OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: 5 and 2 Justin who? Hand the Fields to Wilson

[pistolpete11]

I take issue we were "doing just fine" with Fields at QB. That's how you get mediocre records of 8 to 9 wins each year.

His play was just above KP levels. I am not fine with what JF has to offer long term. He was a great stop gap type guy, but I'm all aboard the Wilson train hell or high water

I think Fields was pretty handily better than Pickett if for no other reason than his legs. Could also be the OC situation, I suppose.

But I totally agree that Russ has taken them to the next level.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think Fields was getting better. I get where you are coming from, but I don't think his progression was stagnant. He was doing better every game. Would the wheels have fallen off? Who knows.

Russ has won this team 2 games, that much I do know and Fields probably wouldn't have won those. As I sit here, I really do hope these guys like each other as much as it seems and Fields is kind of cool just waiting and learning.

Fields talent is exceptional. I agree some of his deficiencies they are always going to kind of be there. That being said, he's worth waiting for and taking a chance on, IMO. You don't find QBs that can run like him very often. We should keep that.

This is where money in sports causes problems.

Professionally, I think backing up and learning from Russ is the best situation for him....but some team is going to throw starter money at him. It would take a very principled, very ego-less individual to turn down multiple millions of dollars to be a backup.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

This is where money in sports causes problems.

Professionally, I think backing up and learning from Russ is the best situation for him....but some team is going to throw starter money at him. It would take a very principled, very ego-less individual to turn down multiple millions of dollars to be a backup.

I highly doubt he gets starter money. I am not even sure he gets a minshew 2-24. He is clearly a back up like Mason and Kp

You may have me confused with someone else. I never made comments about the Strength of Schedule.

All I know is this offense looks significantly better with Wilson at QB vs JF with the exact same guys surrounding him. That's a fact, regardless of opponents

Yes he is hiding the lack of wr 2 because he disturbed the ball to multiple guys. It’s all about the playoffs

 

[xlm34]

Yeah I think Fields will get some decent offers this offseason and definitely wouldn’t blame him for wanting a quicker chance at starting.

He should take a good look at his time in Chicago to see the grass isn’t always greener. His coach and OC both got canned mid season.

 

[pistolpete11]

I highly doubt he gets starter money. I am not even sure he gets a minshew 2-24. He is clearly a back up like Mason and Kp

He'll get more than Minshew. Younger, higher pedigree, and granted in a partial season as a starter, but better stats than Minshew had.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

He'll get more than Minshew. Younger, higher pedigree, and granted in a partial season as a starter, but better stats than Minshew had.

Minishew has 2 3,000 plus passing seasons and a 20 td passing season. Fields still had a fumble every start this season

 

[Peat]

Of course, but that was obvious from the moment they hired him.

I don't know how I became this board's biggest Artie Smith fan, but it's just painfully obvious to me that he's a great coach. What he got out of Tannehill, winning that many games with the mess of QB's in Atlanta, and now revitalizing Wilson and Fields...it's not a matter of if he leaves for a HC gig, it's when he leaves for a HC gig. If I was a team looking for a new HC, he'd be near the top of my list, too.

I do think he should be a bit careful with the situation he walks into, though. If he doesn't have more success the next time, he might get put into that "great coordinator, terrible HC" box.

It wasn't obvious to me he'd be right back out of the door ASAP. Maybe at some point, but not first opportunity. Maybe I was being foolish.

As for his coaching - in terms of him being a HC, I am less interested in how many games he won with a bad QB room, and why he ended up with one. The little Falcon input into the idea of him becoming a HC again on this points the finger very firmly at him for Mariota and Ridder, and adds that in Atlanta it was 50/50 control of the roster between GM and HC. His public stance on Fields vs Wilson doesn't improve my trust levels either. The dude can clearly get players to tick, but I'm not sure he's the right guy to get the players. And judging from the Atlanta fans, I'm not sure he's the right guy to stand in front of everyone and represent the org either. I'm critical of Tomlin, but he was clearly made to be a leader. Smith... not so sure.

eta: Currently reading Breer's mailbag (SD linked to it cos he was talking about the chances of keeping Wilson and Fields) and he talks about the sort of HC that Chicago needs, and he makes the case that given the situation Chicago are in, they don't need an offensive guru to get the best out of Williams, they need an organiser and leader to get the ship back in shape and manage up on what needs to be done. That makes sense to me, and it looks the case in most of the vacancies coming up - and I'm not sure Smith is that guy.

I think similar to the argument you make for it being best for Fields to sit behind Wilson, I think Smith needs to spend a while learning how Tomlin functions as a corporate CEO and how the Steelers function before trying to be a guy who rebuilds an org.

I think Fields was getting better. I get where you are coming from, but I don't think his progression was stagnant. He was doing better every game. Would the wheels have fallen off? Who knows.

His final game vs the Raiders was his worst throwing game of the year in terms of raw stats, and the penultimate vs Dallas maybe the second - and arguably worse given how Dallas has fared this year.

This is where money in sports causes problems.

Professionally, I think backing up and learning from Russ is the best situation for him....but some team is going to throw starter money at him. It would take a very principled, very ego-less individual to turn down multiple millions of dollars to be a backup.

Neither Mayfield nor Darnold got a lot of money to be bridge starters in his situation, and both guys had better pedigrees than him. Ditto Trubisky. In fact, Minshew got more to be a bridge starter than all of them somehow. But the point stands that being a bridge starter isn't all that much better paid than being a back-up, and sometimes less.

So, could be wrong, but if past seasons are a precedent it won't be about the money unless someone decides to give Fields the money that Mayfield got after he had a solid starting year in Tampa, even though Fields hasn't had that season. Which would be wild to me, particularly after nobody wanted him to be their definite starter last off-season.

 

[WickedWrister]

 

[pistolpete11]

Minishew has 2 3,000 plus passing seasons and a 20 td passing season. Fields still had a fumble every start this season

His rating last year was 84.6. Fields this year is 93.3 plus he has the rushing ability. I don't care that he compiled some yards or that he threw for 20 TDs 4 years earlier and I don't think GM's would either.

 

[pistolpete11]

It wasn't obvious to me he'd be right back out of the door ASAP. Maybe at some point, but not first opportunity. Maybe I was being foolish.

As for his coaching - in terms of him being a HC, I am less interested in how many games he won with a bad QB room, and why he ended up with one. The little Falcon input into the idea of him becoming a HC again on this points the finger very firmly at him for Mariota and Ridder, and adds that in Atlanta it was 50/50 control of the roster between GM and HC. His public stance on Fields vs Wilson doesn't improve my trust levels either. The dude can clearly get players to tick, but I'm not sure he's the right guy to get the players. And judging from the Atlanta fans, I'm not sure he's the right guy to stand in front of everyone and represent the org either. I'm critical of Tomlin, but he was clearly made to be a leader. Smith... not so sure.

I think it's fair to question how much say he had in Mariota and Ridder. I did it yesterday, but you'd also have to investigate what other options he had. Maybe he was making the best out of a shitty situation? And with Ridder, at least they had enough sense to wait until the 3rd round to take him (coughPickettcough).

I was 50/50 on Fields vs. Wilson, but like 90% of the people on here and in the media were on his side. Tomlin made a gutsy call and deserves a ton of credit for it. But it's also a pretty unique situation, so I don't know how much that is going to factor into a HC gig.

As far as the face of the organization, I think it's kinda nonsense to be honest. It's the kinda thing that gets brought up when you're losing and completely ignored if you're winning. Was Belichick a great face for the organization? Or were they just the best team in the NFL for the better part of 2 decades?

 

[Peat]

His rating last year was 84.6. Fields this year is 93.3 plus he has the rushing ability. I don't care that he compiled some yards or that he threw for 20 TDs 4 years earlier and I don't think GM's would either.

Minshew had a 93.1 passer rating after his first two years in Jacksonville where he started 20 games, and that earned him three years as a back up.

Then he posts a worse passer rating than Fields in 2023 (although a far far higher QBR), but he gets a bizarrely high bridge starter deal while nobody wants Fields to be a starter despite Chicago's trade price getting beaten way down.

The NFL is weird and it's hard to say which performances they value. But I can't think of a recent case of someone getting paid off of Fields' last season.

I think it's fair to question how much say he had in Mariota and Ridder. I did it yesterday, but you'd also have to investigate what other options he had. Maybe he was making the best out of a shitty situation? And with Ridder, at least they had enough sense to wait until the 3rd round to take him (coughPickettcough).

I was 50/50 on Fields vs. Wilson, but like 90% of the people on here and in the media were on his side. Tomlin made a gutsy call and deserves a ton of credit for it. But it's also a pretty unique situation, so I don't know how much that is going to factor into a HC gig.

As far as the face of the organization, I think it's kinda nonsense to be honest. It's the kinda thing that gets brought up when you're losing and completely ignored if you're winning. Was Belichick a great face for the organization? Or were they just the best team in the NFL for the better part of 2 decades?

Winning cures all ills, but being able to present yourself in a way that commands the locker room's respect - both in your internal dealings with them and in the external dealings that will eventually feed their way back - has a lot to do with winning. It is why Tomlin is still where he is, his players respect who he is and would run through a brick wall for him. Smith is very clearly a respected co-ordinator, but being respected as a lieutenant and being respected as the man are different things.

And re the QBs - I don't know all the options available to him (although I think Atlanta's cap situation wasn't super friendly as a result of trading Ryan, although in itself not taking an opportunity to replace Ryan in the 2021 draft then trading him a year later raises questions) but three in a row tilts me to the simplest explanation of he makes bad choices at the position. I would have a particular focus on who pushed for Ridder to start in his second year when the season would show he clearly wasn't ready, which right now Atlanta fans seem to be pushing as being Smith.

 

[pistolpete11]

Neither Mayfield nor Darnold got a lot of money to be bridge starters in his situation, and both guys had better pedigrees than him. Ditto Trubisky. In fact, Minshew got more to be a bridge starter than all of them somehow. But the point stands that being a bridge starter isn't all that much better paid than being a back-up, and sometimes less.

So, could be wrong, but if past seasons are a precedent it won't be about the money unless someone decides to give Fields the money that Mayfield got after he had a solid starting year in Tampa, even though Fields hasn't had that season. Which would be wild to me, particularly after nobody wanted him to be their definite starter last off-season.

The season before Mayfield signed with the Bucs, he went a combined 2-8 as a starer and had a 79.0 rating. Even last season, he only had a 94.6 rating.

The small sample size will hold him back, but Fields has a 4-2 with a 93.3 rating + the rushing ability. If you extrapolate Fields stats as a starter this year including the rushing, is it that different than Mayfield last year? I'd agree it's dangerous to extrapolate on small sample sizes, although I do think it happens to a certain degree, but that's why he won't get $100M like Baker yet. I would not be at all surprised to see a team give him $15M x 2 or something, though. I certainly think he will get more than whatever Mayfield got the first time he signed with the Bucs, though.

 

[pistolpete11]

Minshew had a 93.1 passer rating after his first two years in Jacksonville where he started 20 games, and that earned him three years as a back up.

Then he posts a worse passer rating than Fields in 2023 (although a far far higher QBR), but he gets a bizarrely high bridge starter deal while nobody wants Fields to be a starter despite Chicago's trade price getting beaten way down.

The NFL is weird and it's hard to say which performances they value. But I can't think of a recent case of someone getting paid off of Fields' last season.

Fields 'last season' is this season and he's played well, is still relatively young, has a higher pedigree than Minshew, and has all the tools.

Winning cures all ills, but being able to present yourself in a way that commands the locker room's respect - both in your internal dealings with them and in the external dealings that will eventually feed their way back - has a lot to do with winning. It is why Tomlin is still where he is, his players respect who he is and would run through a brick wall for him. Smith is very clearly a respected co-ordinator, but being respected as a lieutenant and being respected as the man are different things.

And re the QBs - I don't know all the options available to him (although I think Atlanta's cap situation wasn't super friendly as a result of trading Ryan, although in itself not taking an opportunity to replace Ryan in the 2021 draft then trading him a year later raises questions) but three in a row tilts me to the simplest explanation of he makes bad choices at the position. I would have a particular focus on who pushed for Ridder to start in his second year when the season would show he clearly wasn't ready, which right now Atlanta fans seem to be pushing as being Smith.

Implying he doesn't command respect in the lockerroom is a very bizarre take. Putting aside how he got the roster he had, I don't know how you win 7 games a year with those QB's without commanding respect. Not to mention the work he's done as an OC.

Like I said, roster building is an open question. What he can get out of the players he has? That's a tough sell, dude.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

His rating last year was 84.6. Fields this year is 93.3 plus he has the rushing ability. I don't care that he compiled some yards or that he threw for 20 TDs 4 years earlier and I don't think GM's would either.

Fields had 5 passing tds when he was benched. He was being treated like a back up because 4 out of 6 starts he was under 160 yards passing and this is the best he has played in his career

 

[Peat]

The season before Mayfield signed with the Bucs, he went a combined 2-8 as a starer and had a 79.0 rating. Even last season, he only had a 94.6 rating.

The small sample size will hold him back, but Fields has a 4-2 with a 93.3 rating + the rushing ability. If you extrapolate Fields stats as a starter this year including the rushing, is it that different than Mayfield last year? I'd agree it's dangerous to extrapolate on small sample sizes, although I do think it happens to a certain degree, but that's why he won't get $100M like Baker yet. I would not be at all surprised to see a team give him $15M x 2 or something, though. I certainly think he will get more than whatever Mayfield got the first time he signed with the Bucs, though.

Fields 'last season' is this season and he's played well, is still relatively young, has a higher pedigree than Minshew, and has all the tools.

Right, yeah, sorry, should have said this season rather than last one.

We can agree he doesn't have the sample size for the second Mayfield deal, which was my main point.

Whether he gets the initial Mayfield deal, or an upgraded version of the Minshew deal, or even no starter deal at all... none of it would surprise me. I was sure that someone would trade for Fields to be a starter last off-season and after they didn't, I'm going to spend less time being sure on this. It's a massive grey area that comes down to how about five or so teams feel about the guy. Does he have the resume and skills to be the most in demand bridge starter this off-season? Potentially, yeah. But it doesn't feel certain to me.

Implying he doesn't command respect in the lockerroom is a very bizarre take. Putting aside how he got the roster he had, I don't know how you win 7 games a year with those QB's without commanding respect. Not to mention the work he's done as an OC.

Like I said, roster building is an open question. What he can get out of the players he has? That's a tough sell, dude.

He was the 30th ranked head coach in the last players survey. C+. I don't think believing he doesn't necessarily command locker room respect as a head coach is bizarre in light of that.

If we want to go down the results room, closing his last 5 games as HC as 1-4 - 4 of those games against teams with non-winning records at the time of play, including a loss to the Panthers - suggests he had lost them by the end.

Finally, for a HC, getting the most out of a limited roster matters far less to me than having the player evaluation skills to not have a limited roster. That's one of my big things for whether a guy is simply a good co-ordinator or a good HC. I agree it's an open question but that, that and the ability to be the man motivationally when everyone's looking at you and the weight of the world is on your shoulders, is what I am looking for to say the guy is a good HC in waiting and the guy I want.

And those two things are really open questions. The nuts and bolts and squeezing blood from a stone won't save a guy who's not got strengths in those areas.

eta: Plenty of Falcons fans still frothing at the mouth over the usage of their high draft choice playmakers too when we're talking about getting the most out of players. I dunno if they're right but that part of it is there too.

 

[pistolpete11]

Fields had 5 passing tds when he was benched. He was being treated like a back up because 4 out of 6 starts he was under 160 yards passing and this is the best he has played in his career

........................................................and 5 rushing TD's. He's a different type of QB, not disputing that.

 

[pistolpete11]

Right, yeah, sorry, should have said this season rather than last one.

We can agree he doesn't have the sample size for the second Mayfield deal, which was my main point.

Whether he gets the initial Mayfield deal, or an upgraded version of the Minshew deal, or even no starter deal at all... none of it would surprise me. I was sure that someone would trade for Fields to be a starter last off-season and after they didn't, I'm going to spend less time being sure on this. It's a massive grey area that comes down to how about five or so teams feel about the guy. Does he have the resume and skills to be the most in demand bridge starter this off-season? Potentially, yeah. But it doesn't feel certain to me.

Well, not sure how much I believe it, but there were reports other teams were interested and even offering more than the Steelers, but the Bears did him a solid and sent him to his preferred destination.

And again, I think this season has changed the perception around him, even in a small sample size. Look even just at Steeler fans, heck even this board. It changed drastically.

BTW, Mayfield got $4M in his first year in Tampa. Fields is going to blow that out of the water. He's not going to get $20M, but I think he clears Minshew. Or at least he'll have those type of offers. Maybe he learned his lesson in Chicago and will leave money on the table for a better situation.

 

[Peat]

Well, not sure how much I believe it, but there were reports other teams were interested and even offering more than the Steelers, but the Bears did him a solid and sent him to his preferred destination.

I believe this.

I don't believe that his preferred destination wouldn't be the guaranteed starter slot if available. The one exception is maybe Vegas if he really hated the idea of working with Getsy again.

I also find it quite unlikely that a team that had Fields picked out as a definite starter would bid so low that the Bears still went with honouring Fields request rather than going "actually". I believe it was rumoured the Eagles' deal for Pickett was also their offer for Fields, right? Taking the lower deal there isn't the end of the world. But if a team wanted to start offering what Carolina did for Darnold?

And again, I think this season has changed the perception around him, even in a small sample size. Look even just at Steeler fans, heck even this board. It changed drastically.

BTW, Mayfield got $4M in his first year in Tampa. Fields is going to blow that out of the water. He's not going to get $20M, but I think he clears Minshew. Or at least he'll have those type of offers. Maybe he learned his lesson in Chicago and will leave money on the table for a better situation.

A lot of people's perceptions have changed. After the Raiders' game, mine were mostly the same as they were at the start (almost certainly never more than a Tannehill). He's more capable of playing safe than I thought, but there's a very limited number of teams that have the Steelers' defence and can allow that to happen.

And given there's I think maybe 5 teams that need a new starter, it's not out of the question that it falls unlucky for Fields.

But we will see.


In other news, Trice is back from IR.

 

[xlm34]

I believe this.

I don't believe that his preferred destination wouldn't be the guaranteed starter slot if available. The one exception is maybe Vegas if he really hated the idea of working with Getsy again.

I also find it quite unlikely that a team that had Fields picked out as a definite starter would bid so low that the Bears still went with honouring Fields request rather than going "actually". I believe it was rumoured the Eagles' deal for Pickett was also their offer for Fields, right? Taking the lower deal there isn't the end of the world. But if a team wanted to start offering what Carolina did for Darnold?



A lot of people's perceptions have changed. After the Raiders' game, mine were mostly the same as they were at the start (almost certainly never more than a Tannehill). He's more capable of playing safe than I thought, but there's a very limited number of teams that have the Steelers' defence and can allow that to happen.

And given there's I think maybe 5 teams that need a new starter, it's not out of the question that it falls unlucky for Fields.

But we will see.


In other news, Trice is back from IR.

And how many of those are actually going to be good options? If the choices are a.) hope Russ falls off as he ages or b.) hope you can hold off a team from giving the job to Sanders/Ward, I’d probably give A the better chance of working out for you. Even though that’s probably not how he’ll think and the money wouldn’t be nearly as good.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

 

[pistolpete11]

He was the 30th ranked head coach in the last players survey. C+. I don't think believing he doesn't necessarily command locker room respect as a head coach is bizarre in light of that.

This means next to nothing to me unless it's only taking into account players that have played for him. Otherwise, this comes down to who's winning and who's name they recognize.

If we want to go down the results room, closing his last 5 games as HC as 1-4 - 4 of those games against teams with non-winning records at the time of play, including a loss to the Panthers - suggests he had lost them by the end.

Mike Tomlin went 1-4 down the stretch one time (at least), too. Now we're back to holding him up as the modern day Lombardi.

Finally, for a HC, getting the most out of a limited roster matters far less to me than having the player evaluation skills to not have a limited roster. That's one of my big things for whether a guy is simply a good co-ordinator or a good HC. I agree it's an open question but that, that and the ability to be the man motivationally when everyone's looking at you and the weight of the world is on your shoulders, is what I am looking for to say the guy is a good HC in waiting and the guy I want.

And those two things are really open questions. The nuts and bolts and squeezing blood from a stone won't save a guy who's not got strengths in those areas.

As I said, the roster building is an open question and I agree it's maybe more important. But I don't think you win 7 games a year with those rosters, and particularly those QBs, without commanding the room.

eta: Plenty of Falcons fans still frothing at the mouth over the usage of their high draft choice playmakers too when we're talking about getting the most out of players. I dunno if they're right but that part of it is there too.

Like who?

As far as I can tell, the only skill position players they took in the first 3 rounds while Smith was there were Pitts, London, and Robinson who were all pretty good with Smith there and haven't really seen much of an improvement without him there (despite having a much better QB).

 

[Peat]

And how many of those are actually going to be good options? If the choices are a.) hope Russ falls off as he ages or b.) hope you can hold off a team from giving the job to Sanders/Ward, I’d probably give A the better chance of working out for you. Even though that’s probably not how he’ll think and the money wouldn’t be nearly as good.

Aye, I think most of us are there.

I guess we'll see how it goes. If I'm a team looking for a stop gap before I hand it to Sanders/Ward, I'm probably ringing Brissett or Flacco or Dalton someone older and more experienced. But then Minnesota went with Darnold, so it's possible.

The one thing I would say, somewhat devil's advocate, is when you're given a chance you don't know when the next one. I admire people who bet on themselves in the belief there'll be another one but it doesn't always work out.

Personally, I think the big thing Fields should be looking for is coaching staff. Get himself with a good coaching staff. Best case he learns, worst case he doesn't but still gets reputational shine. Steelers can offer that but so can others, and maybe some others can offer it more. If I'm Fields, I would have a huge interest in the Colts. Steichen loves running QBs, did great things with Hurts, and Richardson's frailty and rawness offers a path to starting.

This means next to nothing to me unless it's only taking into account players that have played for him. Otherwise, this comes down to who's winning and who's name they recognize.

This is the players survey about the state of their own team, how they rate ownership/HC/facilities/travel and so on, so yeah, entirely his own players.

As for the rest of it - I think my answers to most of it are things I've said before, or you can entirely anticipate me saying. I've enjoyed it and we'll see how it goes if/when he gets another chance, but I think a reply from me would mainly be going around in circles so I'll leave it there.

 

[JTG]

I don't know if I have seen a QB be so good, but the team be so bad like Burrow and Cinci are this year

 

[TooManyHumans]

I wanted DJ gone when he was sucking up 147 targets and giving us 6 yards per target and no TDs. I got so sick about hearing how open he gets. Who gives a shit when he did next to nothing with his opportunities? Dude plays small and was never someone who could be relied on. It was sickening that he was taking all those targets from Pickens. It did nothing but limit the offense, and yeah, I know the QB sucked but even so DJ was not worth that number of targets and he limited himself with his weak ass running after the catch. I did think he would do ok at Baltimore as an afterthought overlooked by the defense, but apparently he still thinks he deserves to be the center of an offense and can't handle being the afterthought he deserves to be. I do not miss him at all. Oh, and he sucked as a blocker even when he bothered to try to block.

 

[JTG]

When I was going back and forth earlier in the season about DJ and the WR situation, I cited the issues with DJ totally giving up on plays as a reason that I thought the return was adequate for him. I do agree that we needed another WR...but we got another WR who is capable and they don't throw to him...like I said was going to happen.

DJ is a bad teammate. You don't want a room of young WRs with him. He is very talented as a route runner, but he has no dawg in him. When Pickett threw him a tough ball and he just stopped running and let it get picked off - I was done watching him. Then he didn't even help on the tackle.