OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Sneaking up onto training camp

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WickedWrister

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People are gonna mention the penalties with regards to what CLC said but here's the thing for me -

This team isn't looking at those plays and going "damn, we can really cook people doing this, let's try and set this up again soon".

They're going "okay, don't panic, just make sure we get 3".

The big explosive plays are only really coming out of the bag when they've run out of options too. That huge throw to Pickens vs the Falcons? Had to throw it if you wanted a FG. That huge throw to Pickens vs the Broncos that gets called back? 3rd and 18.

There's very little appetite for trying to set up one of those big throws on 1st down, which would also maybe be the tendency buster that allows the team to start getting run success on those early downs.

This is all stuff that goes back years so I'm not going to blame Smith and Fields. This is the Pittsburgh Steelers' preferred identity as of the moment. Maybe this'll finally be the year that the offence wins Tomlin's trust and gets told to act like a normal offence all the time but I'm not holding my breath.


edit: p.s. The Ringer is talking about where this season's Steelers stand against the entirety of last season's Steelers, not the first two games. Two different kettle of fish But you can also completely ignore everything the quoted text says about this season's Steelers vs last year's Steelers and look solely at where this season's Steelers ranks vs the rest of the NFL this season and it's still tremendously ugly.
Maybe it's cope but I think there is a legitimate argument to be made that taking 10 penalties on offense through 2 games makes it impossible to evaluate any offense. Holding penalties were one of my biggest concerns after we brought in two mobile QBs that love to break contain and drafted a bunch of rookie linemen. Saw it on the 50 yarder to Pickens that got called back for holding by Broderick Jones. It's just really hard for guys to stay disciplined on those plays.

Despite the lack of explosive plays, I'm not that bothered that this team has a pretty low early down passing rate. Like you said, it just hasn't been this organizations philosophy besides a couple of late career Big Ben seasons. You can have a good offense while still running the ball a lot if you're just efficient on those early downs, which we haven't been. We have the most rushing attempts in the league but the 3rd fewest rush EPA, which is pretty wild.

Like I do think Arthur Smith actually wants to push the ball down the field more than just on 3rd and long scenarios, we just haven't been in enough advantageous situations because of all the penalties and ineffective early down runs. His whole thing in Tennessee was getting defenses to crowd the box to defend the run and then hit them with the play action pass, we just haven't been able to establish that first part on a consistent enough basis.
 
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WickedWrister

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Do you believe, despite the mistakes (mainly Jones shitting the bed), that this line is markedly better than last year?

Only difference thus far being 3 rookies added to the lot and a new offensive scheme. Cuz I do...by a wide margin. I don't care if they give up 7 sacks, the difference to me is they are still moving the needle in other ways. Frazier in the run game...sight for sore eyes. Mistakes will come, but wow is this night and day difference. If Jones isn't so bad thus far, this line would grade out markedly better.
It's been 2 games, I don't know yet. I think it has the potential to be given the draft capital we've invested compared to years past, but I honestly don't think the line was that bad last year, especially towards the end of the season running the ball.

Frazier is obviously a clear upgrade over Cole.

Cautiously optimistic about Fautanu but I want to see him go against some of the better edge rushers and DE first.
 

Peat

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Maybe it's cope but I think there is a legitimate argument to be made that taking 10 penalties on offense through 2 games makes it impossible to evaluate any offense. Holding penalties were one of my biggest concerns after we brought in two mobile QBs that love to break contain and drafted a bunch of rookie linemen. Saw it on the 50 yarder to Pickens that got called back for holding by Broderick Jones. It's just really hard for guys to stay disciplined on those plays.

Despite the lack of explosive plays, I'm not that bothered that this team has a pretty low early down passing rate. Like you said, it just hasn't been this organizations philosophy besides a couple of late career Big Ben seasons. You can have a good offense while still running the ball a lot if you're just efficient on those early downs, which we haven't been. We have the most rushing attempts in the league but the 3rd fewest rush EPA, which is pretty wild.

Like I do think Arthur Smith actually wants to push the ball down the field more than just on 3rd and long scenarios, we just haven't been in enough advantageous situations because of all the penalties and ineffective early down runs. His whole thing in Tennessee was getting defenses to crowd the box to defend the run and then hit them with the play action pass, we just haven't been able to establish that first part on a consistent enough basis.

Well, here's the team's drives in terms of penalties, potentially explosive plays, and good first downs (I picked 2nd and 6 as a representing a good first down that could spring an explosive play as Pro Football Reference gives a 40% gain on first down as a successful play, defining explosive as 20 yard or deep target on PRF's play by play, which I'm not happy with as I don't think deep is 20+ for them but sometimes I can't find out what exactly it was).


Drive 1 vs ATL - No penalties, no EPs, three first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 2 vs ATL - No penalties, no EPs, three first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 3 vs ATL - 2 penalties, one EP, three first downs, 2 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 4 vs ATL - No penalties, one EP, three first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 5 vs ATL - No penalties, no EP, one first down, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 6 vs ATL - No penalties, one EP, three first downs, 2 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 7 vs ATL - 2 penalties, one EP, two first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 8 vs ATL - 1 penalty, no EP, five first downs, 2 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 9 vs ATL - No penalties, no EP, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 10 vs ATL - No penalties, no EP, two first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better

So most drives vs ATL there wasn't a penalty. Remove the offset penalty on drive 8 and that's 8 out of 10 drives without losing any yards to a penalty. There were a lot of penalties but given how they were bunched up, most drives were fine.

There were four attempts at generating an explosive play. Drive 3's EP came after a Van Jefferson penalty leads to 3rd and 9. Drive 4's is the deep ball thrown on 1st down to set up the field goal at the end of the first half. Drive 6's is an incomplete deep ball thrown to Pickens on 2nd and 1. Drive 7's is the 40 yard deep ball thrown to Pickens on 1st down.

There were ten successful plays on 1st down, but only one of them resulted in an attempt at an explosive play.

So in the Atlanta game, I don't think attempts at explosive plays were being held back by penalties because 8 out of 10 drives weren't impeded by penalties, or by a lack of success on first down because they didn't do bad there. They just didn't try many and half the time they did it was because they were out of options.


Drive 1 vs DEN - No penalties, no EPs, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 2 vs DEN - No penalties, no EPs, six first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 3 vs DEN - 3 penalties, 1 EP, five first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 4 vs DEN - 1 penalty, 1 EP, four first downs, 2 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 5 vs DEN - No penalties, no EPs, two first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 6 vs DEN - No penalties, 1 EP, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 7 vs DEN - No penalties, 1 EP, two first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 8 vs DEN - 1 penalty, 1 EP, two first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 9 vs DEN - 1 penalty, no EP, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 10 vs DEN - No penalty, 1 EP, two first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 11 vs DEN - No penalty, no EP, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better

So very different game. 5/11 drives with a penalty losing yards.

Six attempts at generating an explosive play. Drive 3 is that Fields dart called back for the Jones hold after Jones other penalties put them on 3rd and 18. Drive 4 is a 27 yarder to Van Jefferson that draws DPI after Warren sets up 2nd and 6. Drive 6 is an incomplete to Van Jefferson on 3rd and 8. Drive 7 is a 37 yarder to Pickens that draws DPI on 1st and 10. Drive 8 is a deep to Austin on a 3rd and 12 caused by a Heyward holding penalty. Drive 10 is a deep to Austin on 3rd and 3 that draws an unnecessary roughness penalty.

Only four successful first down plays (yikes) and only one of them sets up an explosive play attempt. But we still get more explosive plays over all. Part of that is deliberate because they knew this reffing crew called a lot of DPI and wanted to cash in. Part of that I think is they kept getting in holes, partly due to penalties and partly due to just not being very successful on first down.

I don't want to average them out because I feel like an average of two very different games isn't all that useful.

But I feel like that in both games, it consistently looks like penalties lead to more deep shots than less, and that they're not using successful first downs to set up deep shots all that often. They use their run first tendency to set up the deep shot, occasionally but it doesn't seem to matter if its successful and they run it from first down a fair amount anyway. I think it's fair to say that. It mightn't be fair to judge what the offence could be based on sloppy execution, but I think it's fair to judge on what they're trying to do and I don't think the penalties and stuffed first downs are what's keeping the explosive plays down. Touchdowns maybe, but not explosive plays. I overstated where they are on the explosive plays now that I look at the facts but I do think that the problem isn't the execution.

And I think the problem is they just didn't want to all that much. That they would rather avoid the turnover risk and just grind it up the field because they believe that gives them a better chance of winning.

Maybe it changes. I really hope so. But that's the problem I see.


edit: And that's a far longer reply than I thought it would be. Your point seemed legitimate but at the same time it just didn't seem right from what I remembered, so I thought I'd look at what broke down when.
 
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JTG

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I think Field-Pickens relationship and camaraderie is enough to keep Fields the starter. Those two are bound to go off soon, I think.
 

JTG

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I was looking at draft prospect rankings to kind of figure out if I'm going to catch a college game this weekend.

Kenneth Grant - DT - Michigan
6'3 and floats between 330-350. Some reports I have seen listed him at 360. He runs a sub-5 40 yard dash and is said to be a freak in the weight room. Most reports are saying he's is a 3-tech in a 4-3 and a 5-tech in a 3-4.

Haloti Ngata 2.0 incoming.

This draft class has freakish defensive linemen.
 

Buddy Bizarre

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Jul 9, 2021
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Well, here's the team's drives in terms of penalties, potentially explosive plays, and good first downs (I picked 2nd and 6 as a representing a good first down that could spring an explosive play as Pro Football Reference gives a 40% gain on first down as a successful play, defining explosive as 20 yard or deep target on PRF's play by play, which I'm not happy with as I don't think deep is 20+ for them but sometimes I can't find out what exactly it was).


Drive 1 vs ATL - No penalties, no EPs, three first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 2 vs ATL - No penalties, no EPs, three first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 3 vs ATL - 2 penalties, one EP, three first downs, 2 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 4 vs ATL - No penalties, one EP, three first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 5 vs ATL - No penalties, no EP, one first down, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 6 vs ATL - No penalties, one EP, three first downs, 2 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 7 vs ATL - 2 penalties, one EP, two first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 8 vs ATL - 1 penalty, no EP, five first downs, 2 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 9 vs ATL - No penalties, no EP, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 10 vs ATL - No penalties, no EP, two first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better

So most drives vs ATL there wasn't a penalty. Remove the offset penalty on drive 8 and that's 8 out of 10 drives without losing any yards to a penalty. There were a lot of penalties but given how they were bunched up, most drives were fine.

There were four attempts at generating an explosive play. Drive 3's EP came after a Van Jefferson penalty leads to 3rd and 9. Drive 4's is the deep ball thrown on 1st down to set up the field goal at the end of the first half. Drive 6's is an incomplete deep ball thrown to Pickens on 2nd and 1. Drive 7's is the 40 yard deep ball thrown to Pickens on 1st down.

There were ten successful plays on 1st down, but only one of them resulted in an attempt at an explosive play.

So in the Atlanta game, I don't think attempts at explosive plays were being held back by penalties because 8 out of 10 drives weren't impeded by penalties, or by a lack of success on first down because they didn't do bad there. They just didn't try many and half the time they did it was because they were out of options.


Drive 1 vs DEN - No penalties, no EPs, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 2 vs DEN - No penalties, no EPs, six first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 3 vs DEN - 3 penalties, 1 EP, five first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 4 vs DEN - 1 penalty, 1 EP, four first downs, 2 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 5 vs DEN - No penalties, no EPs, two first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 6 vs DEN - No penalties, 1 EP, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 7 vs DEN - No penalties, 1 EP, two first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 8 vs DEN - 1 penalty, 1 EP, two first downs, 1 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 9 vs DEN - 1 penalty, no EP, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 10 vs DEN - No penalty, 1 EP, two first downs, no 2nd and 6 or better
Drive 11 vs DEN - No penalty, no EP, one first down, no 2nd and 6 or better

So very different game. 5/11 drives with a penalty losing yards.

Six attempts at generating an explosive play. Drive 3 is that Fields dart called back for the Jones hold after Jones other penalties put them on 3rd and 18. Drive 4 is a 27 yarder to Van Jefferson that draws DPI after Warren sets up 2nd and 6. Drive 6 is an incomplete to Van Jefferson on 3rd and 8. Drive 7 is a 37 yarder to Pickens that draws DPI on 1st and 10. Drive 8 is a deep to Austin on a 3rd and 12 caused by a Heyward holding penalty. Drive 10 is a deep to Austin on 3rd and 3 that draws an unnecessary roughness penalty.

Only four successful first down plays (yikes) and only one of them sets up an explosive play attempt. But we still get more explosive plays over all. Part of that is deliberate because they knew this reffing crew called a lot of DPI and wanted to cash in. Part of that I think is they kept getting in holes, partly due to penalties and partly due to just not being very successful on first down.

I don't want to average them out because I feel like an average of two very different games isn't all that useful.

But I feel like that in both games, it consistently looks like penalties lead to more deep shots than less, and that they're not using successful first downs to set up deep shots all that often. They use their run first tendency to set up the deep shot, occasionally but it doesn't seem to matter if its successful and they run it from first down a fair amount anyway. I think it's fair to say that. It mightn't be fair to judge what the offence could be based on sloppy execution, but I think it's fair to judge on what they're trying to do and I don't think the penalties and stuffed first downs are what's keeping the explosive plays down. Touchdowns maybe, but not explosive plays. I overstated where they are on the explosive plays now that I look at the facts but I do think that the problem isn't the execution.

And I think the problem is they just didn't want to all that much. That they would rather avoid the turnover risk and just grind it up the field because they believe that gives them a better chance of winning.

Maybe it changes. I really hope so. But that's the problem I see.


edit: And that's a far longer reply than I thought it would be. Your point seemed legitimate but at the same time it just didn't seem right from what I remembered, so I thought I'd look at what broke down when.

Nice breakdown, but at the end of the day we only have 2 games this season of sample size.

The Chargers' Oline and Dline are the best we'll have faced so far so it should give us a good idea where this team is at in the trenches.
 

Pens1566

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I think Field-Pickens relationship and camaraderie is enough to keep Fields the starter. Those two are bound to go off soon, I think.

It does seem like they should be an almost perfect match given their skillsets/specialties.
 

Double-Shift Lasse

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Arm strength and deep ball accuracy was never an issue for Fields. I'm not saying it isn't nice to watch or a benefit to the team, but for Fields to really take a step, quick (even pre-snap) reads and short-to-medium depth accuracy needs to be on display.
 
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