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OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: 5 and 2 Justin who? Hand the Fields to Wilson

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xlm34 said:
If you add in two plays that got called back (Pickens OPI and the Pickens catch that got called back for holding), the NY/A is top 10 in the league.

I get that this sample size is all we’ve got to go on, but it’s small enough that one or two plays can drastically change things.
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The thing is while this season's sample is small, the sample of Tomlin without elite Ben is pretty large at this point. It's very difficult to believe that he's going to now embrace taking offensive risks because of the potential rewards rather than only sanctioning them when he runs out of options. Take the Chargers game. PFR credits Fields with attempting two deep passes. One was at the end of the first half chasing field goal position, the other was on a 3rd and 13.

And while there's very good reasons for being conservative right now, the thing about Tomlin is there'll always be reasons to be conservative rather than aggressive, and it feels like he'll always take the reasons to be conservative.

And there are reasons to be aggressive. The run game just got stuffed for five quarters between the Broncos and Chargers games, and I think it might have gone to six if the Chargers' morale didn't collapse when Herbert got injured. They need the passing game to step up and Fields' passing strength is still his deep ball. I don't know whether the Colts* are the team to challenge that but it'd be a great moment to sharpen the steel because the Cowboys will.

We'll see what happens but I can't say I'm optimistic.


*There should be an NFL Triple Crown for beating all of the Broncos/Chargers/Colts in one season.
 
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T1K said:
I don’t mind the approach they’ve taken so far as it’s a small sample and they were figuring out what their offense is. I’m disappointed in the rushing efficiency the most, but I’m optimistic they can turn that around with time. I feel like this offense is much better than Canada/Pickett, so many 3 & outs with the old regime. This week is a big test for them to show their potential as the Colts defense is pretty bad.
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It's marginally better. First downs are good, but you need to score points. They haven't really done that, granted 20 points against the Chargers is respectable.

I was one of the few who were happy with the Smith hire and I've also said both Wilson and Fields are better than Pickett. So I would love for them not only to be good, but to be proven right. But it's been disappointing to this point and I don't really trust Tomlin to get and stay out of the way of the offense.
 
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Peat said:
The thing is while this season's sample is small, the sample of Tomlin without elite Ben is pretty large at this point. It's very difficult to believe that he's going to now embrace taking offensive risks because of the potential rewards rather than only sanctioning them when he runs out of options. Take the Chargers game. PFR credits Fields with attempting two deep passes. One was at the end of the first half chasing field goal position, the other was on a 3rd and 13.

And while there's very good reasons for being conservative right now, the thing about Tomlin is there'll always be reasons to be conservative rather than aggressive, and it feels like he'll always take the reasons to be conservative.

And there are reasons to be aggressive. The run game just got stuffed for five quarters between the Broncos and Chargers games, and I think it might have gone to six if the Chargers' morale didn't collapse when Herbert got injured. They need the passing game to step up and Fields' passing strength is still his deep ball. I don't know whether the Colts* are the team to challenge that but it'd be a great moment to sharpen the steel because the Cowboys will.

We'll see what happens but I can't say I'm optimistic.
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Exactly.

Peat said:
*There should be an NFL Triple Crown for beating all of the Broncos/Chargers/Colts in one season.
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In a row, too!
 
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Unfortunately, I think the Colts game will continue to be more conservative ground and pound. As a defense, they've allowed the 2nd most rushing yards in the league. And I don't trust Richardson to come out and score on like the first 3 drives and put us in a negative gamescript.
 
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Double-Shift Lasse said:
Agreed and this affects team play as well. Not only are guys not in football shape, but they haven't had as much time to assimilate coaching, scheme etc, not to mention learn the particulars of their teammates, what they like to do, what theiir tendencies are, how they're going to respond when faced with certain things.
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If some stat nerd would like to lay out the avg NFL ppg week by week and compare it over the past 4 seasons it might be interested. I'd theorize that PPG go up as the season goes on bc of familiarity/being in sync.
 
pistolpete11 said:
"Forced to pass" is part of the Tomlinball that I'm railing against, but more importantly it's the type of passes they are throwing. I'm fine being a run heavy offense that picks up big chunks in the passing game. It's the 49ers blueprint and it's what Smith did in Tennessee. It's a feasible way to score points.

However, that is not really what we are getting. It's been marginally better with Smith/Fields than Canada/Pickett, but the results are essentially the same to this point.
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I see your point, but the season's story has yet to be written.

I don't agree with Smith's overall philosophy, but you cannot argue he's a credentialed OC who know what he wants to do and can execute it.

It's only been a few games, but I'm seeing baby signs they are building to something greater. Believe we haven't even seen a sliver of Smith's playbook. I'm encouraged for the first time in about 15 years
 
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If you don't like this conservative approach and a largely risk averse philosophy you're very likely not gonna like this team. It's not my preference but it's better than last years team before Rudolph.
 
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WickedWrister said:
Unfortunately, I think the Colts game will continue to be more conservative ground and pound. As a defense, they've allowed the 2nd most rushing yards in the league. And I don't trust Richardson to come out and score on like the first 3 drives and put us in a negative gamescript.
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Why is that unfortunate? It is the way to beat a team with a bad run defense, especially since we have one legit WR, a reclamation project at QB, and an inexperienced offensive line.
 
TooManyHumans said:
Why is that unfortunate? It is the way to beat a team with a bad run defense, especially since we have one legit WR, a reclamation project at QB, and an inexperienced offensive line.
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Because by performing the same routine, you don't challenge yourself.

If I bench press X lbs repeatedly and don't even add 5 more pounds do you think I'll ever get stronger?

This is an immutable rule of life. It even goes back to biblical times. Hell Tomlin says it himself: Iron sharpens iron. But what he says and what he does are 2 radically different things (like we don't live in our fears)

Do you want mediocrity by continually doing the same thing or do you want to possibly get better where it means taking a slight step back? I know what Tomlin will do...
 
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TooManyHumans said:
Why is that unfortunate? It is the way to beat a team with a bad run defense, especially since we have one legit WR, a reclamation project at QB, and an inexperienced offensive line.
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I guess unfortunate isn't the right word, but this is in the context of people wanting a more aggressive offense.

And I kind of agree that asking Fields to drop back and pass 45 times is probably a recipe for disaster with the way this team is constructed.

We'll see what happens when this team goes down by 2+ scores early in a game and is required to take more risk.
 
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Peat said:
The thing is while this season's sample is small, the sample of Tomlin without elite Ben is pretty large at this point. It's very difficult to believe that he's going to now embrace taking offensive risks because of the potential rewards rather than only sanctioning them when he runs out of options. Take the Chargers game. PFR credits Fields with attempting two deep passes. One was at the end of the first half chasing field goal position, the other was on a 3rd and 13.

And while there's very good reasons for being conservative right now, the thing about Tomlin is there'll always be reasons to be conservative rather than aggressive, and it feels like he'll always take the reasons to be conservative.

And there are reasons to be aggressive. The run game just got stuffed for five quarters between the Broncos and Chargers games, and I think it might have gone to six if the Chargers' morale didn't collapse when Herbert got injured. They need the passing game to step up and Fields' passing strength is still his deep ball. I don't know whether the Colts* are the team to challenge that but it'd be a great moment to sharpen the steel because the Cowboys will.

We'll see what happens but I can't say I'm optimistic.


*There should be an NFL Triple Crown for beating all of the Broncos/Chargers/Colts in one season.
Click to expand...

You don’t take deep shots just to take deep shots though. For the Chargers game, my questions would be :

1.) Did the Chargers play to prevent the deep ball, knowing that’s something Fields does well? Was the whole plan basically if he beats us throwing those intermediate then so be it? If so, I look at it the same way I looked at week 1 when there was concern that they didn’t use the middle. Why do what the other team wants you to do?

2.) Were deep shots called and Fields decided not to throw/receiver didn’t get open/something else? I’d imagine yes.

As far as Tomlin, yeah I won’t argue that he tends to be conservative. But his sample size without elite Ben also comes with OCs that didn’t belong at the NFL level in Fichtner and Canada (which is a whole different discussion that I have no interest in getting into).
 
Buddy Bizarre said:
Because by performing the same routine, you don't challenge yourself.

If I bench press X lbs repeatedly and don't even add 5 more pounds do you think I'll ever get stronger?

This is an immutable rule of life. It even goes back to biblical times. Hell Tomlin says it himself: Iron sharpens iron. But what he says and what he does are 2 radically different things (like we don't live in our fears)

Do you want mediocrity by continually doing the same thing or do you want to possibly get better where it means taking a slight step back? I know what Tomlin will do...
Click to expand...
I'm OK with this style of offense and gameplan if we can just run the ball better on early downs. That's what's preventing this offense from putting up more points right now, especially since we lean so much into it.
 
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3-0 and still ppl are complaining, not surprising. Worried about Style points more than the end result.

There'll undoubtedly be times for legit complaints, currently though not very many. Except not getting a NO2 WR.
 
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Buddy Bizarre said:
I see your point, but the season's story has yet to be written.

I don't agree with Smith's overall philosophy, but you cannot argue he's a credentialed OC who know what he wants to do and can execute it.

It's only been a few games, but I'm seeing baby signs they are building to something greater. Believe we haven't even seen a sliver of Smith's playbook. I'm encouraged for the first time in about 15 years
Click to expand...
I don't question Smith at all. As I said in another post, I was one of the few that LIKED the hire :laugh:

I don't think Smith's philosophy is The Way, The Truth, and The Light or anything, but a) I think there's more than one way to skin a cat and b) it makes sense given how the Steelers were/are built.

The issue that I am raising is more about Tomlin getting in the way, dumbing it down, and making it even more conservative than it already is.
 
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Ryder71 said:
3-0 and still ppl are complaining, not surprising. Worried about Style points more than the end result.

There'll undoubtedly be times for legit complaints, currently though not very many. Except not getting a NO2 WR.
Click to expand...

Who said anything about "style points"?
We're pointing out that to win in the playoffs, you have to be multifaceted. Tomlin hasn't learned that lesson in at least 7 years (the last playoff win)
 
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Buddy Bizarre said:
I see your point, but the season's story has yet to be written.

I don't agree with Smith's overall philosophy, but you cannot argue he's a credentialed OC who know what he wants to do and can execute it.

It's only been a few games, but I'm seeing baby signs they are building to something greater. Believe we haven't even seen a sliver of Smith's playbook. I'm encouraged for the first time in about 15 years
Click to expand...

Smith had Ridder in the top 10 for intended air yards per pass. The philosophy we're currently seeing has marked differences to Smith's philosophy in past stops... but not so many from Tomlin's.

I mostly trust Smith's execution but I think we're seeing Tomlin continue to dictate the offence's grand strategy and it's tough to be optimistic about that.

xlm34 said:
You don’t take deep shots just to take deep shots though. For the Chargers game, my questions would be :

1.) Did the Chargers play to prevent the deep ball, knowing that’s something Fields does well? Was the whole plan basically if he beats us throwing those intermediate then so be it? If so, I look at it the same way I looked at week 1 when there was concern that they didn’t use the middle. Why do what the other team wants you to do?

2.) Were deep shots called and Fields decided not to throw/receiver didn’t get open/something else? I’d imagine yes.

As far as Tomlin, yeah I won’t argue that he tends to be conservative. But his sample size without elite Ben also comes with OCs that didn’t belong at the NFL level in Fichtner and Canada (which is a whole different discussion that I have no interest in getting into).
Click to expand...

There's two answers to the first part of that.

The first is I've seen this offence continue to run into defences that are praying for it so often, and I've seen OCs scheme open things for their best guys' strengths often enough, that I think this is a matter of desire rather than taking what is offered. They could find deep shots vs the Broncos when they knew the refs threw lots of PI calls, they could have found them here. Maybe I'd feel different for an All 22 breakdown but just looking at the highlights, I see a lot of the Chargers lining up in 2 deep but immediately going to 1 deep. I think if they wanted to, or needed to, Smith could have found ways to exploit that... but they didn't.

The second is I remember during the SB, the commentators saying that Shanahan has the 49ers deliberately attack stacked boxes in part to get used to doing it because they'll have to do it when it really matters. Well, that's where I am on throwing the deep ball here. The Steelers should be doing it for the sake of doing it, because the games will come where they have to - and against teams that know it's coming - and I'd like them to have done it regularly. A proper growth mentality for this offence involves them doing the hard and risky stuff so they can get in reps.

And I'd rather the team lose a couple of games now trying to get better rather than have the same old story once they meet a team that forces them into a track meet and they've no idea. If people want to say the Chargers weren't that team? Fair enough. But the Colts, minus their best DL, when the team is 3-0 and their confidence is cresting? If not then, when?

Finally, re the OCs - I will simply make the point that since the Steelers with Tomlin hired those guys, either he disagreed with you about them belonging so that shouldn't be the why of the conservatism, or there's something really rotten in the Steelers.
 
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Buddy Bizarre said:
Who said anything about "style points"?
We're pointing out that to win in the playoffs, you have to be multifaceted. Tomlin hasn't learned that lesson in at least 7 years (the last playoff win)
Click to expand...
But we're dealing with a lot of moving parts. Whole new QB room with RW not playing, new OC, weak WR room. Injuries and new personnel on the offensive line. There's been a lot of turnover. Logic would suggest barring injury that we should get better as the season unfolds. And undoubtedly we'll need to. But we're off to a good start despite all these variables/obstacles.
 
Peat said:
Smith had Ridder in the top 10 for intended air yards per pass. The philosophy we're currently seeing has marked differences to Smith's philosophy in past stops... but not so many from Tomlin's.

I mostly trust Smith's execution but I think we're seeing Tomlin continue to dictate the offence's grand strategy and it's tough to be optimistic about that.



There's two answers to the first part of that.

The first is I've seen this offence continue to run into defences that are praying for it so often, and I've seen OCs scheme open things for their best guys' strengths often enough, that I think this is a matter of desire rather than taking what is offered. They could find deep shots vs the Broncos when they knew the refs threw lots of PI calls, they could have found them here. Maybe I'd feel different for an All 22 breakdown but just looking at the highlights, I see a lot of the Chargers lining up in 2 deep but immediately going to 1 deep. I think if they wanted to, or needed to, Smith could have found ways to exploit that... but they didn't.

The second is I remember during the SB, the commentators saying that Shanahan has the 49ers deliberately attack stacked boxes in part to get used to doing it because they'll have to do it when it really matters. Well, that's where I am on throwing the deep ball here. The Steelers should be doing it for the sake of doing it, because the games will come where they have to - and against teams that know it's coming - and I'd like them to have done it regularly. A proper growth mentality for this offence involves them doing the hard and risky stuff so they can get in reps.

And I'd rather the team lose a couple of games now trying to get better rather than have the same old story once they meet a team that forces them into a track meet and they've no idea. If people want to say the Chargers weren't that team? Fair enough. But the Colts, minus their best DL, when the team is 3-0 and their confidence is cresting? If not then, when?

Finally, re the OCs - I will simply make the point that since the Steelers with Tomlin hired those guys, either he disagreed with you about them belonging so that shouldn't be the why of the conservatism, or there's something really rotten in the Steelers.
Click to expand...

I just could not disagree with this more. There’s more ways to move the ball through the air than just chucking it deep. There are more ways to score points than just chucking it deep. And if we’re saying that we need Fields to work on his weaknesses now so that he could improve for when it matters? That weakness isn’t the deep ball. His weakness is what we saw him do against the Chargers.
 
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