OT: The OT Thread: Shorts without pockets are horrible (Warning in post 368)

[sabremike]

This is such a great joke.

 

[Gras]

Thats not going to put a dent into the cost of private universities.

Students can’t borrow very much per year with those programs. I remember a lot this stuff because my 4 kids have already gone to college. The youngest graduated 2 years ago.

Maximum amounts per year right now.
1st year -> $5,500
2nd year -> $6,500
3rd year and beyond -> $7,500

Now compare those amounts to the 80k yearly tuition @TheMistyStranger brought up. The students are borrowing 7-9% of the full tuition each year. It’s a drop in the bucket.

The full cost of that school over 4yrs would 320k. Subtract the 170k in scholarships mentioned and the 27k total the kid would borrow. That still leaves 123k to be paid Which is paid for by the parents in almost all cases. Frequently with PLUS loans and any other money they can pull together.

I don’t know what the answer is to lowering tuition at private universities/colleges. But what you’re proposing isn’t going to do that. It’s just going to screw over the students by forcing them to pay very high interest rates (15-20%) instead of the 6.5% on the money they can borrow.


Let’s also be honest about the issue of the cost of a college education. It’s primarily an issue for private schools. The state universities across the country are FAR less expensive, even for non-residents. Thats entirely due to being heavily subsidized by the states they’re in. Thats regardless if it’s a red or blue state. Obviously this is not an option for private universities.

A great education can be had for a hell of lot less than that college mentioned above. Parents/students can take advantage of public junior colleges, state universities, etc. many don’t want to take these paths then complain about the costs.

I had somewhere between 80-90k in student loans just to cover the tuition to get my BASc from ITT.

If people are willing to pay that much for tuition then the Universities will charge it, the only way to force their hand is to cut off their supply of money.

 

[brian_griffin]

80k a year.

That's nearly 2x the 2023 USA per capita income. (Context below.)

I can't wait for the day when a better option is available to the young people than this.

I assume that was said with sarcasm / implicit acknowledgement those options are readily available.

As soon as the Feds stop backing student loans and the private loan servicers use the proper interest rates for unsecured loans for people that likely have no credit history, that will force the educational institutions to lower their tuition rates to be able to attract more students.

Agreed that essentially free (ignoring the inflationary aspect of printing money out of thin air to fund that and numerous other programs) government money covering some increasingly higher fraction of higher education annual budgets leads to a lower marginal cost of the university budgets being funded by the students / families, and thereby driving an "arms race" where all schools are getting "weapons" free of charge from the taxpayers and their progeny.

But wasn't the historic model blended? i.e., Federal Pell grants (need / income based), NYS "TAP" (tuition assistance program, need-based), "PLUS" (program name) loans which were non-Federal institution loans with a partial Federal backing obtained through a private lender or lending consortium?

Thanks. But now I’m wondering what the next thing is. Because bad things come in threes.

Maple Leafs win the Cup?

The other piece that could potentially change things is if they allow student loans to be wiped out by bankruptcy.

The challenge will then be that post-HS education will become more and more out of reach for young people from economically disadvantaged backgrounds.

The really crazy part is that plenty of uber expensive private colleges and universities have endowments that are so large that they could put every student on a full ride and not have to touch the principal. But, why would they do that...

Heard on radio yesterday that Harvard, Penn, and MIT are providing tuition and/or room and board free or reduced rate due to the health of their endowments for families making <200k and/or <150k per year.

my parents couldn't afford to pay for my college. they gave me $500 and I put that towards my first year at UB. I f***ing hated that school. so, off to ECC for two years and an associates, then 2 /12 years at Canisius. payed off my 10 year student loan and then debt free.

we were lucky enough to be able to pay for our kids 4 years in college (state schools) so they didn't have any debt once they graduated. our daughter went on to get her masters on her own; she was a grad assistant so that two years cost her nothing.

I can't imagine what it would cost to get an ivy league education these days.

My dad was on disability for about a decade before I started college, continued until he passed a couple weeks before I graduated (grad school). Got accepted to Cornell, RPI, RIT, but couldn't afford. Had a couple state schools as backup. Went to a state school within a private university (a few of those exist in NYS). Paid for it myself. Jobs, need-based grants, loans, and a pittance of a scholarship (I was near the top of my class, not bragging but stating frankly because it was also not clear there was a meaningful difference between us - one of the pitfalls of ordinal ranking). As of a couple years ago I still had my loan payoff statement, I'll look for it. I knew what I was getting into. Total cost of school increased about 50% from my starting semester to my last. Grad school was paid for with research stipend and tuition waiver, as was standard for students in my graduate field of study.

I read a headline saying Harvard is now paying for room and board for families earning less than 150K combined (I believe that was the number). Not sure how true that is since I only saw the headline and didn't care to dig in deeper. I assume a ton of IV league students come from a good amount of generational wealth at least. There's a reason a strong portion stay in whichever class they're born into.

See comments above about what I heard on radio yesterday.

Also, girl (woman) down the street from me growing up (attorney in WNY, lives in Orch. Park now) was the daughter of a Canisius professor. Very smart, same classes as me all through school, She went to Harvard or Yale for undergrad, then to Indiana University for law school. Professors have a reciprocity deal with a lot of schools where they can send their kids to other colleges / universities at discount. My college advisors had same opportunities for their kids.

Two couples I know from work each had one of their children go to Princeton. Scholarships were prominent.

Each of my kids have had different paths and different funding / financial approaches. Personally, I think a prospective college student needs to view the big picture. I remember my wife showing a spreadsheet of annual and total costs of two college options to our daughter and she started crying (YEAH!!! not much makes her cry, especially when it comes to mom and dad's money.) Then we explained to her what we were willing to do and what she would need to be responsible for. I also firmly believe a prospective college student needs to understand what the income / earnings potential will be in their field and what the expected timeframe to pay it off will be. Parents can/should help, but the info is out there, in particular in the internet age. Years ago, you'd use a slider-card for mortgage rates and monthly payment per $1000 borrowed to do those calculations, or run the math formulas yourself (which is what the slider cards were based upon).

Many friends, current work colleagues, and children of work colleagues went ROTC (or Service Academy), or GI Bill. Even if the program has changed, the upsides are still way more in the applicants favor, IMO. I would have done it if I had my head on straighter. Interviewing / hiring prospective employees I've never had an ex-military man or woman with a problem with a commitment to work/job (showing up, being engaged).

 

[oldgoalie]

.

My dad was on disability for about a decade before I started college, continued until he passed a couple weeks before I graduated (grad school). Got accepted to Cornell, RPI, RIT, but couldn't afford. Had a couple state schools as backup. Went to a state school within a private university (a few of those exist in NYS). Paid for it myself. Jobs, need-based grants, loans, and a pittance of a scholarship (I was near the top of my class, not bragging but stating frankly because it was also not clear there was a meaningful difference between us - one of the pitfalls of ordinal ranking). As of a couple years ago I still had my loan payoff statement, I'll look for it. I knew what I was getting into. Total cost of school increased about 50% from my starting semester to my last. Grad school was paid for with research stipend and tuition waiver, as was standard for students in my graduate field of study.

that was me originally. Got accepted at SUNY but at Syracuse University - basically, was going to go for wildlife biology and most general classes were in SU, while the state college did the core stuff. Had an apartment and everything lined up but bailed out when I found out just how few Wildlife Biologists there were, and what they made salary wise.
What could have been...

 

[HaNotsri]

This is such a great joke.

Feels like I've met that guy a hundred times.

 

[yahhockey]

Is it April yet?

On a positive note the vehicle may be returned early next week after being struck by a plow while parked on a street Feb 18.,

I began dealing with an ailment Saturday evening. Every day was a little different but last night was the worst when it migrated from a sinus infection to an ear infection. Head and jaw were throbbing so much I was unable to sleep. Doctor said there is infection in both ears and throat. I was able to sleep for 40-60 minutes a couple times today but no idea how tonight is going to go. Incredibly frustrating. I never thought I would long for Sunday and Monday overnights that had chills and at one point waking up to find my bed was a swimming pool from excessive sweat however at least I was sleeping, lol. I felt better Tuesday morning after the sweating incident, thought the fever was gone and I was on the road to recovery, but alas I was sadly mistaken.

edit...overnight the antibiotics stopped the throbbing. The ears are still blocked and it increased the volume of my tinnitus however on a short term basis the annoyance of that is much better than the throbbing pain. I was able to sleep so life is good. I'm assuming when the ears clear the tinnitus will go back to its baseline volume. It was weird waking up every couple hours with fluid pooled in my ear however I will take it as a sign the blockage is continuing to clear and things are moving in a positive direction.

 

[joshjull]

I had somewhere between 80-90k in student loans just to cover the tuition to get my BASc from ITT.

If people are willing to pay that much for tuition then the Universities will charge it, the only way to force their hand is to cut off their supply of money.

ITT was a for-profit school that was shut down by the government for fraud, predatory lending practices and other abuses. Hopefully you’re part of the lawsuits and various Department of Ed actions to get loan forgiveness and/or refunds. Because it sucks what happened to the students there and you’re entitled to get that money back.

I can understand why you’re jaded about loans with your experience with ITT. But that is very much outside the norm. The max a student can borrow through the federal student loan program is 31K. Thats the total amount that program allows for a Bachelor’s degree.

94% of all student loans come from the Federal student loan program, the other 8% are private loans.

Average debt at graduation for a Bachelors degree
Public University -> 27k
Private University-> $34,800 *

*That debt amount shows student loans pay for a very small amount towards private school tuition. Like the example @TheMistyStranger presented. I mean the scholarship offered in that example was 5-6x bigger than what a student could borrow. The only way to truly impact a private schools ability to get paid would be to restrict how much parents could pay towards tuition. Good luck with that.

As I said in my previous post. Public Universities are far less expensive because they are massively subsidized by the states they're in. It’s why roughly 75% of graduates each year with Bachelor’s degrees are coming from these schools. Most people don’t want to pay private school tuition.

 

[TheMistyStranger]

ITT was a for-profit school that was shut down by the government for fraud, predatory lending practices and other abuses. Hopefully you’re part of the lawsuits and various Department of Ed actions to get loan forgiveness and/or refunds. Because it sucks what happened to the students there and you’re entitled to get that money back.

I can understand why you’re jaded about loans with your experience with ITT. But that is very much outside the norm. The max a student can borrow through the federal student loan program is 31K. Thats the total amount that program allows for a Bachelor’s degree.

94% of all student loans come from the Federal student loan program, the other 8% are private loans.

Average debt at graduation for a Bachelors degree
Public University -> 27k
Private University-> $34,800 *

*That debt amount shows student loans pay for a very small amount towards private school tuition. Like the example @TheMistyStranger presented. I mean the scholarship offered in that example was 5-6x bigger than what a student could borrow. The only way to truly impact a private schools ability to get paid would be to restrict how much parents could pay towards tuition. Good luck with that.

As I said in my previous post. Public Universities are far less expensive because they are massively subsidized by the states they're in. It’s why roughly 75% of graduates each year with Bachelor’s degrees are coming from these schools. Most people don’t want to pay private school tuition.

20-odd years ago when I was looking at colleges, my top choice school was private and would have cost me 32k a year. This year it is just over 80k. The SUNY school I graduated from was 17k a year, and this year is 26k. The private school expense ramping is off the charts.

 

[Chainshot]

Not sure how many regulars recall Ginger Papa but had the bad news that he has passed away. There is a memorial on the Vancouver board.

Going to go have some feels over my coffee.

 

[oldgoalie]

Not sure how many regulars recall Ginger Papa but had the bad news that he has passed away. There is a memorial on the Vancouver board.

Going to go have some feels over my coffee.

aw geez. he and I shared some conversations over the last few years. I remember when he was over here, pumping for the Sabres. So sorry to hear of his passing.

 

[joshjull]

Not sure how many regulars recall Ginger Papa but had the bad news that he has passed away. There is a memorial on the Vancouver board.

Going to go have some feels over my coffee.

Damn. That sucks.

 

[Jim Bob]

So, Nate called me before he left to drive out for their home opener yesterday and he said that he pushed it too much in practice on Tuesday and it was really sore.

Then he looked really good in warmups as the plan held for him to dress, warm up, and then be the "in case of emergency" backup.

He said after the game they taped it up tighter than for practice Tuesday and it felt OK. He hopes to get the full go for practice today.

So, going in the right direction.

They lost 10-9 in OT. It was one of those close games where whichever team that lost, they would feel like they let one get away.

I love those games as they can teach the best lessons.

 

[joshjull]

20-odd years ago when I was looking at colleges, my top choice school was private and would have cost me 32k a year. This year it is just over 80k. The SUNY school I graduated from was 17k a year, and this year is 26k. The private school expense ramping is off the charts.

I’d add the mentality of private schools about money is crazy.

My oldest started at Canisius College about 15yrs ago. He had a scholarship (17k annually iirc)I was at the financial aid office going over his loans/aid/scholarships/etc. I wanted to know how quickly his scholarship would be revoked if he ever failed to maintain the GPA he needed to keep it. As in, if it drop below in the fall would it disappear for the spring semester? Or would he get a grace period? The lady I was dealing with responded with “Don’t worry about it. You can just borrow the difference with your Parent Plus loan”. Uh, no. If he loses his scholarship he isn’t going here. I’m not borrowing and additional 17k a year. The parents are ATMs to them.

 

[Jim Bob]

I’d add the mentality of private schools about money is crazy.

My oldest started at Canisius College about 15yrs ago. He had a scholarship (17k annually iirc)I was at the financial aid office going over his loans/aid/scholarships/etc. I wanted to know how quickly his scholarship would be revoked if he ever failed to maintain the GPA he needed to keep it. As in, if it drop below in the fall would it disappear for the spring semester? Or would he get a grace period? The lady I was dealing with responded with “Don’t worry about it. You can just borrow the difference with your Parent Plus loan”. Uh, no. If he loses his scholarship he isn’t going here. I’m not borrowing and additional 17k a year. The parents are ATMs to them.

What I saw was the bait and switch with grants and scholarships with Clarkson giving me the most "free money" my freshman year and then my aid package getting a little worse year by year.

And that was with my GPA being solid after my freshman year (3.9 & 3.3 for a 3.6 avg.).

I started getting hammered GPA-wise the second semester my sophomore year when the ChemE classes started.

The ChemE profs at Clarkson at that time took immense pride in the fact that the average grade given out in their ChemE classes were a full grade point lower than any other major on campus.

They also cultivated a toxic students vs professors environment within the ChemE department.

 

[Gras]

ITT was a for-profit school that was shut down by the government for fraud, predatory lending practices and other abuses. Hopefully you’re part of the lawsuits and various Department of Ed actions to get loan forgiveness and/or refunds. Because it sucks what happened to the students there and you’re entitled to get that money back.

I can understand why you’re jaded about loans with your experience with ITT. But that is very much outside the norm. The max a student can borrow through the federal student loan program is 31K. Thats the total amount that program allows for a Bachelor’s degree.

94% of all student loans come from the Federal student loan program, the other 8% are private loans.

Average debt at graduation for a Bachelors degree
Public University -> 27k
Private University-> $34,800 *

*That debt amount shows student loans pay for a very small amount towards private school tuition. Like the example @TheMistyStranger presented. I mean the scholarship offered in that example was 5-6x bigger than what a student could borrow. The only way to truly impact a private schools ability to get paid would be to restrict how much parents could pay towards tuition. Good luck with that.

As I said in my previous post. Public Universities are far less expensive because they are massively subsidized by the states they're in. It’s why roughly 75% of graduates each year with Bachelor’s degrees are coming from these schools. Most people don’t want to pay private school tuition.

I paid off my loans in 2014, everything went down with them in 2016, I got less that 1k out of the class-action that was filed against them.

 

[Chainshot]

My ex is just about to finish paying off her loans from her masters that she got in 2000. Considering that our oldest has left college and my daughter is a freshman... cool?

 

[pschultz]

One of the things that gets left out of a lot of the conversations I've seen about college tuition is that part of the pipeline making kids/parents feel like they have to go the university route is the insistence from all companies on college degrees for pretty much any position higher than laborer. And with the death of the effective unions, there isn't really anything lifting those lowest positions into reasonable wages.

Something needs to be done to pull legitimate learning back into the high school level (instead of just college prep), and partner with the hiring people to stop using college degrees as the only initial filter. I'm not sure what the solution would be there, though. Because from my experience on the hiring side, there's not a good way to judge someone from the resume/application tools I have at my disposal, and I don't have the time on hand to interview everyone who applies, even in my backwater.

 

[Dubi Doo]

One of the things that gets left out of a lot of the conversations I've seen about college tuition is that part of the pipeline making kids/parents feel like they have to go the university route is the insistence from all companies on college degrees for pretty much any position higher than laborer. And with the death of the effective unions, there isn't really anything lifting those lowest positions into reasonable wages.

Something needs to be done to pull legitimate learning back into the high school level (instead of just college prep), and partner with the hiring people to stop using college degrees as the only initial filter. I'm not sure what the solution would be there, though. Because from my experience on the hiring side, there's not a good way to judge someone from the resume/application tools I have at my disposal, and I don't have the time on hand to interview everyone who applies, even in my backwater.

This brings up an interesting thought I've had- why are so many working class/middle class people either against unions, or indifferent to them losing power in society? I'm honestly wondering, I'm not privy on the ins and outs of unions. Have they become shady?

 

[Beerz]

This brings up an interesting thought I've had- why are so many working class/middle class people either against unions, or indifferent to them losing power in society? I'm honestly wondering, I'm not privy on the ins and outs of unions. Have they become shady?

Public ones are shady as hell.

Nothing wrong with unions except when they are forced on you.

 

[Chainshot]

This brings up an interesting thought I've had- why are so many working class/middle class people either against unions, or indifferent to them losing power in society? I'm honestly wondering, I'm not privy on the ins and outs of unions. Have they become shady?

This is certainly a can of worms to unpack. I know I have more negative interactions with organized labor which included when my dad was in one (and was an officer in his local) and the one closed shop I worked at. But I also see the benefit of collective bargaining since most big businesses will absolutely f*** their employees. And if they can't take collective action, public ones in particular, what is the benefit?

 

[Gras]

One of the things that gets left out of a lot of the conversations I've seen about college tuition is that part of the pipeline making kids/parents feel like they have to go the university route is the insistence from all companies on college degrees for pretty much any position higher than laborer. And with the death of the effective unions, there isn't really anything lifting those lowest positions into reasonable wages.

Something needs to be done to pull legitimate learning back into the high school level (instead of just college prep), and partner with the hiring people to stop using college degrees as the only initial filter. I'm not sure what the solution would be there, though. Because from my experience on the hiring side, there's not a good way to judge someone from the resume/application tools I have at my disposal, and I don't have the time on hand to interview everyone who applies, even in my backwater.

Out here they integrated a program that has a couple campuses called EVIT, that high school students can go to, where they spend part of their day on their high school campus and then go to an EVIT campus where they can do classes on trades of Associate Degree level classes.

Career training programs | EVIT College and Career | Arizona

Career training program information for Phoenix area adults and East Valley high school students at the East Valley Institute of Technology in Mesa, Arizona. Includes certifications, licensure, and degree programs.

www.evit.edu

Kids have also been conditioned that they are a failure if they dont go to college and people look down on the trades, even though trades earn a lot more than many people with college degrees. Mike Rowe has his program to try and get more people into the trades.

 

[brian_griffin]

I started getting hammered GPA-wise the second semester my sophomore year when the ChemE classes started.

The ChemE profs at Clarkson at that time took immense pride in the fact that the average grade given out in their ChemE classes were a full grade point lower than any other major on campus.

They also cultivated a toxic students vs professors environment within the ChemE department.

My sister graduated Clarkson Chem Eng, probably about 7-8 years before you. "the struggle was real."

My ex is just about to finish paying off her loans from her masters that she got in 2000. Considering that our oldest has left college and my daughter is a freshman... cool?

After you split, did she foist some of that debt on you, or did you avoid that because she made more money than you? (Not prying, my (2nd) wife had student loans and when she and her ex split - he walked out, wasn't mutually motivated - he thought he'd have no obligation to her (really, their) debt because they made essentially equivalent income and the debt was "hers". Marriage law doesn't see it that way if the debt was incurred during the marriage by either or both parties.

As for 25 years to pay off? I'm not taking 25 years to pay off a debt unless it has 3 bedrooms and 2 baths, and even then, I'm shooting to cut the timeline by 1/3 to 1/2 of the loan origination schedule.

This brings up an interesting thought I've had- why are so many working class/middle class people either against unions, or indifferent to them losing power in society? I'm honestly wondering, I'm not privy on the ins and outs of unions. Have they become shady?

That question implies they were not at one time...

Unions are valid for avoiding capricious behavior. Someone firing me because I once slept with his sister, or I called him an a--hole. They are good for assuring equal treatment for all, but that can be constraining because it also can prevent some forms of deserved and/or freely granted unequal benevolent treatment. The union where I work is a good union; good relationship, good flexibility. My observational experience, both direct and indirect through family members and friends is mixed.

What I don't get is the need for certain public sector government employee unions, in particular the professional white collar unions*. Even President FDR was against their formation. Who is the malevolent employer out to harass and abuse those professional union workers? The taxpayer? If anyone wants to PM me, feel free. I don't know how public the dialog can go.

 

[TehDoak]

My ex is just about to finish paying off her loans from her masters that she got in 2000. Considering that our oldest has left college and my daughter is a freshman... cool?

My wifes plan her for student loans was going to be PSLF plan (where 10 years working at a nonprofit with income adjusted payments gets you full forgiveness). However, since that is on the chopping block, our next plan is powerball and scratch off tickets.

 

[Beerz]

My wifes plan her for student loans was going to be PSLF plan (where 10 years working at a nonprofit with income adjusted payments gets you full forgiveness). However, since that is on the chopping block, our next plan is powerball and scratch off tickets.

On the chopping block is a little dramatic.


On Mar. 12, an Education Department spokesperson said in an email, “President Trump’s executive order will restore the PSLF program to its statutory basis and not allow PSLF to fund anti-American activists. The executive order is narrow in its purpose to ensure certain nonprofits do not inappropriately qualify for PSLF, but does not direct other changes to the program. The Department is reviewing the executive order and will ensure the program is managed effectively for those it is intended to serve.”



Not to mention it probably doesn't hold up in Court. This is something that would have to be altered by Congress in order to change the language.

 

[Chainshot]

My wifes plan her for student loans was going to be PSLF plan (where 10 years working at a nonprofit with income adjusted payments gets you full forgiveness). However, since that is on the chopping block, our next plan is powerball and scratch off tickets.

I have a friend - ironically who works for the gov't - who is going through this. It's been thrown deeply, deeply into disarray for that person - hearing info has to be resubmitted. Efficiency my ass.