OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Sneaking up onto training camp

[T1K]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1836069136222286034

Good thread on Pickens

 

[WickedWrister]

Like I said earlier, Tomlin only cares about wins, losses and turnovers. Fields is completing 70% of his passes, the team is 2-0, and he hasn't turned the ball over. He's not losing the starting job until one of those things changes.

 

[T1K]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1836075411249180899

 

[xlm34]

When it comes to starting Wilson, I think most people’s realistic best case scenario is that he is what he was in Denver last year. It’s not a perfect way to go about it, but based on his per attempt averages last year with Fields’ pass attempts this year, Wilson would be at 297 yards and 2.5 TDs.

I’m probably biased since I’m not a big Wilson fan, but I just don’t see the upside with Wilson to justify benching a potential long term solution in Fields at this point in the season. Especially when the team is winning.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

When it comes to starting Wilson, I think most people’s realistic best case scenario is that he is what he was in Denver last year. It’s not a perfect way to go about it, but based on his per attempt averages last year with Fields’ pass attempts this year, Wilson would be at 297 yards and 2.5 TDs.

I’m probably biased since I’m not a big Wilson fan, but I just don’t see the upside with Wilson to justify benching a potential long term solution in Fields at this point in the season. Especially when the team is winning.

Any notion of Fields being a long term solution (miniscule to begin with) was crushed for me in the 2nd half Sunday.

Dude missed SO many open receivers. Like not inaccurate but never saw them. It left the window for a bad team to hang around and start to move the ball.

What happens vs a good team?

 

[T1K]

Something that has been getting overlooked is that Fields also has 84 rushing yards. Those are big for sustaining drives.

 

[Peat]

i think it comes down to ...
1. do you think his flaws will be corrected faster with him playing, or in practices. bad habits tend to be easier to fix in practice, to get to the place you don't need to think about it. imo

If Wilson can give more to the offence, that's more important than what improves Fields quickest.

Fields had a great first half vs the Broncos. But then the Broncos adapted to take away the run and all of a sudden, the Steelers couldn't get up the field.

If Wilson can bring in a better short/intermediate passing game to counteract that, that'd make a big difference. I'm not sure Wilson is that guy but unless Fields plays a great game vs the Chargers, I don't see a reason not to try. Maybe I would if I thought Fields was playing well or a potential long term solution, but I don't and I don't.

 

[T1K]

Any notion of Fields being a long term solution (miniscule to begin with) was crushed for me in the 2nd half Sunday.

Dude missed SO many open receivers. Like not inaccurate but never saw them. It left the window for a bad team to hang around and start to move the ball.

What happens vs a good team?

How many attempts did he even have in the 2nd half?

If Wilson can give more to the offence, that's more important than what improves Fields quickest.

Fields had a great first half vs the Broncos. But then the Broncos adapted to take away the run and all of a sudden, the Steelers couldn't get up the field.

If Wilson can bring in a better short/intermediate passing game to counteract that, that'd make a big difference. I'm not sure Wilson is that guy but unless Fields plays a great game vs the Chargers, I don't see a reason not to try. Maybe I would if I thought Fields was playing well or a potential long term solution, but I don't and I don't.

I find it pretty ironic you’re being so impatient with Fields. You sure have changed your tune from last year.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Having watched the games, how is this a no brainer?

Benching a QB kills his confidence. They’re people, not robots.

I assume that just means that whoever is making the decision will not be using a brain to do so.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I do not think fields has played that well tbh

I don't see a basis for arguing that, outside of looking at purely passing yards.

If you look at passing stats for this year around the NFL, Fields is ranking above average in a vast majority of them:

2024 NFL Passing | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2024 NFL Passing Stats and more on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

Completion%, int%, Success% (passes that gain 40% of yards on 1st down, 60% of yards on 2nd down and 100% of yards on 3rd and 4th down), AY/A, passer rating and ANYA/A are all above average, with him usually ranking in the 11-15 range. His passing yards are low because he has only thrown the ball 43 times in 2 games, which is 29th in the NFL.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Like I said earlier, Tomlin only cares about wins, losses and turnovers.

And only about turnovers as it relates to the first two things.

Yet you say that like it' a bad thing.

 

[T1K]

And only about turnovers as it relates to the first two things.

Yet you say that like it' a bad thing.

The turnover differential is one of the most crucial stats when it comes to W/L

 

[Empoleon8771]

Any notion of Fields being a long term solution (miniscule to begin with) was crushed for me in the 2nd half Sunday.

Dude missed SO many open receivers. Like not inaccurate but never saw them. It left the window for a bad team to hang around and start to move the ball.

What happens vs a good team?

Fields literally threw the ball 7 times in the second half last week (excluding plays that were cancelled out due to penalties), and they were pretty much all in 2nd and long or 3rd and long because of the horrendous running game they were getting on 1st down.

Here were his passing attempts in the second half of that game:

-9 yard completion to Freiermuth on 2nd and 7
-Incompletion on 2nd and 10 (thrown away due to a sack on this one I believe)
-Incompletion on 3rd and 10 (deep throw to Pickens)
-Incompletion on 3rd and 8 (deep throw to Jefferson)
-5 yard completion to Freiermuth on 2nd and 8
-Incompletion on 3rd and 12 (middle/deep throw to Austin)
-Incompletion on 1st and 10 (short to Pickens)

Fields objectively did not "miss so many open receivers" in that second half. He was taking a bunch of deep shots because the running game was getting completely stuffed on 1st down. He was inaccurate on those deep balls, which is why I did criticize him after the game for that inaccuracy, but to claim that he was "missing so many open receivers" is just false.

 

[Peat]

I don't see a basis for arguing that, outside of looking at purely passing yards.

The argument against Fields isn't about the passing attempts he's made, it's about all the passing attempts he hasn't made because he either didn't see them quick enough or isn't trusted enough to be told to make them.

Those passes he's not attempting are killing drives and are a big part of why the team's scoring is as low as it is. As long as it continues, I don't see it in Fields - not unless his big play is out there so consistently it doesn't matter. But it hasn't been. Probably never will be on this team.

 

[WickedWrister]

I'm not even thinking about the long term. None of these guys are under contract beyond this year. Maybe I'm biased because I just want things to work out, but the failure on offense feels different than last year. More self inflicted wounds than pure incompetence. I can sort of see the vision if I squint really hard.

If the source I'm looking at is accurate, we're the 2nd most penalized team in the league. Like how are you supposed to sustain drives and score points when you commit 3 false starts, 5 offensive holdings, and 2 OPI in 2 games? Maybe the elite offensive teams can overcome a 1st and 20, but we can't.

And only about turnovers as it relates to the first two things.

Yet you say that like it' a bad thing.

Not at all. We lead the league in that turnover differential already at +5. It's one of the biggest reasons we're 2-0 lol.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The argument against Fields isn't about the passes he's made, it's about all the passes he hasn't made because he either didn't see them quick enough or isn't trusted enough to be told to make them.

Those passes he's not making are killing drives and are a big part of why the team's scoring is as low as it is. As long as it continues, I don't see it in Fields - not unless his big play is out there so consistently it doesn't matter. But it hasn't been. Probably never will be on this team.

You are going to need to provide some receipts for this because I simply do not see this as being the case.

This idea that Fields is missing wide open receivers is simply not something I'm seeing nor is it something I'm seeing being suggested from anyone but a few people here.

I'm not going to argue Fields has been doing anything but playing smart and efficient football, but some of the comments made in here about him missing open guys is simply not something I'm seeing. The WRs on this team (outside of Pickens) are absolutely horrendous at winning matchups and getting open, hence why a huge majority of their passing yards are to Pickens. I have not even remotely seen any footage or proof for this idea that Fields isn't hitting open targets, whether it be from him missing passes or him not identifying open guys.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

No clue on total dropbacks but Fields attempted 8 passes and completed 3 for 16 yards in the 2nd half.

There is more but here are 3 examples.

Misses wide open Pickens (have to anticipate this and hit it if you want to play in this league. IDC about the pass rush— this is a possible TD)



Misses Muth



Misses muth



When they drop back to pass - it is not going well— even relative to the worse passing #s we are seeing in the NFL

 

[Empoleon8771]

No clue on total dropbacks but Fields attempted 8 passes and completed 3 for 16 yards in the 2nd half.

There is more but here are 3 examples.

Misses wide open Pickens (have to anticipate this and hit it if you want to play in this league. IDC about the pass rush— this is a possible TD)



Misses Muth



Misses muth



When they drop back to pass - it is not going well— even relative to worse-passing NFL

Okay I was incorrect, only the first play there was in the first half. The other two were in the second half.

The throw to Pickens, I'll give you that one as Fields missing an open guy. The second one, Freiermuth was absolutely not open there and calling that missing an open guy is completely disingenuous.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

So Fields missed a bunch of wide open guys in the second half against the Broncos because of misses he had in the first half?

Literally every play you posted was from the first half of that game.

I forgot to quote T1K and you. Too many links. I was just giving his 2nd half numbers in response to T1K

and was responding to you wanting receipts

Dude is not a good passer. Art hasn’t been amazing but those are all big plays left on the table.

 

[WickedWrister]

No clue on total dropbacks but Fields attempted 8 passes and completed 3 for 16 yards in the 2nd half.

There is more but here are 3 examples.

Misses wide open Pickens (have to anticipate this and hit it if you want to play in this league. IDC about the pass rush— this is a possible TD)

What are you trying to demonstrate with this first play? There is a free rusher and he does anticipate it - by electing to run and pick up 16 yards and the first down.

 

[T1K]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1836080602166022171

 

[Empoleon8771]

I forgot to quote T1K and you. Too many links. I was just giving his 2nd half numbers in response to T1K

and was responding to you wanting receipts

Dude is not a good passer. Art hasn’t been amazing but those are all big plays left on the table.

I will give you that miss to Pickens as legit, he tried to fit it into an extremely small window and hit Pickens rather than hitting an open Freiermuth. I think that one is legitimate.

The other two, I just don't agree with. On the first play, Fields turned that into a 15 yard run, so I have a really tough time being mad at him for not throwing it. On the last one, I don't think Freiermuth was any more open than Jefferson there. He should have gone towards Freiermuth there because Freiermuth was covered by a LB (I believe) rather than a CB and I think he would have been more likely to catch it, but at the time of the throw I don't think Freiermuth was any more open.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

What are you trying to demonstrate with this first play? There is a free rusher and he does anticipate it - by electing to run and pick up 16 yards and the first down.

That’s kind of the point.

Listen I defended him week 1 in a similar situation but this is so wide open. And that’s the problem: It’s 16 yard run where he’s got to evade defenders vs a 30 plus chunk play. One is a lot more repeatable than the other.

Does he need to take a hit to make the throw? Probably. But hit this man! (I know it’s super blurry so if you want to look yourself I’m screenshotting the 0:03 mark). That’s really not a big ask. The free rusher wouldn’t be able to get there if he throws with anticipation and the whole reason the pressure affects the play and he has to run is because he held the ball. They also know the rusher is coming pre-snap. You know you have to get it out. Play is just a good microcosm of why I don’t see him as a future option. Top tier QB makes the D pay for that blitz.

 

[Peat]

You are going to need to provide some receipts for this because I simply do not see this as being the case.

This idea that Fields is missing wide open receivers is simply not something I'm seeing nor is it something I'm seeing being suggested from anyone but a few people here.

I'm not going to argue Fields has been doing anything but playing smart and efficient football, but some of the comments made in here about him missing open guys is simply not something I'm seeing. The WRs on this team (outside of Pickens) are absolutely horrendous at winning matchups and getting open, hence why a huge majority of their passing yards are to Pickens. I have not even remotely seen any footage or proof for this idea that Fields isn't hitting open targets, whether it be from him missing passes or him not identifying open guys.

It's all over the QB breakdown videos from week one. We'll see what comes from week two, but I see CLC has already posted a bunch of clips.

I'd also say that the week one stats says that the Steelers pass catchers were in the top third of open. We'll see what week two says but given that Frazier has said the Steelers saw a lot of six man pressures in the second half, I'm guessing there's going to be guys open. So I don't think this is entirely on the rest of the Steelers either.

 

[T1K]

That’s kind of the point.

Listen I defended him week 1 in a similar situation but this is so wide open. And that’s the problem: It’s 16 yard run where he’s got to evade defenders vs a 30 plus chunk play. One is a lot more repeatable than the other.

Does he need to take a hit to make the throw? Probably. But hit this man! (I know it’s super blurry so if you want to look yourself I’m screenshotting the 0:03 mark). That’s really not a big ask. The free rusher wouldn’t be able to get there if he throws with anticipation and the whole reason the pressure affects the play and he has to run is because he held the ball.

View attachment 907503

We’ll see what QB school’s opinion is when he does the breakdown of this play. He’s very critical of these sorts of things. Personally I don’t have a problem with his decision making here.