[lilidk]

I find the insistence that the Wings reach their contention window while Larkin is still in his prime... odd. Larkin is 28 already. How many more years will he be in his prime? How soon will we be contending?

The way I see it , our window is 7 years with cheap Seider contract . Larkin still our best forward, but his style of game doesn't let him be in his prime longer than 3-4 years from now.