OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: 5 and 2 Justin who? Hand the Fields to Wilson

bigdaddyk88

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Apr 21, 2019
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So basically if Pickens is out there, we are announcing "hey, we're gonna throw it"

Seems idiotic, but the fish always rots at the head...
The ravens literally have been telegraphing the play with Hill or Henry. If hill is in they are throwing with Henry they are running it. Could be the cowboys who can’t run it and are Lamb and bust.
 

WickedWrister

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To be honest, I wasn’t pounding the table for Smith either. I wanted the McVay disciple, Zac Robinson, who got the OC job in Atlanta.

But I can’t be surprised or get upset when Arthur Smith does Arthur Smith things. This is going to be a low volume passing offense. He simply loves condensed formations and going multiple TE or RB instead of WR.

I just don’t think having Pickens on the field for another 10-15 snaps a game blocking is the solution to our problems. Let Darnell do that.
 
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Buddy Bizarre

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The ravens literally have been telegraphing the play with Hill or Henry. If hill is in they are throwing with Henry they are running it. Could be the cowboys who can’t run it and are Lamb and bust.

Oh cool- that's refreshing to know.
When will Lamar Jackson and Lamb be joining the Steelers?

This is the equivalent of "If your friend jumped off a bridge..."
 

T1K

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To be honest, I wasn’t pounding the table for Smith either. I wanted the McVay disciple, Zac Robinson, who got the OC job in Atlanta.

But I can’t be surprised or get upset when Arthur Smith does Arthur Smith things. This is going to be a low volume passing offense. He simply loves condensed formations and going multiple TE or RB instead of WR.

I just don’t think having Pickens on the field for another 10-15 snaps a game blocking is the solution to our problems. Let Darnell do that.
I also highly doubt Pickens being off the field “tips off” teams that it’s a run or a pass. That’s one of those narratives that seems very easy to say, but the stats may not necessarily support that. If there’s a clear split in rushing efficiency when Pickens is on/off the field, then sure, but I haven’t seen anything like that yet. It would probably take at least half a season for that to be sticky at all.
 
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Buddy Bizarre

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I also highly doubt Pickens being off the field “tips off” teams that it’s a run or a pass. That’s one of those narratives that seems very easy to say, but the stats may not necessarily support that. If there’s a clear split in rushing efficiency when Pickens is on/off the field, then sure, but I haven’t seen anything like that yet. It would probably take at least half a season for that to be sticky at all.

For arguments sake, lets agree that what you stated is true: Pickens on the field doesn't tip run v pass.

But if you are a DC and don't see Pickens on the field, are you afraid of VJ? Are you going to double him?

Of course not, you'll run man and allow your CB to erase him easily.

To put it succinctly, Pickens being off the field is a personnel matchup win for the defense. He is the only thing that scares DC's. Why you'd voluntarily remove that threat is quite a head scratcher...
 

Peat

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I mean, yeah, a lot of this is just Smith things combined with Tomlin things. But them being predictable doesn't mean I won't point at where it can't be better. I'm not raging or anything about it, but I'm not going to call myself happy. I'm not going to be happy with the team until I can see it's definitely on the path to being a really good offence.

And yeah these things take time... but there's rookie QBs balling out and that's just as difficult to get going. So... a couple of weeks grace, fine. Now I expect things to happen. We want to say 20 vs the Chargers is quite good considering, fair enough. But it needs to be sustained and pushed and improved.
 
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WickedWrister

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I also highly doubt Pickens being off the field “tips off” teams that it’s a run or a pass. That’s one of those narratives that seems very easy to say, but the stats may not necessarily support that. If there’s a clear split in rushing efficiency when Pickens is on/off the field, then sure, but I haven’t seen anything like that yet. It would probably take at least half a season for that to be sticky at all.
Yeah I'm not sure where I could even find that information, probably behind a paywall somewhere.

Our early down pass frequency skews towards the bottom of the league but it's not like outlier low. There's like 9 teams running it more than us in these scenarios.

This graph shows the specific down and distances we're in and our actual vs expected pass frequency.

1727459167043.png


For arguments sake, lets agree that what you stated is true: Pickens on the field doesn't tip run v pass.

But if you are a DC and don't see Pickens on the field, are you afraid of VJ? Are you going to double him?

Of course not, you'll run man and allow your CB to erase him easily.

To put it succinctly, Pickens being off the field is a personnel matchup win for the defense. He is the only thing that scares DC's. Why you'd voluntarily remove that threat is quite a head scratcher...
I think it depends what we're trying to accomplish on the play. Pass? Sure, there's no reason he shouldn't be out there. And he has been on 95% of pass plays. But in other situations, Smith has a clear preference for how he wants to do things and that does not involve WR's. This is like complaining about Pittsburgh being cloudy.

Ironically, per 2023 PFF grades, our two highest graded run blocking WR's were Calvin Austin (6th) and Scotty Miller (21st). Pickens 33rd, Van Jefferson 100th.

I mean, yeah, a lot of this is just Smith things combined with Tomlin things. But them being predictable doesn't mean I won't point at where it can't be better. I'm not raging or anything about it, but I'm not going to call myself happy. I'm not going to be happy with the team until I can see it's definitely on the path to being a really good offence.

And yeah these things take time... but there's rookie QBs balling out and that's just as difficult to get going. So... a couple of weeks grace, fine. Now I expect things to happen. We want to say 20 vs the Chargers is quite good considering, fair enough. But it needs to be sustained and pushed and improved.
It's funny, if Najee doesn't get tackled at the one yard line or we punch it in for 27 pts rather than kneel it out, I feel like nobody is saying anything about the offense this week lol.

I've said it before, but the two biggest improvements the team needs to make is the early down rush efficiency and red zone efficiency. We're dead last in RZ efficiency, granted were talking a sample size of 8 trips and as previously mentioned, we ran clock out in one of those trips so it should really be 7.
 

DanielPlainview

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The problem with analytics is it completely lacks context. If every QB was running the same system with the same coaching and the same talent level around them, the data would be more reliable. Because that’s not the case, it shouldn’t really be used for much of anything.

This team needs to upgrade the WR position if it’s going to make a run this year. Especially if Tomlin is going to Boomer Bury Roman Wilson. Hopkins would be solid. Gabe Davis is probably a better scheme fit. Working out Michael Thomas should be on the table.
 

Buddy Bizarre

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I think it depends what we're trying to accomplish on the play. Pass? Sure, there's no reason he shouldn't be out there. And he has been on 95% of pass plays. But in other situations, Smith has a clear preference for how he wants to do things and that does not involve WR's. This is like complaining about Pittsburgh being cloudy.

Ironically, per 2023 PFF grades, our two highest graded run blocking WR's were Calvin Austin (6th) and Scotty Miller (21st). Pickens 33rd, Van Jefferson 100th.

Yes, but unlike the weather Mike Tomlin can direct Smith to say "You know what, why don't we put Pickens out there more?"

1 thing is controllable and the other is not. But don't get me started on Tomlin's lack of attention to details, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. He's got a long history of not addressing things even after it repeatedly bites him in the ass. When things go wrong he can throw his hands up and say "Well that's not my job".
 

WickedWrister

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Yes, but unlike the weather Mike Tomlin can direct Smith to say "You know what, why don't we put Pickens out there more?"

1 thing is controllable and the other is not. But don't get me started on Tomlin's lack of attention to details, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. He's got a long history of not addressing things even after it repeatedly bites him in the ass. When things go wrong he can throw his hands up and say "Well that's not my job".
I get what you're saying, I just don't have a major issue with it because Pickens hasn't demonstrated a willingness to bust his ass on every play. Last year he literally said, "I wasn’t blocking because I didn’t want to get injured". This ain't Hines Ward we're talking about. The injury prevention concerns are reasonable to me too. The last thing this team needs is him missing time because he got rolled up on by another player.

I don't want to sound like I'm defending Arthur Smith or Tomlin here, because they're already doing some stupid shit and it's going to burn us eventually, this just isn't the bone that I have to pick with them.
 
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T1K

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For arguments sake, lets agree that what you stated is true: Pickens on the field doesn't tip run v pass.

But if you are a DC and don't see Pickens on the field, are you afraid of VJ? Are you going to double him?

Of course not, you'll run man and allow your CB to erase him easily.

To put it succinctly, Pickens being off the field is a personnel matchup win for the defense. He is the only thing that scares DC's. Why you'd voluntarily remove that threat is quite a head scratcher...
This is a fair rebuttal, but I still believe it’s a stretch to say a WR has any impact on rushing efficiency - not just for the Steelers but across the league. This will certainly be something I’m keeping an eye on ROS because it’s something we won’t really know the answer to without manually charting. I’m not gonna chart notes but we might find the answer anecdotally from just watching.
 

bigdaddyk88

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Apr 21, 2019
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For arguments sake, lets agree that what you stated is true: Pickens on the field doesn't tip run v pass.

But if you are a DC and don't see Pickens on the field, are you afraid of VJ? Are you going to double him?

Of course not, you'll run man and allow your CB to erase him easily.

To put it succinctly, Pickens being off the field is a personnel matchup win for the defense. He is the only thing that scares DC's. Why you'd voluntarily remove that threat is quite a head scratcher...
We only have 2 guys load up to stop right now there’s a reason why they went heavy for Aiyuk and we are still monitoring the wr trade market. Harris and Picken. The reason Ca3 had the big game is cause the chargers focused on Gp. There was blown coverage where he was open for a td but Fields missed him. Against the chargers GP Najaee Muth and Ca3 accounted for 17 of the 31 passing attempts
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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It's funny, if Najee doesn't get tackled at the one yard line or we punch it in for 27 pts rather than kneel it out, I feel like nobody is saying anything about the offense this week lol.

I've said it before, but the two biggest improvements the team needs to make is the early down rush efficiency and red zone efficiency. We're dead last in RZ efficiency, granted were talking a sample size of 8 trips and as previously mentioned, we ran clock out in one of those trips so it should really be 7.

Maybe this doesn't come up, aye. But a lot of the underlying numbers getting pointed at would still be there.

And more importantly... it didn't happen. There's always room for optimism about the Steelers' offence over what nearly happened. After four or so years of Tomlin without an elite QB I've stopped being optimistic and want to see it because it's so uphill. I mean a point in case is the early down rush efficiency. The easiest way to get a fix here is to accept this team isn't the running behemoth they want, that they can do some decent things passing, and mix it up more. Tomlin/Smith want to grind teams down though so that's probably off the menu.

And maybe that's the big difference here. Some people are happy measuring the team inside the lines they've set for themselves. Some aren't.
 

WickedWrister

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Jul 25, 2008
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Maybe this doesn't come up, aye. But a lot of the underlying numbers getting pointed at would still be there.

And more importantly... it didn't happen. There's always room for optimism about the Steelers' offence over what nearly happened. After four or so years of Tomlin without an elite QB I've stopped being optimistic and want to see it because it's so uphill. I mean a point in case is the early down rush efficiency. The easiest way to get a fix here is to accept this team isn't the running behemoth they want, that they can do some decent things passing, and mix it up more. Tomlin/Smith want to grind teams down though so that's probably off the menu.

And maybe that's the big difference here. Some people are happy measuring the team inside the lines they've set for themselves. Some aren't.
I think we saw some steps towards that last week with the 32 pass attempts for Fields being a season high.

You say it's measuring inside the lines, but I'd say it's just being realistic. I don't know if we have the talent to be anything more than a league average offense, but league average would still be an upgrade over what we had last year. Something like 21ppg is a reasonable goal for the way this team is currently constructed, and with our defense we'll win a lot of games if we can score that many points.

Side note about increasing the rush efficiency - I feel like we could be using Fields more in this facet of the game. There was maybe one play against the Chargers that I think was going to be a designed QB run and there was a miscommunication by the OL and the play got blown up. Maybe we will this week with Warren out.
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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I think we saw some steps towards that last week with the 32 pass attempts for Fields being a season high.

You say it's measuring inside the lines, but I'd say it's just being realistic. I don't know if we have the talent to be anything more than a league average offense, but league average would still be an upgrade over what we had last year. Something like 21ppg is a reasonable goal for the way this team is currently constructed, and with our defense we'll win a lot of games if we can score that many points.

Side note about increasing the rush efficiency - I feel like we could be using Fields more in this facet of the game. There was maybe one play against the Chargers that I think was going to be a designed QB run and there was a miscommunication by the OL and the play got blown up. Maybe we will this week with Warren out.

Toe-may-toe tuh-mah-toe imo.

In any case - I thought we saw a step in terms of what Fields can do. I don't know we saw a step in what the team is willing to do on a weekly basis.

As for being a better rushing team... do you mean using Fields more, or using Fields better? Because Fields' 9.3 rushing attempts per game is pretty in line with his last two years in Chicago so I don't know that he can be used more. The 3.2 yards per attempt is, well, bobbins, driven by him only getting 1.8 yards before contact.

Although if we're talking first down, Fields' yards per carry there is way better than the running backs... and interestingly, Harris is way better than Warren and Patterson. Actually, now I look at it, the interesting nit of how much Warren has fallen off is a definite something for the team to solve to get better.
 

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