OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Off Season We dont need a QB Edition

[CheckingLineCenter]

In a similar vein, part of me is thinking taking Dart at 21 is probably the quickest and least damaging end to Tomlin's time here. Like either I believe that no, he really can find and develop a franchise QB with Smith, Tom Arth, and Weidl around... or I don't, in which case why not get his second first round QB out of the way quick and cheap rather than waiting for him to screw up expensively?

Which is a pretty negative thing to think. But, when I got there, I do end up thinking whatever about it. This post brought to you by the spirit of grunge.

Pretty much. Feels like yeah they’ve missed in the draft some but overall we’ve been competently GMed/managed. And still to no avail in terms of actual success.

So if we wanna start doing crazy shit- oh well.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

2. I put the blame for players regressing on the coaches, not the GM, which is why I said yesterday that roster construction needs to be separated from coaching.

I cannot and will never agree with this position.

In some cases, are players just not that self-motivated or have reached their ceiling? Absolutely. It happens to all teams. Even on teams with solid coaching like Rams, Eagles, Lions, etc.

But with those teams I've mentioned, they have players progress more often than not. We went through this exercise a few weeks ago and we could only come up with a handful over a period of 5 to 10 years who improved on their rookie years in Pitt.

When you identify a consistent pattern of non-improvement, you have to go beyond looking at the players themselves.

What do you have left as potential reasons for failure? Coaching and drafting. Meaning they are drafting players that aren't self- motivated/at ceilings or they are not coaching motivated players up. Considering we've now gone through 2 GM's and we're having the same problems, there is only 1 conclusion.

 

[JTG]

I wouldn't mind snagging 2 RBs in this draft also. There are going to be guys really late that are solid competent backs.

Looked at 3 mocks today. All 3 had us taking Dart at 21. They were CBS, NFL.com, and Athlon.

That puts the organization even further behind. I don't think Dart is a horrible player, but he's a 3rd round prospect. They should build the team out for their next QB. I hope they don't f*** this up.

 

[pistolpete11]

I cannot and will never agree with this position.

In some cases, are players just not that self-motivated or have reached their ceiling? Absolutely. It happens to all teams. Even on teams with solid coaching like Rams, Eagles, Lions, etc.

But with those teams I've mentioned, they have players progress more often than not. We went through this exercise a few weeks ago and we could only come up with a handful over a period of 5 to 10 years who improved on their rookie years in Pitt.

When you identify a consistent pattern of non-improvement, you have to go beyond looking at the players themselves.

What do you have left as potential reasons for failure? Coaching and drafting. Meaning they are drafting players that aren't self- motivated/at ceilings or they are not coaching motivated players up. Considering we've now gone through 2 GM's and we're having the same problems, there is only 1 conclusion.

Sounds to me like you're saying it's coaching and if so, you might want to re-read what I posted.

 

[End of Line]

I wouldn't mind snagging 2 RBs in this draft also. There are going to be guys really late that are solid competent backs.



That puts the organization even further behind. I don't think Dart is a horrible player, but he's a 3rd round prospect. They should build the team out for their next QB. I hope they don't f*** this up.

Drafting a QB who played in Lane Kiffin’s system never works out

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

By rebuilding do you mean tanking? I can't think of an example of a SB winning team who intentionally bottomed out.

I think those terms get used interchangeably and that's where posters get confused with each other.

Here is how I define those words:

Retooling - a team that is starting to age out on some of it's key players and needs fresh support. This was the Pens for the past 5+ years. Now I'd characterize the Pens as rebuilding.
Rebuilding - a team that has no or little big time stars. They need an injection of talent and a lot of it. This is the Giants.
Tanking - What the Colts did about 15 years ago with the suck for Luck.
Going for it all (yes I just made that up lol) - A team like the Rams a few years back trading their draft stock for Stafford. Or a team spending now bc they are on the precipice of a SB - the Bills would fall into this category by signing Bosa.

 

[pistolpete11]

Drafting a QB at 21 in a weak QB class would be so colossally stupid. It's repeating the same mistake they made with Pickett. Even almost down to the overall pick number.

This team is finally in a position to take a shot at a real QB prospect next year, whether by trading up and/or finishing with a poor record this year, and people are fine throwing away a 1st on a 3rd round (at best) QB prospect? Absolutely crazy.

If you want to throw shit at the wall, at least wait until the 3rd or 4th round. Missing on 1st round picks is a big part of the reason they ended up in the position they are in.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Why else wouldn't he have signed? The Steelers are the only team that have waited him out and he still hasn't signed. What does that tell you? Dude doesn't want to play here.

He's lukewarm at best on playing here and the Steelers - like a friendzoned fat kid who thinks his luck can change - is waiting for the girl to give him a pity f***.

It's pathetic honestly - have some pride and save your money. Draft a kid, move on.

Well I agree and don't agree with your post.

If you're AR, why would you come to a place where offense goes to die? You won't be in a successful environment. He's doing the smart thing by passing on us and waiting for an injury to happen. He's super horny for Minn and who wouldn't be? But as much as the Vikes are playing it coy, even if McCarthy would suffer a setback coach KOC is smart enough to not entertain the clown show that comes with AR. Face it- AR LOVES attention, both good and bad

But I don't agree with the premise that AR is somehow holding the Steelers hostage. RW was really the last legit QB domino to fall and I don't think we missed out on much by waiting for AR. As we sit right now, MR and Skylar aren't horrific QB's. They are functional and for the majority of the NFL who don't have a Mahommes or Allen or Herbert, they are pretty much in line. My guess is we'll add a guy to the QB room

So RW, Fields, MR, Thompson, AR, Winston, etc....they are all the same dog. They just have different fleas.

 

[Peat]

Drafting a QB at 21 in a weak QB class would be so colossally stupid. It's repeating the same mistake they made with Pickett. Even almost down to the overall pick number.

This team is finally in a position to take a shot at a real QB prospect next year, whether by trading up and/or finishing with a poor record this year, and people are fine throwing away a 1st on a 3rd round (at best) QB prospect? Absolutely crazy.

If you want to throw shit at the wall, at least wait until the 3rd or 4th round. Missing on 1st round picks is a big part of the reason they ended up in the position they are in.

Do you feel like trusting Tomlin with whoever next year's version of Fields/Nix/McCarthy/Mac Jones is?

 

[xlm34]

I definitely agree with everyone saying they should not touch a QB prospect in round one this year. Maaaaybe I could get on board with Sanders but I don’t see him dropping at this point.

We may be having a similar discussion next year though. It definitely looks like it’ll be better, but the most interesting guys are rawer/inexperienced guys that’ll have eligibility left. And the guys definitely coming out have a lot to show.

 

[xlm34]

Do you feel like trusting Tomlin with whoever next year's version of Fields/Nix/McCarthy/Mac Jones is?

We at least saw progress with Fields. He wasn’t a world beater or anything but he was absolutely a better QB here than he was in Chicago. It at least counts for something that they helped him improve.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Are we going to send him on *LOAN* to Philly or LA or San Fran to work under a Offensive Staff that can develop him.

Otherwise we are wasting a pick... dude will get ruined here.

That's been my position all along and for the past 10 years with Tomlin: they need to get really lucky and find a QB that can transcend all the Tomlin bullshit. I mean Ben was barely able to do so and he's a HOF QB.

I still contend that Mahommes would be on his 2nd team and thriving if the Steelers had drafted him. He would not have received the coaching and support to be what we see today.

 

[JTG]

Drafting a QB who played in Lane Kiffin’s system never works out

He does have some Purdy qualities, including the offense he came through in college. I won't rule him out because of that, but just like Purdy...Dart isn't anywhere near a 1st round pick.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

We at least saw progress with Fields. He wasn’t a world beater or anything but he was absolutely a better QB here than he was in Chicago. It at least counts for something that they helped him improve.

I don't agree with this. JF's progress was "don't turn it over or take sacks" pounded into him by the Steelers, then ok.

But we saw no improvement in terms of his ball handling (still can't take a snap from center), reading defenses, putting touch on passes, etc. The fundamentals of QBing he still cannot do. And I don't blame the Steelers coaching staff on this. JF is who he is. He'll never amount to anything other than a low QB1 or a high QB2.

You'll see the same JF you saw in Pitt and Chicago and not much variance. His new team should take note of how the Steelers coddled his play and they'll be able to squeeze the same juice from him and allow him to be a handoff monkey with occasional sensational runs by him.

I'll put any money down that JF doesn't win a playoff game the rest of his career.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Sounds to me like you're saying it's coaching and if so, you might want to re-read what I posted.

I went back and read your post and still came away with that same conclusion. Can you clarify?

 

[End of Line]

He does have some Purdy qualities, including the offense he came through in college. I won't rule him out because of that, but just like Purdy...Dart isn't anywhere near a 1st round pick.

I’m just looking at Kiffin’s track record with putting QB’s in the league and outside of 1 year of Jalen Hurts, who imo became who he is today after playing for Lincoln Riley at Oklahoma, there’s no you can really point to.

 

[Peat]

We at least saw progress with Fields. He wasn’t a world beater or anything but he was absolutely a better QB here than he was in Chicago. It at least counts for something that they helped him improve.

Leaving aside the many quibbles I have with Fields improving in Pittsburgh, how much added faith does it give you that they can take the raw material and take it all the way? Because taking someone else's project and stabilising it in your system, and actually doing your own and making it great, aren't quite the same thing. A big part of them stabilising Fields was asking him to do a ton less, but you don't get a franchise QB without building up their responsibilities from that stage - which they didn't do.

 

[pistolpete11]

Do you feel like trusting Tomlin with whoever next year's version of Fields/Nix/McCarthy/Mac Jones is?

You know how I feel about Tomlin. If you are building a team to make the HC look bad, though, you're doing it wrong. Give him what he needs to be successful and if he can't get it done, then he has no excuses.

 

[xlm34]

I don't agree with this. JF's progress was "don't turn it over or take sacks" pounded into him by the Steelers, then ok.

But we saw no improvement in terms of his ball handling (still can't take a snap from center), reading defenses, putting touch on passes, etc. The fundamentals of QBing he still cannot do. And I don't blame the Steelers coaching staff on this. JF is who he is. He'll never amount to anything other than a low QB1 or a high QB2.

You'll see the same JF you saw in Pitt and Chicago and not much variance. His new team should take note of how the Steelers coddled his play and they'll be able to squeeze the same juice from him and allow him to be a handoff monkey with occasional sensational runs by him.

I'll put any money down that JF doesn't win a playoff game the rest of his career.

That’s absolutely an improvement. He also posted his best EPA/dropback, Success Rate, and ANY/A. Basically any QB stat you look at, he improved from where he was in Chicago. Again, I’m not saying they turned him into a great QB but there’s no debating that he improved this year.

 

[pistolpete11]

I went back and read your post and still came away with that same conclusion. Can you clarify?

"I put the blame for players regressing on the coaches..."

Not sure how else to say it.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

"I put the blame for players regressing on the coaches..."

Not sure how else to say it.

I obviously had too much sun in Florida this week!
Apologies, I obviously perverted your statement

 

[xlm34]

Leaving aside the many quibbles I have with Fields improving in Pittsburgh, how much added faith does it give you that they can take the raw material and take it all the way? Because taking someone else's project and stabilising it in your system, and actually doing your own and making it great, aren't quite the same thing. A big part of them stabilising Fields was asking him to do a ton less, but you don't get a franchise QB without building up their responsibilities from that stage - which they didn't do.

It at least gives me more confidence than I previously had that there were reportedly mechanical tweaks they made with him that lead to tangible improvements. If they could do it with him, why couldn’t they do it with someone else?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

It at least gives me more confidence than I previously had that there were reportedly mechanical tweaks they made with him that lead to tangible improvements. If they could do it with him, why couldn’t they do it with someone else?

Not trying to be a dick or pedantic on this topic, but even if I concede your point JF improved, what would that get them in terms of another QB? Doesn't matter who they draft, they're gonna put the handcuffs on him. They don't allow their QB's any runway to audible, throw MOF, or to take risks.

Your point a few months ago about MOF is true: if they trust the QB (namely Ben), they get to throw there.
But it's a chicken or the egg thing: how do you develop trust without accepting risk?

It's like having your child ace their road test and written portion at 16, but never allowing them to drive alone because they might get in a wreck.

 

[Peat]

You know how I feel about Tomlin. If you are building a team to make the HC look bad, though, you're doing it wrong. Give him what he needs to be successful and if he can't get it done, then he has no excuses.

I'm not building the team though. This isn't me or @CheckingLineCenter saying this is what they should do.

This is different versions of 'given the team's recent moves and who they've got... if they make a crazy gamble, oh well, who cares'. I won't put words in CLC's mouth but for me, after reading what he said, I realised that yeah, it's tough to get that worked up about whether they're smart or stupid with that sort of blockage.

It at least gives me more confidence than I previously had that there were reportedly mechanical tweaks they made with him that lead to tangible improvements. If they could do it with him, why couldn’t they do it with someone else?

Mechanical tweaks are the easy part though. Getting a guy to understand what's going on on the field and being willing to let him demonstrate it, and managing the progression of that demonstration.

I'll be idly interested to see if the mechanical tweaks stick next year in NY too, particularly if pressure mounts on him. Not that I'm expecting them to fail but at the same time, pressure tests mechanics, and I am a big believer that a huge part of Fields' uptick in a lot of areas was less pressure - we never saw a ton of him with pressure on and I imagine that pressure will be returning in NY.

 

[pistolpete11]

I'm not building the team though. This isn't me or @CheckingLineCenter saying this is what they should do.

This is different versions of 'given the team's recent moves and who they've got... if they make a crazy gamble, oh well, who cares'. I won't put words in CLC's mouth but for me, after reading what he said, I realised that yeah, it's tough to get that worked up about whether they're smart or stupid with that sort of blockage.

So I should care that they overpaid for Fitz and Queen in years they had no shot at winning anything, but I shouldn't care about decisions that will affect the franchise for the next 5-10 years? Got it.