OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Off Season We dont need a QB Edition

[Peat]

How many times did they hype up Rudolph and say they had a 1st round grade on him, though? That's how Rudolph panned out but I don't believe they only drafted him to be a backup.



Tbh what those rankings tell me is that Sanders is a late 1st round talent that should be going right about where the Steelers 1st will be. Which kinda matches with the vibe I've gotten, he's a guy that should be going in the 20-30 range in this draft.

Yup. Although obviously it gets different and weird with QBs and the idea they'll go early and all that.

Doesn't help with the Pickett vibes I'm getting here. There's so much match up imo. Average arm strength, pocket presence issues, lot of intangibles praise... Sanders is more accurate (probably), Pickett was more athletic, but they seem to add up to the same high floor, low ceiling prospect (only the pocket presence thing is actually pretty rough for floor).

And I still believe Pickett should have gone better here, but I don't really want a redo.

 

[JTG]

Having a second round grade is different than prospect rankings. There may only be 10-15 players with first round grades this year. Also I would note that PFF has Sanders at #45

I have been trying to say this, but for some reason couldn't explain it well enough, but I think you have done a better job. Drafts may not have 32 guys that have the talent indicative of a first round pick. Some drafts have a bunch of guys evenly ranked throughout (like last year). Some drafts tank after the first few. This one you want picks because there are some really deep classes and super talented guys will go really late.

Even if we do take a QB this draft, it's not a horrible pick...we could totally use the guy. I take issue with WHERE we are talking about taking one. They should be drafting a QB in 2 out of the next 3 drafts.

 

[xlm34]

Albert Breer is pretty plugged into the draft and had this to say about how Sanders is viewed:

I’m having a really hard time finding coaches or scouts who believe Sanders is a first-round talent. This, by the way, is separate from any issue anyone has with his personality. Those questions exist, but lots of teams have made exceptions in that department in the past to take on guys with special talents.

The problem seems to be that too many folks don’t think Sanders has those types of gifts.

What I keep hearing—and this has nothing to do with anyone having some personal issue with Sanders, or looking for him to fall in the draft so they can draft him—is that he isn’t a great athlete on tape, doesn’t have exceptional arm talent, and too often does things that simply won’t translate to the NFL game.

Now, it’s not like Sanders is devoid of ability. Even his critics will tell you that he’s accurate, smart and tough, and credit him for winning consistently at programs where it’s hard to do that. There’s production there that doesn’t happen if a kid can’t play.

But one interesting point that was raised to me in comparing Sanders to Ole Miss’s Jaxson Dart a couple months ago was interesting. The coach I was talking to said, simply, that when you watch those two under duress on tape, you see Dart moving forward, and Sanders moving backward. That essentially means that where Dart would climb the pocket, Sanders would bail out the back of it, and run away from defenders to create time to throw.

It’s a little thing, but to this coach, it was an example of how Dart’s game may translate to the NFL better—and how in a league with freakish pass rushers all over the place, the quarterback who manipulates the space around him has a much better chance than the one trying to create space on his own.

Anyway, I don’t think Sanders is going in the top three. And at this point, it feels like it’d be surprising if the Las Vegas Raiders, New York Jets or Saints took him in the top 10.

I’ve had more than one person say to me that if Sanders goes in the first round, it’ll be because an owner got involved. That, of course, is a bit of a guess from a few guys who are clued into how Sanders is viewed. But it’s also a bit of a window into the way evaluators are looking at the Colorado star.

NFL Takeaways: Unlikely Shedeur Sanders Goes No. 2 or 3 to the Browns or Giants

Plus, Kirk Cousins’s options after Joe Flacco signed in Cleveland, and notes on Derek Carr, Aidan Hutchinson, a flawed draft class and more.

www.si.com

 

[Goalie_Bob]

Anyhoo, Stalkers Depot was kind enough to link to 6 big boards the other day, and here's where they've got Sanders

PFF - 46th
NFL, Eric Edholm - 33rd
ESPN, Steve Muench/Scouts Inc - 14th
Ringer, Danny Kelly - 24th
CBS - 27th
Ath, Dane Brugler - 34th, 1st/2nd round grade

So feels like a 50/50 thing from what's out there.

Why they didn't have Daniel Jeremiah over Edholm is puzzling. But anyways, here are some additional experts added on to what they have:

PFF - 46th
NFL, Eric Edholm - 33rd
ESPN, Steve Muench/Scouts Inc - 14th
Ringer, Danny Kelly - 24th
CBS - 27th
Ath, Dane Brugler - 34th, 1st/2nd round grade
NFL, Daniel Jeremiah - 19th
33rd Team - 36th, Late First/Early Second Round Value
Steelers Depot - 35th, 8.3 grade, 2nd Round, Future Quality Starter

The Average is 30. But there is always going to be an adjustment for QBs at the top end of the draft.

 

[JTG]

Albert Breer is pretty plugged into the draft and had this to say about how Sanders is viewed:

NFL Takeaways: Unlikely Shedeur Sanders Goes No. 2 or 3 to the Browns or Giants

Plus, Kirk Cousins’s options after Joe Flacco signed in Cleveland, and notes on Derek Carr, Aidan Hutchinson, a flawed draft class and more.

www.si.com

I could have written that. It's exactly what I have felt about Sanders.

If we are taking a QB, I'd much rather Dart. I think he has uncoachable qualities despite his limitations, and maybe he is just one of those dudes who does better with pros?

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I could have written that. It's exactly what I have felt about Sanders.

If we are taking a QB, I'd much rather Dart. I think he has uncoachable qualities despite his limitations, and maybe he is just one of those dudes who does better with pros?

Does that mean you would take him at 21? Because he won't be there at 83.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not doubting that Breer reporting, but suggesting that the only way Sanders goes in the 1st round is "if an owner gets involved" sounds pretty outlandish to me. We just had a draft where 5 QBs went in the top-13, the league is starved for good QBs. Sanders may have some serious flaws, but I'd be downright flabbergasted if he's not taken in the 1st round.

Even looking at it from a simple perspective, that 5th year option is valuable enough for a team looking to draft him in the early 2nd to trade up a few spots and take him there. That's a big reason I've backed off the "Milroe won't be a 1st rounder" idea, if a team likes him at like #35, why not trade up to #30 and get the 5th year option with him?

 

[Andy99]

Albert Breer is pretty plugged into the draft and had this to say about how Sanders is viewed:

NFL Takeaways: Unlikely Shedeur Sanders Goes No. 2 or 3 to the Browns or Giants

Plus, Kirk Cousins’s options after Joe Flacco signed in Cleveland, and notes on Derek Carr, Aidan Hutchinson, a flawed draft class and more.

www.si.com

Yep and this is why you don’t trade up for him

 

[JTG]

Does that mean you would take him at 21? Because he won't be there at 83.

I don't take him at all in the first. I would trade back into the 2nd, and then manipulate it from there. That's where the value is for me watching him.

And I wouldn't say that guys won't be there. We go through this every single year. These guys are so polarizing that they may actually all be there in the 2nd round and some slipping to the 3rd...that's where guys like Dart were anyway before the post-season underwear olympic blow up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the combination of the QB class potentially slipping in the draft in addition to the DL class being deep makes me more inclined to trade down with the Steelers 1st. If you trade down from like 21 to 32, you'll most likely have multiple DL options available and at least one QB option left.

Trade down with Philly and do #21, #123 and #185 for #32 and #64. At #32, you'll likely have at least one of Dart, Milroe or Sanders available and two of Nolen, Harmon, Sanders, Williams and Grant available.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I don't take him at all in the first. I would trade back into the 2nd, and then manipulate it from there. That's where the value is for me watching him.

And I wouldn't say that guys won't be there. We go through this every single year. These guys are so polarizing that they may actually all be there in the 2nd round and some slipping to the 3rd...that's where guys like Dart were anyway before the post-season underwear olympic blow up.

When you say back into, do you mean taking a guy at 21 and then using picks this year and next to move back up into the 2nd or do you mean trading back from 21 to the early 2nd+probably a 3rd?

 

[Peat]

I'm not doubting that Breer reporting, but suggesting that the only way Sanders goes in the 1st round is "if an owner gets involved" sounds pretty outlandish to me. We just had a draft where 5 QBs went in the top-13, the league is starved for good QBs. Sanders may have some serious flaws, but I'd be downright flabbergasted if he's not taken in the 1st round.

Even looking at it from a simple perspective, that 5th year option is valuable enough for a team looking to draft him in the early 2nd to trade up a few spots and take him there. That's a big reason I've backed off the "Milroe won't be a 1st rounder" idea, if a team likes him at like #35, why not trade up to #30 and get the 5th year option with him?

Would you have said the same thing two weeks before Willis and Levis fell? Because if no, why would Sanders flabbergast you where those two didn't?

And if yes, maybe it's time to look at the precedents and start expecting the unexpected.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Would you have said the same thing two weeks before Willis and Levis fell? Because if no, why would Sanders flabbergast you where those two didn't?

And if yes, maybe it's time to look at the precedents and start expecting the unexpected.

Yes with Levis, no with Willis. Sanders falling out of round 1 would be similar to Levis falling out of round 1 to me.

 

[Peat]

Yes with Levis, no with Willis. Sanders falling out of round 1 would be similar to Levis falling out of round 1 to me.

Which, tbf, I think the Titans were trying to prevent.

But I look at both guys and by standard NFL 'look at the tools!' things, I think both had better natural tools than Sanders. If you're an NFL GM/HC looking to make maybe the one 1st round QB bet of your career, doing it with someone with Sanders' ceiling feels tough. I find it really easy to think a bunch of dudes think "he's not going to move the needle for me'".

 

[Empoleon8771]

Which, tbf, I think the Titans were trying to prevent.

But I look at both guys and by standard NFL 'look at the tools!' things, I think both had better natural tools than Sanders. If you're an NFL GM/HC looking to make maybe the one 1st round QB bet of your career, doing it with someone with Sanders' ceiling feels tough. I find it really easy to think a bunch of dudes think "he's not going to move the needle for me'".

I think one major difference there though is that Levis was never really great in college and was getting drafted based pretty much entirely on his cannon arm. Even in his senior year, he only threw for 2400 yards, 19 TDs and 10 interceptions. He was also pretty old when he was drafted.

Just for comparison, here is how Sanders and Levis compare in their junior and senior years:

Levis may have had better tools, but I think he was also worse coming out of college and was also older. Sanders being 2 years younger and more refined should make a team more willing to take a chance on him in the 1st round IMO. Sanders has risks as a QB, but I think those risks are with his upside more than him being a bust.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

I don’t really care if they draft Mccord or Howard both guys are Mason types. I do wonder if Rodgers signs do they take development Qb off the board and just sign Cook as udfa.
Sanders being Bridgewater i can see him falling. He doesn’t use play action and he isn’t very mobile. He eats sacks he is everything that RW was and Smith hated RW.
I definitely am hoping for a trade down and i am watching for Nolan to be a 30 visit right now the only 1st round DL they have visited is Harmon.

 

[Peat]

I think one major difference there though is that Levis was never really great in college and was getting drafted based pretty much entirely on his cannon arm. Even in his senior year, he only threw for 2400 yards, 19 TDs and 10 interceptions. He was also pretty old when he was drafted.

Just for comparison, here is how Sanders and Levis compare in their junior and senior years:

View attachment 1013636

View attachment 1013637

Levis may have had better tools, but I think he was also worse coming out of college and was also older. Sanders being 2 years younger and more refined should make a team more willing to take a chance on him in the 1st round IMO. Sanders has risks as a QB, but I think those risks are with his upside more than him being a bust.

Which is part of my point. NFL teams generally shy away from non high upside QBs in the 1st round. Hell, it's pretty much said in the Breer article. No special abilities, no 1st round grade. Maybe he makes it in anyway but I find it very easy to believe GMs are going to look at him and say "that ain't my dart throw to find the one".

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

"that ain't my dart throw to find the one".

I still just absolutely love when we use this phrase given the kid from Old Miss in this year's draft.

 

[xlm34]

I don’t really care if they draft Mccord or Howard both guys are Mason types. I do wonder if Rodgers signs do they take development Qb off the board and just sign Cook as udfa.
Sanders being Bridgewater i can see him falling. He doesn’t use play action and he isn’t very mobile. He eats sacks he is everything that RW was and Smith hated RW.
I definitely am hoping for a trade down and i am watching for Nolan to be a 30 visit right now the only 1st round DL they have visited is Harmon.

I could see them not being interested in Nolan. Or at least view lower than other DT prospects. A guy with work ethic/maturity concerns that doesn’t do any pre draft testing seems like something the Steelers would turn their nose up at in round one.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

When you say back into, do you mean taking a guy at 21 and then using picks this year and next to move back up into the 2nd or do you mean trading back from 21 to the early 2nd+probably a 3rd?

For me, this is the only way I see them taking a QB early.

I don't think they'll take one at 21.

 

[Pens x]

It’s cute people have convinced themselves that our QB is not in shambles

 

[Goalie_Bob]

It’s cute people have convinced themselves that our QB is not in shambles

Who is saying that?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Who is saying that?

Right.
If you want to criticize them for not taking a QB early, that's fine enough.

But people are well aware of the QB room.

 

[WickedWrister]

Sanders draft stock looking like Trump just announced an additional 25% tariff on aluminum

 

[Goalie_Bob]

That chart is showing the difference between 11 and 15. lol