OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Super Bowl? Thats like a giant pot of chips or popcorn right?

[CheckingLineCenter]

Perhaps I’m just giving you the deserved retort on your whataboutism arguments? In your mind it’s perfectly reasonable to straight up compare a salary that averages 3.3 years (average NFL career length) to one of a person (college grad) whose career will likely span 30-40 years? My point was why not make your argument even more absurd that it already is?

I’m just saying that for a college RB, making league minimum in the NFL for even just 1-2 years is so lucrative compared to their alternative job prospects that there will never be a shortage of talent trying to break in at the RB position.

Thus limiting the bargaining power of the current in place talent.

Ergo my disagreement that things will change under the current model. The solvable problem isn't how decision makers value the position, it's how the NFL's pay system allows them to execute that.

The way to solve it is get rid of the cap but then that crushes the teams that aren’t as big. I don’t see a good solution where everyone wins tbh.

Edit- This is kind of how a free market works though, some companies/products/people are more valuable financially than others and are compensated/priced more and more efficiently over time. Said item/company/person needs to be changed or adapted or the market must change for that valuation to move.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

But it's star RBs we're talking about, right? Nobody seems up in arms about whether James Conner makes enough.

As long as that exists and it's being based on low existing RB pay, there's no way for their market to bounce back just based on market conditions. It's not that teams won't pay more, look at NYG making a better offer to Barkley before tagging him, but as long as they can tag cheaply, why not? Is it all that surprising or unusual that of the tags this year, half went to RBs, and only the RBs will play (or not) on theirs?

What it'd require is RBs being more valued as players... but how does that happen in a passing league where they're injured a ton and have the shortest shelf life?

I don’t see how this market ever resets itself until a Marshall Faulk type player comes around and is a major reason why a team wins a SB.

I doubt anyone could reel off the starting RBs of the last five SB winners.

Until that changes, why would owners value these guys?

Just how the league is now.

 

[Peat]

The way to solve it is get rid of the cap but then that crushes the teams that aren’t as big. I don’t see a good solution where everyone wins tbh.

Edit- This is kind of how a free market works though, some companies/products/people are more valuable financially than others and are compensated/priced more and more efficiently over time. Said item/company/person needs to be changed or adapted or the market must change for that valuation to move.

How is it a free market?

The first four years of a good NFL player's career, they have no control of where they play or how much they make. That's all set by the league and teams. Then come the fifth year options and franchise tags.

If it was a genuinely free market, I think RB pay would be treated very differently. If NYG are willing to give 10m to Barkley now, what would they have given after he put up a 5 yard per carry average and 721 receiving yards in his very first year? Hell, what teams have given Barkley for him to sign with them full stop?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

How is it a free market?

It’s not a free market, I was comparing the efficiency of the two markets, which is similar. Poorly worded.

 

[Peat]

It’s not a free market, I was comparing the efficiency of the two markets, which is similar. Poorly worded.

I presume that by efficient you mean that the money goes to the best players in terms of making a difference rather than the classical tradition of transparency?

If so, I am very skeptical due to the existence of rookie contracts. I think that creates a large and gaping inefficiency in how money is funneled to the players, which manifests itself most in how difficult it is for teams to win with a rookie QB vs a non-rookie but there's a bunch of other ways too.

I also think that the money being agreed up front when there is such a huge variety in performance is rather inefficient.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I really don't get the issue.

The running backs are simply a microcosm of how we treat players in the NFL overall.

Players are disposable.

Their careers average a year and a half.

And since we found out about CTE we basically accepted the Faustian bargain of paying players millions for a few short years of making huge salaries and a shortened lifetime of disability for many of them.

So we are now upset because Running Backs are disposable because they have especially short productive years?

That is no different than most other players in the NFL.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Thing is, I don't really believe in either. I don't believe it's a dinosaur position and I don't think anyone is going to create a super team out of 27/28 year old running backs as things stand. If it was a dinosaur position I don't think we'd have seen two RBs go in the top 15, and I think the physical limitations of the position are even more of a definite than that.

I think it comes down solely to a situation where the economics of the NFL screw RBs far, far harder than anyone else. They are the position that suffers the most from their first 4/5 years being immensely devalued, and the position that suffers most from the franchise tag, and the position that has the least to gain from going to market at 27.

Ergo my disagreement that things will change under the current model. The solvable problem isn't how decision makers value the position, it's how the NFL's pay system allows them to execute that.

I think we're looking at this the wrong way in terms of their "value". Believe it's less about it being a passing league and moreso GM's are finally becoming attuned to the short shelf life of an NFL RB.

So the value has decreased due to short shelf life, not performance. Also, teams have also seen that having RB depth is a better predictor of playoff success vs having that bell cow back.

The best analogy I can think of is would you rather buy a $400k Lambo that historically will only last 5 years. Or would you rather have a couple Cadillacs at $100k that will last about 5 years? Teams are drifting towards the latter.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Does anyone want to take up a collection for Barkley? I hope he can afford to live day to day

Saquon signs new deal, ends Giants stalemate

The Giants announced Tuesday that RB Saquon Barkley had signed his franchise tag, which sources tell ESPN was adjusted to add up-front money and incentives.

www.espn.com

 

[Harvey Birdman]

AR2 basically said he feels lucky Tomlin wants to be the coach of his org - which is comical, but the only opinion that matters is his so, long story short, Tomlin isn’t going anywhere.

If Kenny Pickett flounders and is not the QB solution I really hope this organization doesn't stick by Tomlin. I am not saying Pickett's success or failure is only hinged on Tomlin. But what I mean if he fails to be our organizational starter. That should be a mile marker in the road that's a point of no return. Because then at that point you have to look at the entire roster being turned over. And Tomlin for all his faults, is a coach that can draw blood from stone, and if we have to do an entire roster flip post a Kenny Pickett failure. He will draw just enough out of the roster to keep us out of the top of the draft. I have had my problems with Tomlin, my gripes and complaints, even a flip out screaming at the tv moments which I am sure we all have. But he is a very capable coach, I do not think he is one of the very best like a lot of national media likes to place him upon a pedestal kind of good. But he is if you want to break coaches down in to three tiers. Good, average, and bad. He is at the top of that average pool or the bottom of the good pool. And I say again if this team has to go full rebuild post Kenny Pickett. He needs to be moved on from.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

If Kenny Pickett flounders and is not the QB solution I really hope this organization doesn't stick by Tomlin. I am not saying Pickett's success or failure is only hinged on Tomlin. But what I mean if he fails to be our organizational starter. That should be a mile marker in the road that's a point of no return. Because then at that point you have to look at the entire roster being turned over. And Tomlin for all his faults, is a coach that can draw blood from stone, and if we have to do an entire roster flip post a Kenny Pickett failure. He will draw just enough out of the roster to keep us out of the top of the draft. I have had my problems with Tomlin, my gripes and complaints, even a flip out screaming at the tv moments which I am sure we all have. But he is a very capable coach, I do not think he is one of the very best like a lot of national media likes to place him upon a pedestal kind of good. But he is if you want to break coaches down in to three tiers. Good, average, and bad. He is at the top of that average pool or the bottom of the good pool. And I say again if this team has to go full rebuild post Kenny Pickett. He needs to be moved on from.

I try to be as fair as possible with Tomlin, but it’s comical how he’s perceived given his lack of playoff success and the endless excuses that wouldn’t fly in any other org.

I’m so weary of discussing it though, because it’s an endless loop that AR2 all but confirmed will never close until Tomlin wants to leave.

On the flip side, if KP becomes a good-elite QB and this team starts having playoff success again, Tomlin will deserve major props.

He drafted him, made the bold call in the Jets game to start him, and had the wisdom to let KP go through his growing pains.

It will also mean Tomlin opened up the playbook for KP and let him run the offense - be it this year or whenever (again this is under the future assumption KP has become a franchise guy).

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

If Kenny Pickett flounders and is not the QB solution I really hope this organization doesn't stick by Tomlin. I am not saying Pickett's success or failure is only hinged on Tomlin. But what I mean if he fails to be our organizational starter. That should be a mile marker in the road that's a point of no return. Because then at that point you have to look at the entire roster being turned over. And Tomlin for all his faults, is a coach that can draw blood from stone, and if we have to do an entire roster flip post a Kenny Pickett failure. He will draw just enough out of the roster to keep us out of the top of the draft. I have had my problems with Tomlin, my gripes and complaints, even a flip out screaming at the tv moments which I am sure we all have. But he is a very capable coach, I do not think he is one of the very best like a lot of national media likes to place him upon a pedestal kind of good. But he is if you want to break coaches down in to three tiers. Good, average, and bad. He is at the top of that average pool or the bottom of the good pool. And I say again if this team has to go full rebuild post Kenny Pickett. He needs to be moved on from.

I'm probably the #1 Hate Tomlin Fan Club, but I agree an inflection point is coming with KP.

If KP flops in the next 2 years, there will be zero excuses for Tomlin. Even his ardent supporters wouldn't be able to make a case for him

If KP/team succeeds, then Tomlin rightfully should be talked about as a very good HC.

I'd love to be wrong, but Tomlin has proven time and time again what he is: a good RS coach that can't adjust to the intricacies of playoff football. And his failure to surround himself with established/competent coordinators will be his downfall.

Let's hope I"m just a nitwit on a message board...

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I am no fan of Tomlin.

But to hinge his wagon entirely to KP defying the odds is ridiculous.

And let's face it, if KP becomes a star franchise QB it would be exactly that, defying the odds and expectations. Most would be thrilled with him becoming an average starting QB.

There are a myriad of other reasons to hate on Tomlin. From his stubbornness and inability to learn from repeated mistakes to hiring, and sticking with, loser staff like Canada. And even then, he does not completely suck as a coach.

Tomlin is hopelessly average, and incapable of learning to enter a tier above average.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I am no fan of Tomlin.

But to hinge his wagon entirely to KP defying the odds is ridiculous.

And let's face it, if KP becomes a star franchise QB it would be exactly that, defying the odds and expectations. Most would be thrilled with him becoming an average starting QB.

There are a myriad of other reasons to hate on Tomlin. From his stubbornness and inability to learn from repeated mistakes to hiring, and sticking with, loser staff like Canada. And even then, he does not completely suck as a coach.

Tomlin is hopelessly average, and incapable of learning to enter a tier above average.

If KP defies the odds and becomes a good-elite QB, then Tomlin should get a ton of credit for that, as KP wasn't some can't miss top 5 pick.

While plenty of that would be on KP's will to become great and his work ethic, a big portion of that will no doubt be because of how Tomlin developed him.

If KP fails and Tomlin keeps this epic playoff failure streak going, then it should be time to move on from him.

They won't, but the excuse train won't jive just because KP wasn't some high end prospect.

This is an end results business, not a "woulda shoulda" business.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I am no fan of Tomlin.

But to hinge his wagon entirely to KP defying the odds is ridiculous.

And let's face it, if KP becomes a star franchise QB it would be exactly that, defying the odds and expectations. Most would be thrilled with him becoming an average starting QB.

There are a myriad of other reasons to hate on Tomlin. From his stubbornness and inability to learn from repeated mistakes to hiring, and sticking with, loser staff like Canada. And even then, he does not completely suck as a coach.

Tomlin is hopelessly average, and incapable of learning to enter a tier above average.

Perhaps we are defining "success" differently?

Success to me means winning a damn playoff game in the next 2 years. That is a reasonable expectation and not "defying the odds" in regards to KP.

And you bring up Canada. Well he's tangiently related to Tomlin (who he hand-picked). So much like Shere/Bylsma, Tomlin has tied his boat to Canada. We all certainly hope that boat doesn't sink

Interesting ruling on the Flores lawsuit

Judge won't budge on allowing Flores suit to trial

A federal judge said Tuesday that she's not changing her decision to let Brian Flores put the league and three of its teams on trial over his claims that he and other Black coaches face discrimination.

www.espn.com

 

[OnMyOwn]

Not sure what it’ll take to change the National narrative, but in most everyone’s eyes, Tomlin is a top 3 coach in this league.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Not sure what it’ll take to change the National narrative, but in most everyone’s eyes, Tomlin is a top 3 coach in this league.

It's a catch 22.

He's viewed that way only because he's been around so long, but he would have never lasted this long in another org.

So it's a circle jerk of sorts where AR2 is fed this BS by the national media and it emboldens him to keep following the Steelers Way, which keeps Tomlin around without accountability, which fools the national media into thinking he's an elite coach.

Round and round it goes.

I don't think it's unfair to expect a playoff win, given the talent and money spent on the roster.

If Tomlin is a top 3 coach, shouldn't he be able to win a playoff game with a young and talented roster?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

It's a catch 22.

He's viewed that way only because he's been around so long, but he would have never lasted this long in another org.

So it's a circle jerk of sorts where AR2 is fed this BS by the national media and it emboldens him to keep following the Steelers Way, which keeps Tomlin around without accountability, which fools the national media into thinking he's an elite coach.

Round and round it goes.

I don't think it's unfair to expect a playoff win, given the talent and money spent on the roster.

If Tomlin is a top 3 coach, shouldn't he be able to win a playoff game with a young and talented roster?

So many analogies for Tomlin, including his NHL cohort Mike Sullivan.

5 years between playoffs wins. Noll did that twice, at the end of his career. Cowher had one drought of 4 years.

And now Tomlin owns the mark all his own with 6+ years. Put another way, since his last trip to the SB, Tomlin has gone 5 years before winning another playoff game, and now 6 and counting. There are few teams that would still be employing him.

The difference between Tomlin and Marvin Lewis or Mike McCarthy is mainly the team they inherited. No one even whispers the latter two in the HOF.

 

[OnMyOwn]

It's a catch 22.

He's viewed that way only because he's been around so long, but he would have never lasted this long in another org.

So it's a circle jerk of sorts where AR2 is fed this BS by the national media and it emboldens him to keep following the Steelers Way, which keeps Tomlin around without accountability, which fools the national media into thinking he's an elite coach.

Round and round it goes.

I don't think it's unfair to expect a playoff win, given the talent and money spent on the roster.

If Tomlin is a top 3 coach, shouldn't he be able to win a playoff game with a young and talented roster?

This is absolutely the year to prove something. If KP plays well, that is.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So many analogies for Tomlin, including his NHL cohort Mike Sullivan.

5 years between playoffs wins. Noll did that twice, at the end of his career. Cowher had one drought of 4 years.

And now Tomlin owns the mark all his own with 6+ years. Put another way, since his last trip to the SB, Tomlin has gone 5 years before winning another playoff game, and now 6 and counting. There are few teams that would still be employing him.

The difference between Tomlin and Marvin Lewis or Mike McCarthy is mainly the team they inherited. No one even whispers the latter two in the HOF.

Ya, like I said it’s tiresome talking about how Tomlin lives in a bubble other coaches don’t get to enjoy.

With the new ranking article out it’s inevitable we discuss it, but after AR2 said he doesn’t judge Tomlin’s performance as a coach and is just happy he’s the Steelers coach, there seems little point in fooling ourselves about the situation.

I’ll still criticize Tomlin when he does Tomlin stuff, but living in a fantasy world where AR2 will ever hold Tomlin accountable is for people who don’t live in reality.

 

[tom_servo]

Ya, like I said it’s tiresome talking about how Tomlin lives in a bubble other coaches don’t get to enjoy.

With the new ranking article out it’s inevitable we discuss it, but after AR2 said he doesn’t judge Tomlin’s performance as a coach and is just happy he’s the Steelers coach, there seems little point in fooling ourselves about the situation.

I’ll still criticize Tomlin when he does Tomlin stuff, but living in a fantasy world where AR2 will ever hold Tomlin accountable is for people who don’t live in reality.

I spent too long wondering why Allen Robinson II would have any say in the matter.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Its a Qb league if your Qb has a ceiling of Alex Smith Kirk Cousins your going to struggle. I think you can win with Kenny I think he can be Neil Odonold with an offense that uses tons of miss direction play action but on paper he is the worst Qb in the division and isn’t in the 20 in the nfl.
A successful season to me is 11 wins and a playoff win this season

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Its a Qb league if your Qb has a ceiling of Alex Smith Kirk Cousins your going to struggle. I think you can win with Kenny I think he can be Neil Odonold with an offense that uses tons of miss direction play action but on paper he is the worst Qb in the division and isn’t in the 20 in the nfl.
A successful season to me is 11 wins and a playoff win this season

Btw- you can remove your avatar . Appreciate you playing along

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Its a Qb league if your Qb has a ceiling of Alex Smith Kirk Cousins your going to struggle. I think you can win with Kenny I think he can be Neil Odonold with an offense that uses tons of miss direction play action but on paper he is the worst Qb in the division and isn’t in the 20 in the nfl.
A successful season to me is 11 wins and a playoff win this season

Putting aside the terrible QB comparisons, as KP’s play style is nothing like any of the QBs you mentioned, the Steelers division holding them back seems like yet another excuse.

Tomlin historically owns LJ, a rookie KP has already beaten Watson, and the Steelers managed to topple Cincy with a journeyman QB last season.

Winning the North may be difficult, but there is no legit excuse why they can’t secure one of the three wildcard spots.

This org has invested heavily in their D which should be the unit leading the way and I’ve been told Tomlin is a defensive savant so… shouldn’t this unit be a powerhouse?

Kahn also invested substantial monetary and draft capital in fixing the o-line.

The skill positions are filled with good young players on rookie deals.

I don’t see any legit excuses why Tomlin can’t win a playoff game this season.

Isn’t that what we should expect from a “top 3 coach” with an expensive D and an O filled with talented young guys?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

JPJ signs his contract.
NFLPA tried to argue that he was actually a 1st round due to the Miami pick forfeiture

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

JPJ signs his contract.
NFLPA tried to argue that he was actually a 1st round due to the Miami pick forfeiture

Just using whatever agency the system allows on the players' behalf.