OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Kansas City Swifts vs Philly Eagles

[Zirakzigil]

You can be about value but you have to have a fall back plan. He chased wr 2 for a year he was trying to get debo or aiyuk at the draft. He went after kirk but he got hurt. Williams was plan D. He was brought in because they were doing better then expected. None of the wr who were traded for at the deadline did much for their new teams. The jets new khan was desperate and took a pick for a guy that was the 4th option ok the jets.

Plausible, but hard to say for sure, and in any case prone to being overridden. See the end of Colbert's time where he wanted to cut ties with Ben but Rooney didn't so Ben had one more season. Investing big time in physical football and being reluctant to spend in FA are good Steeler traditions so I doubt Khan is running into any argument there. Hell, for all we know Rooney set some limits on spending that Khan would rather do without; maybe Khan would have preferred to offer Aiyuk over 28m and get the guy rather than walk away empty handed.

And maybe not. They do a very good job of obfuscating who does what so who knows for sure.





Maybe as a middle name.

Then go for something else as a first, like, I dunno, Francis. Or Finn.

I just want there to be a Fart Rooney, thank you and good night.

Eh, Queen just made the ProBowl??? WT actual F?

Where this idea goes sideways is… has Tomlin given him what he wants?

He wants a dominant run game and every year at the end of the season he has to talk about how - doh!… we need to develop a running game.

He wants an elite D, and every season the D gets waxed in historical ways in the playoffs.

So if this is what AR2 really wants, why then is Tomlin still the coach?

There’s… no… logic… here.

The worst possible thing that can happen also is that Fields succeeds. Because then Tomlin looks like an absolute f***ing legend again.

Pro Bowl is a joke. All Pro is the only one that mattered along with making the All Madden team back in the day.

His stat line this year wasn’t bad, actually.

Click to read more...

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Ben Johnson was talking the other day about how he's going to strip the Bears playbook bare, and rebuild it tailored to the talent and players he has.

Also said that he chose to wait another year before taking a HC gig so he could plan everything out, particularly in his coaching hires and organizational design. Seemed almost a bit MBA-ish, but he's either going to be very successful or flame out spectacularly. But at least he won't be settling for mediocrity.

 

[pistolpete11]

@Peat

It is hard to parse out who's responsible for what exactly and it could be Rooney meddling, especially at the end of Ben's career, but I think there was a clear shift between prioritizing the skill positions vs. the lines.

Look at their 1st and 2nd rounders the last several years.

Fitz (trade), Claypool, Harris, Muth, Pickett, Pickens

vs.

Jones, JPJ (the one outlier), Benton, Fautanu, Frazier. I think you could also add Issac and Daniels being 2 of their bigger FA signings as a data point as well.

The previous regime (at least at the end) seemed more willing to patch work the lines (Moore, Greene) while Khan seemed willing to patch work the skill positions (mainly the WR). I'm sure it's partly a natural organization cycle to a certain extent with who they had (or who they thought they had), but it's a pretty stark difference IMO. And I hope it continues with a DL in R1 or R2 this year.

 

[JTG]

I really liked Ollie Gordon heading into this year and he came into this year as a top 5 back. Last offseason Gordon decided to gain ~15 pounds and play around 225 instead of his 211. Totally crushed his explosiveness like I have said it does with Najee. If Najee dropped to 225, he would probably be a dominant back.

Caleb Johnson is my ideal back in this draft, I think.

 

[Smoke]

I hope the Chiefs win. I kind of like seeing everyone lose their minds over a football team.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Someone said PIT needs to start moving TJ around like other teams do with elite EDGE guys, "even if TJ doesn't like it".

I read that like TJ doesn't move around because TJ hasn't wanted to. Which is yet another example of Tomlin just enabling guys rather than challenging them and getting buy-in to be their best.

There's no proof that's true, but it fits. Surely this coaching staff isn't THAT incompetent that TJ wants to move around for better match-ups, but they refuse to do the obvious?

 

[JTG]

Someone said PIT needs to start moving TJ around like other teams do with elite EDGE guys, "even if TJ doesn't like it".

I read that like TJ doesn't move around because TJ hasn't wanted to. Which is yet another example of Tomlin just enabling guys rather than challenging them and getting buy-in to be their best.

There's no proof that's true, but it fits. Surely this coaching staff isn't THAT incompetent that TJ wants to move around for better match-ups, but they refuse to do the obvious?

I actually heard the exact opposite - TJ WANTS to move around because it would make it harder for teams to chip him. If they ran a defense now like they did in the 2000's with the zone blitz, TJ would have 30 sacks a year.

Highsmith has struggled with the head on head rush since he has started. He's just one step slow usually. If they got him moving in a zone blitz type defense, he'd be more successful also, I think.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Someone said PIT needs to start moving TJ around like other teams do with elite EDGE guys, "even if TJ doesn't like it".

I read that like TJ doesn't move around because TJ hasn't wanted to. Which is yet another example of Tomlin just enabling guys rather than challenging them and getting buy-in to be their best.

There's no proof that's true, but it fits. Surely this coaching staff isn't THAT incompetent that TJ wants to move around for better match-ups, but they refuse to do the obvious?

There was a quote from hm right after the end of the season I thought in which he said he intends to be more open to moving around in the future. Didn't say why he doesn't now but unless he was covering or planting a seed - things which I doubt but which many will want to believe because it reinforces the perception of coaching incompetence - the implication seemed he has been resistant to it.

Pretty sure it was a linked tweet and I'll admit my memory could be off but if someone wants to go looking through the previous thread...

 

[pistolpete11]

Someone said PIT needs to start moving TJ around like other teams do with elite EDGE guys, "even if TJ doesn't like it".

I read that like TJ doesn't move around because TJ hasn't wanted to. Which is yet another example of Tomlin just enabling guys rather than challenging them and getting buy-in to be their best.

There's no proof that's true, but it fits. Surely this coaching staff isn't THAT incompetent that TJ wants to move around for better match-ups, but they refuse to do the obvious?

I actually heard the exact opposite - TJ WANTS to move around because it would make it harder for teams to chip him. If they ran a defense now like they did in the 2000's with the zone blitz, TJ would have 30 sacks a year.

Highsmith has struggled with the head on head rush since he has started. He's just one step slow usually. If they got him moving in a zone blitz type defense, he'd be more successful also, I think.

T.J. Watt Seems Ready To Move Around After 'Getting A Little Grumpy' About Chips, Kaboly Says

Pittsburgh Steelers OLB T.J. Watt just had one of the best “down” years in NFL history. He “only” recorded 11.5 sacks last season, his lowest total while healthy since his rookie year. Of course, he also forced six fumbles and had 19 tackles for loss, but only sacks matter to some people. They...

steelersdepot.com

Kaboly said Watt didn't want to move around, but is now open to it.

Both player and team are at fault here.

 

[JTG]

TJ just isn't going to be able to turn the bend like he does much longer. He's 31 this year. They realllllly should look into moving him, but they won't. He would benefit a team more than the Steelers, have a chance at a Super Bowl, and we would get the picks we need to rebuild this the right way.

 

[Pens1566]

I really liked Ollie Gordon heading into this year and he came into this year as a top 5 back. Last offseason Gordon decided to gain ~15 pounds and play around 225 instead of his 211. Totally crushed his explosiveness like I have said it does with Najee. If Najee dropped to 225, he would probably be a dominant back.

Caleb Johnson is my ideal back in this draft, I think.

Gordon's line this year was also absolute dogshit in comparison to the year before. At one point this year his yards before contact was NEGATIVE.

 

[JTG]

Gordon's line this year was also absolute dogshit in comparison to the year before. At one point this year his yards before contact was NEGATIVE.

I think we may be able to snag him just like Warren...who was also an OSU guy. I don't think he's going to get drafted until late.

I REALLY like that Giddens dude from Kansas State. Reminds me of Le'Veon at MSU. I wouldn't be against bringing in multiple rookie runners this year. Make Warren earn his spot.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Still thinking more about Andy Reid leaving Philly and his arrival in KC.

Andy Reid had a passable QB in Alex Smith, but the QB he wanted was in the 2016 draft so he went after him.

Andy Reid also built a culture. He got rid of KC's best defensive player, Marcus Peters, while Peters was still at All Pro caliber, because Peters was a malcontent.

Reid wanted smart players who were also disciplined. Tomlin is the anti-thesis of him in so many ways.

 

[Peat]

@Peat

It is hard to parse out who's responsible for what exactly and it could be Rooney meddling, especially at the end of Ben's career, but I think there was a clear shift between prioritizing the skill positions vs. the lines.

Look at their 1st and 2nd rounders the last several years.

Fitz (trade), Claypool, Harris, Muth, Pickett, Pickens

vs.

Jones, JPJ (the one outlier), Benton, Fautanu, Frazier. I think you could also add Issac and Daniels being 2 of their bigger FA signings as a data point as well.

The previous regime (at least at the end) seemed more willing to patch work the lines (Moore, Greene) while Khan seemed willing to patch work the skill positions (mainly the WR). I'm sure it's partly a natural organization cycle to a certain extent with who they had (or who they thought they had), but it's a pretty stark difference IMO. And I hope it continues with a DL in R1 or R2 this year.

The results have definitely shifted and the demarcation line is the change between Colbert and Khan. But I'm unwilling to say that this is Khan driving his vision past a pair of guys who maybe don't want it for all sorts of reasons like

a) They did just interview him for the job in the last three years and presumably asked things like "what is your vision". I really doubt he has the job unless they liked his vision

b) I can't really go around believing that Tomlin is the primus inter pares decision maker there except on days where Rooney puts his foot down and also believe that Khan is able to drive an agenda that cuts across theirs. I mean its possible, but its not super likely.

c) Luck/Timing. You've already mentioned that it's partly natural cycle. Judging from comments made by both guys after, it feels like Porter is the Steelers 17OA if they can't move up and get Jones and NYJ take him in 2023, and that Wilson is the Steelers 2nd round pick if Frazier wasn't there, as both expected to be picked by the Steelers there. Or maybe that happens if Morse accepts the Steelers' offer in FA. The team was, for all I decry the lowball tactics that led to it not happening, minutes away from getting Aiyuk in August and I suspect they were pretty close at the draft too. Feels like things could have been very different.

d) Weidl. Credit to Khan for hiring him but if Weidl went tomorrow, would Khan still be following the same philosophies, or would he pivot to another personnel guru and follow his?

Lot of unknowns and circumstances. It's possible that Khan is the big difference making piece but also not for all sorts of reasons.

 

[Pens1566]

I think we may be able to snag him just like Warren...who was also an OSU guy. I don't think he's going to get drafted until late.

I REALLY like that Giddens dude from Kansas State. Reminds me of Le'Veon at MSU. I wouldn't be against bringing in multiple rookie runners this year. Make Warren earn his spot.

I've seen them both as a WVU fan. Man, did Gordon just look unstoppable last season. I think he'd be an ideal "steal" anywhere in the mid to late rounds.

 

[JTG]

I've seen them both as a WVU fan. Man, did Gordon just look unstoppable last season. I think he'd be an ideal "steal" anywhere in the mid to late rounds.

I can see Ollie going undrafted. Not likely considering his work earlier in his college career, but it's possible with how deep this class is. We really should fill our depth chart at RB in this draft. Nothing we have at RB is all that remarkable.

I'd bring back Warren and draft two, but I don't think they would have a room that young.

 

[DanielPlainview]

WR, CB, OL, and a Cam replacement are more important than RB but The Deuce is going to push us down the wrong path again undoubtedly

 

[pistolpete11]

The results have definitely shifted and the demarcation line is the change between Colbert and Khan. But I'm unwilling to say that this is Khan driving his vision past a pair of guys who maybe don't want it for all sorts of reasons like

a) They did just interview him for the job in the last three years and presumably asked things like "what is your vision". I really doubt he has the job unless they liked his vision

b) I can't really go around believing that Tomlin is the primus inter pares decision maker there except on days where Rooney puts his foot down and also believe that Khan is able to drive an agenda that cuts across theirs. I mean its possible, but its not super likely.

c) Luck/Timing. You've already mentioned that it's partly natural cycle. Judging from comments made by both guys after, it feels like Porter is the Steelers 17OA if they can't move up and get Jones and NYJ take him in 2023, and that Wilson is the Steelers 2nd round pick if Frazier wasn't there, as both expected to be picked by the Steelers there. Or maybe that happens if Morse accepts the Steelers' offer in FA. The team was, for all I decry the lowball tactics that led to it not happening, minutes away from getting Aiyuk in August and I suspect they were pretty close at the draft too. Feels like things could have been very different.

d) Weidl. Credit to Khan for hiring him but if Weidl went tomorrow, would Khan still be following the same philosophies, or would he pivot to another personnel guru and follow his?

Lot of unknowns and circumstances. It's possible that Khan is the big difference making piece but also not for all sorts of reasons.

a) OK, but doesn't he deserve credit for that then? He successfully pitched a plan (one that I wholeheartedly agree with) and then started executing on that plan.

b) I'm not sure what else I could say other than what I've said. I'm sure every decision is a group decision to a certain extent, but these numbnuts lost their Pro Bowl C, Pro Bowl G, and starting LT in 1 season and then drafted a RB and pass catching TE with their first 2 picks. It's a far cry from going with R1 OT in back-to-back years, a C in R2, and signed 2 higher priced G in FA. I just can't wrap my head around Khan not playing a major role in that sudden change of philosophy.

c) Not really interested going into what if's.

d) Bringing in smart people and listening to their input is a positive for a manager if you ask me. We've all been bitching about Tomlin doing the opposite for like a decade. If/when Weidl leaves and Khan brings in a bunch of dummies or starts listening to the wrong people, then we can criticize him.

 

[Peat]

a) OK, but doesn't he deserve credit for that then? He successfully pitched a plan (one that I wholeheartedly agree with) and then started executing on that plan.

b) I'm not sure what else I could say other than what I've said. I'm sure every decision is a group decision to a certain extent, but these numbnuts lost their Pro Bowl C, Pro Bowl G, and starting LT in 1 season and then drafted a RB and pass catching TE with their first 2 picks. It's a far cry from going with R1 OT in back-to-back years, a C in R2, and signed 2 higher priced G in FA. I just can't wrap my head around Khan not playing a major role in that sudden change of philosophy.

c) Not really interested going into what if's.

d) Bringing in smart people and listening to their input is a positive for a manager if you ask me. We've all been bitching about Tomlin doing the opposite for like a decade. If/when Weidl leaves and Khan brings in a bunch of dummies or starts listening to the wrong people, then we can criticize him.

a) Maybe. Maybe he just pitched the plan he'd already heard being put into place back to them. No way of knowing.

b) For me, it is very easy to imagine someone trying to fix something on the cheap, then getting serious about it when it doesn't work, without outside input.

c) Fair, but this whole thing is inherently speculative

d) It is a positive, but I'll wait to see if it's repeatable and part of him being a driver for good rather than just a coincidence. I'm not looking to criticise him, I'm simply a miserable bastard who'll wait before doling out too much praise either.

 

[The Old Master]

WR, CB, OL, and a Cam replacement are more important than RB but The Deuce is going to push us down the wrong path again undoubtedly

I agree, but I don't want them to miss on what's available because they are forcing a pick to fill a need.