The Real National Team Ranking

[hairylikebear]

The WHC happens four times more often than the Olympics, so Olympic medals should be worth at least four times as much. Any ranking that puts Canada anywhere but #1 is plain wrong.

The official IIHF ranking draws a lot of ire because it overemphasizes tournaments that are not best on best, but the purpose of the rankings is to determine qualifying for major tournaments. The countries that are actually affected by the rankings are the ones that are icing their best possible teams in these matches (with the rare exceptions of lower tier countries that have an NHL player or two, such as Slovenia and Kopitar). The US and Canada will never ever fail to qualify for any international tournament, so they have no reason to care about the rankings. The rest of the world actually sends their best to the WHC.

While Canada has a greater success in terms of winning big tourneys, we certainly have your number in the head to head games.

There's a reason head to head records are merely a tiebreaker in most leagues and have no actual affect on the standings outside of the win and loss awarded. It's somewhat interesting to look at, but the difference is while usually it's mainly Russia that beats Canada, there are lots of teams that beat Russia. Also including any WHC results in that is just plain biased. If it's not best on best throw it out. It doesn't matter how many times the Russian NT beats a bunch of Canadian beer leaguers, it doesn't make Russia as a whole better than Canada.

 

[Rob]

So using a football analogy

Canada is Spain.

Sweden is Brazil.

Russia is England.

 

[Salavat Yulaev]

All last year, and before the Olympics in February- there were countless Russian posters who said "Canada will be humbled and beaten in Russia, on the Big Ice, with their soft Goaltending". What happened in the end? (LOL). I will tell you what happened- Russia was humiliated on their own ice, making this poor mascot break down. What a shame for you to hurt your mascot this way Russia. Very pathetic that my memories of the Russian team in Sochi are summed up by this-

And did Canada defeated Russia in OG 2014?

Recent history shows that even worst Russian team ever that was defeated even by Germans found some resourses and have beaten Canada

 

[ViD]

don't do that to yourself....

what? I gave straight facts. Russia IS better than Canada when it comes down to playing head to head. There's no rebuttal to that.

 

[Garl]

OK, let's try to be accurate

Between 2 Olympics, there are 4 WC's. So let's give OG medals value of 4 WC medals.

WC Gold-3, WC Silver-2, WC Bronze-1

By that system:

Since 2010

Canada-24
Sweden-15
Finland-14
USA-9
Russia-8
Czech.Rep-4
Switzerland-2
Slovakia-2

Victories from 00's are irrelevant, and the generation that won them is mostly retired.

Now, I don't like the fact that Olympics bronze values higher than WC Gold. So if we would multiple Olympic bonus by 3 instead of 4, then all positions will remain the same except for USA and Russia.

 

[Garl]

what? I gave straight facts. Russia IS better than Canada when it comes down to playing head to head. There's no rebuttal to that.

WC's almost never have a top canadian roster.
On the other hand, it's strange that given their depth, Canada manages to lose with 100% NHL teams in 1/4 for 5 straight years. They are almost like England in soccer.

 

[BobDobolina]

Canada
Sweden
USA
Russia
Finland
Czech
Slovakia/Switzerland

 

[Incognito]

what? I gave straight facts. Russia IS better than Canada when it comes down to playing head to head. There's no rebuttal to that.

1998 Olympics (did not play one another)
2002 Olympics (did not play one another)
2004 World Cup (Canada 3 – Russia 1)
2006 Olympics (Russia 2 – Canada 0)
2010 Olympics (Canada 7 – Russia 3)
2014 Olympics (did not play one another)

So since 1998 (when NHLers came into Olympic competition), the two nations have met up three times in best-on-best competition. In those, Canada is 2-1 against Russia, with a +4 GF/GA differential. Given this record, I fail to see how Russia has Canada's number by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[ViD]

1998 Olympics (did not play one another)
2002 Olympics (did not play one another)
2004 World Cup (Canada 3 – Russia 1)
2006 Olympics (Russia 2 – Canada 0)
2010 Olympics (Canada 7 – Russia 3)
2014 Olympics (did not play one another)

So since 1998 (when NHLers came into Olympic competition), the two nations have met up three times in best-on-best competition. In those, Canada is 2-1 against Russia, with a +4 GF/GA differential. Given this record, I fail to see how Russia has Canada's number by any stretch of the imagination.

if you don't consider WHC, we don't consider WC because noone in Russia cares about it

it's a pathetic tournament to please North American public.

 

[Den]

So using a football analogy

Canada is Spain.

Sweden is Brazil.

Russia is England.

Sweden - Brazil? Ouch... France at most

 

[Incognito]

if you don't consider WHC, we don't consider WC because noone in Russia cares about it

it's a pathetic tournament to please North American public.

Okay, fine. The difference between the World Cup and the World Championship is that the former is best-on-best while the latter is a second rate tournament that many players either can't participate in due to the NHL playoffs or flat-out reject their invitation to because they'd rather rest after a long 82+ game season. But regardless, if you want to discount the World Cup, then Canada and Russia are still 1-1 against each other in best-on-best competition since 1998. My point was that your claim of Russia dominating head-to-head play against Canada is untrue.

 

[Den]

Okay, fine. The difference between the World Cup and the World Championship is that the former is best-on-best

Well, Conf. Cup is best on the best in football, and yet many people don't know what it is.

It was interesting in the Cold War, but now .... phhhh

 

[SwissLeaf]

I think we should consider the IIHF WC of 2013 only!

 

[jnt88]

The US and Canada will never ever fail to qualify for any international tournament, so they have no reason to care about the rankings. The rest of the world actually sends their best to the WHC.

You don't think other countries are icing B, C, and even D-teams? e.g. Finland had 2 NHL skaters in this WHC.

 

[Jablkon]

Minus a Hasek like goalie performance, Canada should be Golden/dominant until at least 2020.

Minus Hasek - what a joke. But of course why not to show up bit of arrogance. At least you should think what would "Minus Crosby" mean for Canada....

 

[hairylikebear]

You don't think other countries are icing B, C, and even D-teams? e.g. Finland had 2 NHL skaters in this WHC.

This always happens in Olympics years because players don't want to play in 2 international tournaments in one year, and they would prefer, I assume, for younger guys to get that experience in the lesser tournaments.

Still, I'm not suggesting that any team is bringing their absolute best; not even Russia does that. But compared to USA/Canada who did not bring a single Sochi Olympian between them, Finland is putting in a little more effort. Jokinen, Komarov, Lehtera, Kontiola, Hietanen, and Immonen all played in both tournaments.

 

[jnt88]

Still, I'm not suggesting that any team is bringing their absolute best; not even Russia does that.

Yeah, allright. You had me confused when you said '"the rest of the world actually sends their best to the WHC".

 

[Kharkov]

Canada is way ahead of Russia. Completely different level. Either one accepts this or he dont, and if he dont he either has bad memory or low self esteem.

 

[Neinri]

I think Sweden and Finland will be there, the Swedes always had a lot of talent and I'd be surprised if that wouldn't be the case still, just wait for the next big wave of it. Both teams were excellent in the World Juniors this time around too. Finland though hasn't really been the skillful team in the past either, they had that one good scoring line and a lot of work ethic. That way they won't be the next number one but they'll keep challenging regardless as they always are.

Other than that the sad truth is that the kids that started playing hockey in the Soviet Union or in Czechoslovakia form the last great generation in those successor states, for the ones that came after them during the financially tough 1990's hockey was just too expensive and the whole production collapsed. They'll have their comeback still, but that'll take another 5-10 years.

So unless Sweden can surprise it'll be between the North Americans the next several years, interesting to see whether they'll stay humble enough to properly develop their own systems meanwhile for in that sense the future generations in Europe will be competitive.

I think this is one of the fairest and best analysis in such a few sentences I have read in a long time

 

[FinPanda]

1. Canada
2. Sweden
3. Finland
4. USA
5. Russia

 

[MTLAzzurri]

[mod]

Russia's glory days are over OP. Until your country manages to fix the tournaments again so Canada's best players cannot compete, Canada will continue dominating best on best tournaments.

Enjoy watching us win gold in South Korea.

 

[Yamaguchi*]

1 Canada

2 Finland

3 Sweden

4 Russia

5 USA

 

[hairylikebear]

Yeah, allright. You had me confused when you said '"the rest of the world actually sends their best to the WHC".

Right. The best they can send is the best out of the group of players eligible to go. You can't say Finland didn't send their best because they didn't bring Rask or Selanne or Timmonen. Those players are contractually prevented from going. Canada, however, has players that are eliminated from the playoffs that are allowed to participate, they just turned the invitation down for whatever reason. Therefore, Canada did not send their best. I should have said "the best players they could" but I thought that was implied because I was talking about countries' actual desire to do well in the tournament and not theoretical teams.

"Absolute" is an adjective that removes the prior restriction. A country's "absolute best" would be the best 22 players they have.

I'll admit my word choice was poor, but I hope this clarification helps.

 

[Kharkov]

Most criticized choices for Finland were FEL choices. Also there were some FEL players who declined.

 

[Macman]

1. Canada
2. Sweden
3. Finland
4. USA
5. Russia

Exactly right. The gap between Canada and Russia is sizeable right now. The difference on the blueline in particular is more like a gulf but things change.