The Oilers 1979-1983 drafts vs Red Wings 1989-1993 drafts

[Dale53130]

If this has been done before (and to death), my apologies.

Which team drafted better over that 5-year stretch?

The Oilers' 1982 draft picks, as well as the Red Wings '93 draft picks were both weak; as was the Red Wings '88 draft which basically only produced Sheldon Kennedy. I included them, so I could include the Oilers in 1983; bringing it up to 5 years.

Detroit Red Wings

Click to read more...

 

[FissionFire]

Not really much separating both teams here.

Oilers drafted 10 players who played 500+ games, Red Wings drafted 15 (16 if you want to count Konstantinov who would have easily passed that) so the edge on overall depth clearly is in favor of Detroit.

Comparing overall quality of players I feel Lidstrom is clearly the best player overall.

Defense is Coffey, Lowe, Smith, Beukeboom vs Lidstrom, Konstantinov, Boughner, York, McGillis, Pushor, Eriksson. The edge here I’d say goes to Detroit as they had 2 Norris caliber D vs 1. If I had to pick a top 4 from each group I would easily take the Detroit 4, even though there is a big falloff in the 3/4 spots.

Forwards I feel is pretty clearly tilted to Edmonton. They have less depth overall but their top end players are just that much better. Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Tikkanen vs Fedorov, Kozlov, Primeau, Knuble, Drake, Sillinger, Lapointe, McCarty. Detroit has a ton of quality players but lacks the top line firepower.

Goalies are pretty easy in that Fuhr and Moog vs Osgood is an edge to Edmonton. Both teams drafted goalies who could do enough to win Cups.

On paper, Edmonton has players with higher skill levels but less players overall by a decent margin. I would take the Detroit drafts if I was making a team and voted that way. You get the best overall player (Lidstrom), a clear 1C (Fedorov), and a multiple Cup winning borderline HOF goalie (Osgood) plus enough depth players to fill out a roster or act as very good trade chips. Heck the Detroit drafts are almost enough to put together playoff roster just with those players alone.

Kozlov - Fedorov - Drake
Lapointe - Primeau - Knuble
Sillinger - X - McCarty

Lidstrom - McGillis
Boughner - Konstantinov
Pushor - York
X: Eriksson

Osgood

 

[reckoning]

Most impressive part is that they did it primarily with later picks. Edmonton had no picks in the top 5. Detroit's only top 5 pick was Primeau, who wasn't essential.

 

[tabness]

Most impressive part is that they did it primarily with later picks. Edmonton had no picks in the top 5. Detroit's only top 5 pick was Primeau, who wasn't essential.

To be fair Primeau was seen by the organization as essential especially after his coming out under Bowman early in 1993-1994, and was traded for Shanahan.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

underrated:

1987 Entry	17	1	Andrew Cassels
1987 Entry	33	2	John LeClair
1987 Entry	38	2	Eric Desjardins
1987 Entry	44	3	Mathieu Schneider
1987 Entry	58	3	Francois Gravel
1987 Entry	80	4	Kris Miller
1987 Entry	101	5	Steve McCool
1987 Entry	122	6	Les Kuntar
1987 Entry	143	7	Robert Kelley
1987 Entry	164	8	Will Geist
1987 Entry	185	9	Eric Tremblay
1987 Entry	206	10	Barry McKinlay
1987 Entry	227	11	Ed Ronan
1987 Entry	248	12	Bryan Herring
1986 Entry	15	1	Mark Pederson
1986 Entry	27	2	Benoit Brunet
1986 Entry	57	3	Jyrki Lumme
1986 Entry	78	4	Brent Bobyck
1986 Entry	94	5	Eric Aubertin
1986 Entry	99	5	Mario Milani
1986 Entry	120	6	Steve Bisson
1986 Entry	141	7	Lyle Odelein
1986 Entry	162	8	Rick Hayward
1986 Entry	183	9	Antonin Routa
1986 Entry	204	10	Eric Bohemier
1986 Entry	225	11	Charlie Moore
1986 Entry	246	12	Karel Svoboda
1985 Entry	12	1	Jose Charbonneau
1985 Entry	16	1	Tom Chorske
1985 Entry	33	2	Todd Richards
1985 Entry	47	3	Rocky Dundas
1985 Entry	75	4	Martin Desjardins
1985 Entry	79	4	Brent Gilchrist
1985 Entry	96	5	Tom Sagissor
1985 Entry	117	6	Donald Dufresne
1985 Entry	142	7	Ed Cristofoli
1985 Entry	163	8	Mike Claringbull
1985 Entry	184	9	Roger Beedon
1985 Entry	198	10	Maurice Mansi
1985 Entry	205	10	Chad Arthur
1985 Entry	226	11	Mike Bishop
1985 Entry	247	12	John Ferguson
1984 Entry	5	1	Petr Svoboda
1984 Entry	8	1	Shayne Corson
1984 Entry	29	2	Stephane Richer
1984 Entry	51	3	Patrick Roy
1984 Entry	54	3	Graeme Bonar
1984 Entry	65	4	Lee Brodeur
1984 Entry	95	5	Gerry Johannson
1984 Entry	116	6	Jim Nesich
1984 Entry	137	7	Scott MacTavish
1984 Entry	158	8	Brad McCaughey
1984 Entry	179	9	Eric Demers
1984 Entry	199	10	Ron Annear
1984 Entry	220	11	David Tanner
1984 Entry	240	12	Troy Crosby
1983 Entry	17	1	Alfie Turcotte
1983 Entry	26	2	Claude Lemieux
1983 Entry	27	2	Sergio Momesso
1983 Entry	35	2	Todd Francis
1983 Entry	45	3	Daniel Letendre
1983 Entry	78	4	John Kordic
1983 Entry	98	5	Dan Wurst
1983 Entry	118	6	Arto Javanainen
1983 Entry	138	7	Vladislav Tretiak
1983 Entry	158	8	Rob Bryden
1983 Entry	178	9	Grant Mckay
1983 Entry	198	10	Thomas Rundqvist
1983 Entry	218	11	Jeff Perpich
1983 Entry	238	12	Jean-Guy Bergeron

leclair corson lemieux
momesso cassels richer
brunet gilchrist chorske
ronan

desjardins schneider
lumme odelein
svoboda dufresne
kordic

roy
(tretiak)
(crosby)

that’s almost an entire team. then add the undrafted free agents they picked up in those years:

1983: skrudland, mike lalor
1984: gilles thibaudeau
1985: keane, riendeau
1986: lefebvre, stephan lebeau

and that’s a team capable of winning a cup in the early 90s:

leclair cassels lemieux
corson skrudland keane
momesso lebeau richer
brunet gilchrist chorske
ronan thibaudeau

schneider desjardins
lumme lefebvre
odelein svoboda
lalor dufresne kordic

roy
riendeau

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, Montreal is notable for their amazing c.1983 to 1986 drafting. Also notable for the blue-line talent they inexplicably traded away around 1989-1994.

Edmonton, as per the thread, had an all-time remarkable 1979-1980 draft. Plus 1981 Grant Fuhr and Steve Smith. 1982 was nothing, but then 1983 Tikkanen and Beukeboom.

But then Edmonton's 1984 to 1992 is perhaps the worst 9 years of drafting in the history of the NHL (to that point, if not until today).

 

[Sanf]

Time of those drafts were bit different, but I will give this to Red Wings too. Some good points are made already.

Drafting players behind iron curtain always needed bit of shanigans. But techinically it was possible for every team to do that. Getting Fedorov and Konstantinov is impressive.

To compare for example the Messier drafting. Oilers were interested on drafting Dale Hunter, but Nordiques just picked him on 41. So Oilers then traded down from 42 to 48 and still got their plan B which was Messier. Does not make any less impressive that Oilers picked Messier. But still feel it is less driven than what the Red Wings make to get them franchise type of players.

 

[Sanf]

But then Edmonton's 1984 to 1992 is perhaps the worst 9 years of drafting in the history of the NHL (to that point, if not until today).

I returned to this just few days ago. Not going to defend Oilers. They could have done lot better. But it is difficult. Team is a dynasty. It will not get highest picks so the "surest top end talents". And even if the players had good camps who would they replace from the stacked Oilers.

Oilers seemed to focused on getting the "best player availabe" from the draft rather than filling the possible holes. Also one thing that I have seen mentioned few times is that they weren´t keen on trading their first round choises.

Oilers first round pick did not pan out, but those did not seem big reaches our outrageous pick at the time. Atleast the 80´s picks.

1984 # 21 Selmar Odelein (11th Central Scouting June list, 16th on Oilers own list)
1985 #20 Scott Metcalfe (11th Central Scouting June list, 13th on Oilers own list)
1986 #21 Kim Issel (18th Central Scouting January list)
1987 #21 Peter Soberlak (14th Central Scouting June list)
1988 #19 Francois Leroux (9th Central Scouting June list)
1989 #15 Jason Soules (20th Central Scouting June list)
1990 #17 Scott Allison (28th NA skaters Central Scouting June list)

 

[FissionFire]

Whether or not the picks are reaches doesn’t absolve the scouts and play development from failing to identify and nurture the proper players. All those players except the 88-89 picks were taken well after they were ranked by the services. Teams knew something which is why they fell. Edmonton either chose to ignore the red flags or simply were too incompetent to be aware of them.

 

[Michael Farkas]

1984 # 21 Selmar Odelein (11th Central Scouting June list, 16th on Oilers own list)
1985 #20 Scott Metcalfe (11th Central Scouting June list, 13th on Oilers own list)

"Oilers own list"...?

 

[Sanf]

"Oilers own list"...?

Yes. Though that is actually sort of copy paste error from my notes. Wasn´t suppose to list that here.

Going to early 80´s atleast Oilers and I know some others too shared quite oppenly information to local media after draft. So I have added that information to my notes.

For example from 1982. Edmonton Journal June 10.

... Top draft Jim Playfair of Portland was rated 10th on the Oilers´master list and survived until 20th pick...

About Steve Graves
...His point totals (12 goals, 15 assists) don´t show much, but he was rated 12th overall by Fraser.

Brent Loney, third-round (Cornwall, leftwinger). Played, 65 games 25 points. Rated 14th by Oilers.

 

[Sanf]

Whether or not the picks are reaches doesn’t absolve the scouts and play development from failing to identify and nurture the proper players. All those players except the 88-89 picks were taken well after they were ranked by the services. Teams knew something which is why they fell. Edmonton either chose to ignore the red flags or simply were too incompetent to be aware of them.

Yes won´t deny that. And this is purely out of memory, but for example some were afraid that Soberlak was product of Joe Sakic (team mate in Swift Current and yes another survivor from that bus crash). Issel had IIRC "Does not use his size).

And if the reports that they were sometimes close to making team from the camp. Showing progress. Maybe the should have traded them when they had value. And not just let get discouraged year after year (Glen Sathers words) and bury them in minors.

So yes lot of mistakes.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes. Though that is actually sort of copy paste error from my notes. Wasn´t suppose to list that here.

Going to early 80´s atleast Oilers and I know some others too shared quite oppenly information to local media after draft. So I have added that information to my notes.

For example from 1982. Edmonton Journal June 10.

... Top draft Jim Playfair of Portland was rated 10th on the Oilers´master list and survived until 20th pick...

About Steve Graves
...His point totals (12 goals, 15 assists) don´t show much, but he was rated 12th overall by Fraser.

Brent Loney, third-round (Cornwall, leftwinger). Played, 65 games 25 points. Rated 14th by Oilers.

That's very cool (and yes, quite open). But it once again goes to show how -
a) Central Scouting isn't really a real ranking, per se...it's more of just a watchlist. It's not intended to reflect consensus (which is a silly concept anyhow in this regard).
b) How lists can vary considerably from organization to organization.

In last year's draft, I had a player that was a no draft (as did a couple of teams) from November through the end of the year end up going in the 1st round. That's how she goes though...

I wonder a little bit about how scouting staffs adjusted to the younger draft eligible age around this time too. Not only because it's a younger player, but maybe it's also a different situation for that player (lower level of competition, playing lower in the lineup, etc.).

 

[Sanf]

That's very cool (and yes, quite open). But it once again goes to show how -
a) Central Scouting isn't really a real ranking, per se...it's more of just a watchlist. It's not intended to reflect consensus (which is a silly concept anyhow in this regard).
b) How lists can vary considerably from organization to organization.

In last year's draft, I had a player that was a no draft (as did a couple of teams) from November through the end of the year end up going in the 1st round. That's how she goes though...

I wonder a little bit about how scouting staffs adjusted to the younger draft eligible age around this time too. Not only because it's a younger player, but maybe it's also a different situation for that player (lower level of competition, playing lower in the lineup, etc.).

I remember I have done some searching on this. Mostly because Oilers and Barry Fraser were probably even more open about this than they should. Fraser was sometimes called flamboyant so maybe he just could not help himself . I resurrected my old computer to found out what I had. Not really answer to your question, but atleast slight inside to their scouting system during early 80´s.

June 8. 1982
...NHL teams get scouting reports on players from the Central Scouting System. But most use those only as a backup and rely for the most part on their own scouts...

Democrat and Chronicle January 27.1982
...Another tool the Oilers use is an IBM System 34 computer, which keeps track of all scouting reports.

Sather became interested in computers when he played in St. Louis and lived near Larry Wilson, the former defensive back now using a computer on his personnel job for the football Cardinals. The Oilers' scouting reports are broken down into 90 categories, such as reflexes, hockey sense, stick handling, skating. Players are rated from one (reject) to nine (perfection). When the hand-written reports arrive in the home office, John Blackwell, a former trainer who has taken computer courses, feeds them into the computer...

Edmonton Journal June 16. 1982
The minumum draft age was 17 in 1963, then 18 in 1964 and 20 in 1967

However the limit was reduced to 19 in 1979, then 18 and now 17.

"I think it make it tougher, but it can also turn to your advantage, said Fraser. "It takes longer to break down the categories. I´d say it´s tougher the first half of the year.

"What you have are first year juniors and some other guys who stumbled around."

The Province April 12. 1983
The Oilers' scouting checklist contains 85 items.

Under the heading of skating alone are 10 separate categories. Unlike many teams, Fraser says the Oilers haven't found psychological testing necessary for prospective draft picks. "You can't get into a player's head. I feel that if you see a kid play enough times say, 10 times you know what he's like."

 

[connellc]

I'm slightly more impressed with the Red Wings for bucking the trend and scouting Europeans, especially before it was fashionable. They ended up getting some high value late picks that frankly weren't fringe players and having to keep things hush-hush to get them in the USA.

That 1989 re-draft is Crazy for The Red Wings. You basically get the Best Forward (Fedorov), best Defenseman (Lidstrom), and two other players (Drake/SIllinger) that played over 1000 games with only one top pick. Throw in Boughner and Konstantinov and it's the best single year draft result in my eyes

However, results wise, Oilers did get 5 cups while the Red Wings got 4, so there's always that too. Great question that I go back and forth with but then again, I am a Red Wings fan.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The Oilers' scouting reports are broken down into 90 categories, such as reflexes, hockey sense, stick handling, skating.

This is great, thank you for finding this.

But if they had to rate 90 categories from 1 to 9, that'd be so awful...

I had to do like 20 or 25 subcategories for a couple years with every report...it was tough haha

 

[blogofmike]

I'm slightly more impressed with the Red Wings for bucking the trend and scouting Europeans, especially before it was fashionable. They ended up getting some high value late picks that frankly weren't fringe players and having to keep things hush-hush to get them in the USA.

That 1989 re-draft is Crazy for The Red Wings. You basically get the Best Forward (Fedorov), best Defenseman (Lidstrom), and two other players (Drake/SIllinger) that played over 1000 games with only one top pick. Throw in Boughner and Konstantinov and it's the best single year draft result in my eyes

However, results wise, Oilers did get 5 cups while the Red Wings got 4, so there's always that too. Great question that I go back and forth with but then again, I am a Red Wings fan.

Fair enough. I'd say the Wings front office deserves credit for being craftier than Edmonton.

I voted for the Oilers because they essentially drafted well enough for those guys to be the core of a Cup team. Specifically the 1990 Cup Team. The top 4 regular season scorers and 4 of the top 5 playoff scorers (Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Tikkanen) the highest scoring defender (Smith) and a defensive-minded Hall of Famer (Lowe).

Toss in Coffey and Beukeboom (who was there in 90, but not a core player), and replace Ranford with his 1990 Finals opponent (Moog) and the guy who made him a backup (Fuhr).

There are other decent pieces (Habscheid, Pouzar, Summanen, Poddubny) that can fill in one after the other based on when they peaked. Habscheid was a fill-in on the Messier/Anderson line in the early 80s. Pouzar played with Gretzky/Kurri in the mid 80s. Poddubny was an All-Star 30/40 goal scorer for New York and Quebec in the late 80s.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Whether or not the picks are reaches doesn’t absolve the scouts and play development from failing to identify and nurture the proper players. All those players except the 88-89 picks were taken well after they were ranked by the services. Teams knew something which is why they fell. Edmonton either chose to ignore the red flags or simply were too incompetent to be aware of them.

The head scout was famously operating from a beach in Mexico

 

[Sanf]

The head scout was famously operating from a beach in Mexico

Yes that did happen, but it was later. Barry Fraser went to Mexico IIRC when he left the Dir. of Player Personnel part. Per eliteprospects that would be 1994. Don´t have that in my notes so can´t be sure.