OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: New Quarter Backs for the Handball team!

[Jaded-Fan]

My heart bleeds purple piss for them. They drafted two stud corners.

It does beg the question. Had the roles been reversed would the Steelers have made the right move and taken the cornerback who fell, or reached for a center?

And reaching for a center would have a domino effect as they scrambled to fill needs in the following rounds.

It also shows how the tackle falling to them set up the draft board perfectly for them to not make choices. The best available players were in positions of great need after getting their tackle in round one. Eagles ending up addressing their offensive line pick in round six. That could have been the Steelers.

 

[JTG]

It does beg the question. Had the roles been reversed would the Steelers have made the right move and taken the cornerback who fell, or reached for a center?

And reaching for a center would have a domino effect as they scrambled to fill needs in the following rounds.

It also shows how the tackle falling to them set up the draft board perfectly for them to not make choices. The best available players were in positions of great need after getting their tackle in round one. Eagles ending up addressing their offensive line pick in round six. That could have been the Steelers.

Fautanu falling was like DeCastro falling or Pouncey falling or Faneca falling like they all did. You take them and figure it out.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Fautanu falling was like DeCastro falling or Pouncey falling or Faneca falling like they all did. You take them and figure it out.

No doubt.

My point was more a general draft philosophy point.

Taking Fautanu was a no brainer.

But look at what the Eagles did. They desperately needed linemen and a DB. They missed on Fautanu. They took the falling corner.

If we truly have gotten to an Eagles level front office we would have done the same had the roles been reversed. I am not so sure that the Steelers would have. They would have reached for the center and it would have screwed their entire draft as they scrambled to fill other needs.

 

[Peat]

No doubt.

My point was more a general draft philosophy point.

Taking Fautanu was a no brainer.

But look at what the Eagles did. They desperately needed linemen and a DB. They missed on Fautanu. They took the falling corner.

If we truly have gotten to an Eagles level front office we would have done the same had the roles been reversed. I am not so sure that the Steelers would have. They would have reached for the center and it would have screwed their entire draft as they scrambled to fill other needs.

They didn't desperately needs a linesman. They've got 4/5 spots sewn up and a contest at RG going into camp. The Eagles love to have the trenches well stocked but they weren't looking at not having a starter if they missed out on the draft. It's a very different situation to the Steelers.

I'd have also been okay with them going Barton. I don't think it was a reach and I think calling it a reach when it's quite possible all it would have done is to flip going T-C to going C-T with someone like Suamataia in R2 is a bit hyperbolic.

If anything, going CB in R1 and only starting OL drafting in R2 is the move that seems to cause the most chaos.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

He just turned 25 in March - 3 months older than Kenny. You were on the Kenny train, but not the Fields train, despite Fields having much more natural talent.

I am of the belief that players can develop. Somehow that school of thought has completely gone out the window in today's NFL. Sometimes situations drastically change outcomes for players, which we have seen in spades with ex-Steelers.

Fields coming out of college needed time. It's not his fault that Chicago couldn't afford to let him have that. In college he threw a really catchable ball, and actually worked short-intermediate throws really nicely, which I think should translate here.

Downside is that he plays Heroball, and it gets him into trouble. His accuracy takes a dip when he starts running around. I think him sitting will be HUGE for his development. He needed it in Chicago and every single person that watched him at OSU knew that.

Age doesn’t matter to me, NFL experience does.

I was on the KP train for three years and was pretty adamant I’d be off it by the end of next season if he didn’t improve.

I don’t really get attached to players so if he didn’t show any improvement by then - time to go.

I’m a massive believer in the three year rule and being patient with a QB.

After that all bets are off.

Fields has hit that expiry date last season and still can’t read a D, struggles with his progressions and lacks accuracy.

All the most worrisome traits a QB can still have after three years.

I'll just remind people - as it looks like some might have forgotten - that the Bears picking 1OA wasn't a direct consequence of Fields' play last season. Their pick was 9OA. The 1OA was the Panthers pick they got from trading down last year.

However, the very existence of that pick does

a) Tell you why GMs are unlikely to regard even a 1OA QB as a sure thing
b) Tell you that the Bears were willing to trade down from there if it made more sense for the franchise.

2023, they thought it did. 2024, they thought it didn't.

Part of that is probably a higher confidence level in Williams than in Bryce Young. But the extent to which Fields didn't progress last year is probably part of it too. Also probably why pretty much the whole NFL said no to bringing him in as a starter.

The Bears had first overall in 2023 because of Fields poor play and traded it to Carolina.

Having that first overall this season was a direct result of Fields struggles.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Who knows, maybe when it's all done, maybe McFadden got us all wound up over nothing.

Maybe it fell through like the Alvin Harper almost trade way back that put Steeler Nation into a massive depression.

 

[T1K]

Zay Jones would be an excellent addition to the WR room on the cheaper side of things

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Bears had first overall in 2023 because of Fields poor play and traded it to Carolina.

Having that first overall this season was a direct result of Fields struggles.

No they didn't? They had 1st overall in 2023 because they averaged 27 points against a game.

Their offense wasn't good but that team was as bad as it was due to the defense.

 

[Empoleon8771]

As an aside, I find it weird that the most vocal anti-Fields posters here were pro-Pickett posters last season, despite Fields having better seasons in worse situations than Pickett has had in the NFL

 

[DanielPlainview]

He just turned 25 in March - 3 months older than Kenny. You were on the Kenny train, but not the Fields train, despite Fields having much more natural talent.

I am of the belief that players can develop. Somehow that school of thought has completely gone out the window in today's NFL. Sometimes situations drastically change outcomes for players, which we have seen in spades with ex-Steelers.

Fields coming out of college needed time. It's not his fault that Chicago couldn't afford to let him have that. In college he threw a really catchable ball, and actually worked short-intermediate throws really nicely, which I think should translate here.

Downside is that he plays Heroball, and it gets him into trouble. His accuracy takes a dip when he starts running around. I think him sitting will be HUGE for his development. He needed it in Chicago and every single person that watched him at OSU knew that.

Fields does not have more natural talent than Kenny Pickett. He has a faster 40 time but that has jack to do with QB talent. Kenny Pickett managed to make himself a first round pick in a Pat Narduzzi offense and managed to somehow win games in a Matt Canada offense once in the pros. Kenny’s only major flaw is his happy feet which is fixable. He can read defenses, deliver accurate balls, and protects the ball (few turnovers). Fields on top of happy feet, can’t read anything, makes poor decisions, and puts the ball on the ground at an alarming rate. But hey he’s more mobile so he’s got talent!

 

[MrBrightside]

As an aside, I find it weird that the most vocal anti-Fields posters here were pro-Pickett posters last season, despite Fields having better seasons in worse situations than Pickett has had in the NFL

When your sole purpose for posting on message boards is to shit on the coaching staff 24/7 it can lead to inconsistency in one’s logic.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Fields does not have more natural talent than Kenny Pickett. He has a faster 40 time but that has jack to do with QB talent. Kenny Pickett managed to make himself a first round pick in a Pat Narduzzi offense and managed to somehow win games in a Matt Canada offense once in the pros.

If Fields does not have more talent than Pickett, how has Fields had better stats than Pickett in the NFL so far despite being on a dumpster fire of a team?

 

[DanielPlainview]

If Fields does not have more talent than Pickett, how has Fields had better stats than Pickett in the NFL so far despite being on a dumpster fire of a team?

Stats are very often misleading. Fields was really not good given the time he had to make plays. Pickett was running for his life and still managed to be ok.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Stats are very often misleading. Fields was really not good given the time he had to make plays. Pickett was running for his life and still managed to be ok.

Pickett got to play with Johnson, Pickens, Harris and Freiermuth and managed to throw 13 TDs in 25 games and have the 7th worst and 5th worst offenses in football.

Fields threw 17 TDs in 15 games in 2022 with literally only Kmet, while also leading the team in rushing yards with over a 1000 yard season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I also don't agree with the argument of "the Bears picked Williams because they thought Fields wasn't progressing" argument either. Fields was not bad last year, he averaged about 200 passing yards and 50 rushing yards per game while the Bears were roughly a league average offense. He also greatly brought down the turnovers both in terms of interceptions (3.5% INT% to 2.4%) and fumbles (1 fumble every 10 rushing attempts to 1 fumble every 12.4 rushing attempts). His completion% went up a bit as well.

The Bears went with Williams and traded Fields because Williams projects to be far better than Fields, which I think even the biggest fans of Fields would agree with. The upside with Fields is a major running threat with average passing. It's a no brainer to pick a prospect as good as Williams over Fields, even if Fields would have had a breakout year last year.

 

[Peat]

As an aside, I find it weird that the most vocal anti-Fields posters here were pro-Pickett posters last season, despite Fields having better seasons in worse situations than Pickett has had in the NFL

Because, among other things, I heavily value a QB's capability in crunch situations. Fields' 4th quarter statistics are atrocious. Pickett's represent a heavy spike. Pickett had an ability I value. Fields has none.

I also think that the idea that Fields has been playing in worse situations is very challengeable. Certainly the only attempt to quantify it I saw for last season said Fields was in a bog average situation and Pickett was in the 2nd or 3rd worst spot in the league. Luke Getsy got an OC job after Chicago. I don't think Canada will work in the NFL again.

Finally, the idea of pro-Pickett is a little tenuous in that there's nobody here who thinks the Steelers made a mistake in letting go of him last I checked. The breakdown is mainly between people who didn't like Pickett and people who were wait and see. I think, by and large, even the most patient people and people who valued Pickett's traits highest are generally of the viewpoint that the situation is non-salvageable...

... but if we think that, why are we going to think Fields is salvageable when he has a full extra season of being an NFL starter?

Tbh, we can go round and round the bush and doubtless will again, but the simple truth is we all value different things.

And if you're one of the people here who measures a QB mainly by their ability to read an offence and stay out of trouble rather than by their athleticism, Justin Fields is not an attractive option to develop.

And if you're one of the people here who measures a QB's development runway mainly by time spent in the NFL and games played rather than age, Fields has passed the point of reasonable hope.

And if you're both of those, then the only redeeming feature about Justin Fields is the low cost and there's pretty much nothing that can be said to change it.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Fields was 11OA. Not exactly crazy high for a QB. Hard for me to call him a major failure.

Expectations are low but who really cares at the cost they got him for and the role he’s gonna fill? He went for late picks and is gonna be our backup.

Very obvious Jiggy just mad his boy KP made him look bad

 

[Empoleon8771]

I also think that the idea that Fields has been playing in worse situations is very challengeable. Certainly the only attempt to quantify it I saw for last season said Fields was in a bog average situation and Pickett was in the 2nd or 3rd worst spot in the league. Luke Getsy got an OC job after Chicago. I don't think Canada will work in the NFL again.

Yeah, there is flat out no way I can agree with this argument. Canada was an awful OC, yes, but the amount of talent Pickett had around him was FAR more than what Fields had for the most part. Fields actually finally got some talent last year with Moore from Carolina and the Bears actually had a decent offense.

I think the thing that confuses me is that I agree with you on "wait and see" with Pickett. I was completely fine with giving him another look, well up until he demanded a trade. I am in the same position with Fields as I was with Pickett: he's still young and there might be something there worth trying to develop. Fields may have flaws that Pickett didn't have that can reasonably make someone skeptical of him, but I feel like the same patience towards Pickett should be extended towards Fields. That's just my opinion on it.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Fields was 11OA. Not exactly crazy high for a QB. Hard for me to call him a major failure.

Expectations are low but who really cares at the cost they got him for and the role he’s gonna fill? He went for late picks and is gonna be our backup.

Very obvious Jiggy just mad his boy KP made him look bad

I defended Kordell for years with my family and friends and don’t feel badly about that either.

I’ll always be ultra patient with QBs and give them time to learn without throwing a hissy fit like you and others when they struggle.

If they don’t work out after a few years it’s time to move on and I have never had any hard feelings towards the guys that bust out.

I don’t feel the need to pile on them and make rumors about them and Schenley Park, flip out when they struggle, etc.

No they didn't? They had 1st overall in 2023 because they averaged 27 points against a game.

Their offense wasn't good but that team was as bad as it was due to the defense.

So basically you just told me you didn’t watch Fields play that year.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

This is an article in the Chicago papers in 2021:

Bears QB Justin Fields: I try to pattern my game after Russell Wilson​

Bears QB Justin Fields: I try to pattern my game after Russell Wilson

The Bears tried to trade for Wilson in March, offering the Seahawks a fortune in draft picks, only to be told that coach Pete Carroll didn’t want to deal his star quarterback.

chicago.suntimes.com

That probably is the thinking. Let Wilson mentor Fields for a year and see what happens.

I get the skepticism. But it is not a bad plan either. Is it likely to work. Not really. Although it depends on your definition of 'work'. At worst you should get average play out of the position.

Will Fields take that next step learning under Wilson? There certainly is a chance. There is no QB Coach I would rather have for what Fields would hope to do than Wilson.

And we are back to the alternatives. The Steelers are too good to draft high enough to get anyone that does not have warts or questions.

Excuse some of us for being excited over likely average with some hope of a chance at special. We have had below average offense for so long average will feel like they score four TDs a game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So basically you just told me you didn’t watch Fields play that year.

They had the 23rd ranked offense and 32nd ranked defense. Giving up 27 points a game seems like a much bigger reason why they ended up being bad that year.

 

[WickedWrister]

 

[Jaded-Fan]

So this guy gets called out with the accusation of making vague posts that say nothing to make people think that he has active sources sharing with him.

And responds to the accusation with a vague post with more vague claims.

 

[Pens1566]

So this guy gets called out with the accusation of making vague posts that say nothing to make people think that he has active sources sharing with him.

And responds to the accusation with a vague post with more vague claims.

That's how twitter works.

 

[WickedWrister]

That's how twitter works.

Yeah you literally get paid for engagement farming now