The Myth of John Tavares and Unmet Potential - by an Isles Fan

[nbwingsfan]

OP, you posted:

• John got overpaid
• John never reached his potential
• John wasn't a great #1 pick
• John's career has been a letdown

1. He didn't get overpaid and any rational person knows it. The UFA market is ruled by supply and demand - and Tavares could have gotten 13M$ per season if he just wanted cash. So no.

2. Potential? That's debatable I guess. Has he reached his ceiling? Probably not - very few players do. Sidney Crosby probably didn't reach his full potential either. Doesn't mean it's a disappointment in anyway, that's why we call them ceilings. Still has had a fantastic career.

3. He's a fantastic #1 pick and i've never seen anyone on HF dispute it. There have been many conversations about Tavares vs Hedman - but that's no disrespect to Tavares, it's just the expected norm when there's such a strong top 2 in a draft. Stamkos/Doughty is another example the year prior, and if people argue Doughty would have made a better #1 pick, it doesn't meant Stamkos is an unworthy pick, it just means the top 2 is super strong.

4. Go back to #2. Fantastic career. Letdown? I guess it depends on expectations that some may have placed on him. For the most part he's highly respected and appreciated as a top tier player in this league around here.

Majority of Tavares-bashing threads or discussions have to do with fans upset he left, or fans who don't like the Leafs.

ps - i know you don't believe the bolded points, and are arguing against them. I'm just pointing out - for the most part - those aren't exactly popular beliefs around here, quite the contrary

Check the Lafrenière thread in the prospect section... Tavares is being called not an elite player and a below average 1st overall pick by one poster

Anyways, the only debatable one is potential, as after his 16yo season he was viewed as a better prospect than Crosby to some, but that hype did die a little after he stalled at ages 17/18.

 

[LeapOnOver]

I don't remember him ever being compared to Gretzky. In fact, I remember there being some tiny rumblings just before the draft that his skating was sub par. I clearly remember watching his first press conference after being drafted and feeling like he wasn't all that genuine. Then he began working like a horse on any flaws he had every offseason (first was skating) and getting better every year after suffering some inconsistency early on. Then he signed the team friendly contract and I thought, "Wow, he is genuine. This is great!" Looking back, my first instinct about him was spot on, but guy was a work horse and had laser focus on trying to be the best hockey player. Anybody saying he didn't reach his ceiling is crazy, because he put 500% effort to get there. It's on them for misrepresenting his ceiling. If there is anybody in the NHL I can guarantee plays up to his potential, it's 91.

Not a fan of him as a human being. I prefer honesty and candor. But as a hockey player, the effort was there every year except the last in an Islander's uniform.

 

[aufheben]

I mean the Tavares hype was absolutely insane from what I remember.

 

[aufheben]

That's definitely not fair.

Of course that stuff matters.

You're telling me who Stamkos got to play with doesn't help him over Tavares?

These were both of their most played with teammates(naming the highest profile)

St.Louis: 5379 minutes in his career
Hedman: 3249 minutes in his career
Lecavalier: 1376 minutes in his career
Kucherov: 2457 minutes in his career
Drouin: 567 minutes in his career
JT Miller: 721 minutes in his career
Point: 473 minutes in his career

Tavares? lol

Moulson: 4573 minutes in his career
Parenteau: 2119 minutes in his career
Streit: 1561 minutes in his career
Okposo: 4381 minutes in his career
Comeau: 551 minutes in his career
Nielson: 398 minutes in his career
Bailey: 3400 minutes in his career
Vanek: 798 minutes in his career
Boyes: 730 minutes in his career
Lee: 2420 minutes in his career
Strome: 793 minutes in his career
Nelson: 636 minutes in his career
Barzal : 285 minutes in his career

Mark Streit scored 56/49/47 points as an Islander. Moulson and Okposo were both 1st liners, as is Anders Lee. Actually the Islanders finished top-10 in GF 5/6 seasons between 2012-18. It's not nearly as abysmal as people are implying.

 

[Pyrophorus]

As of right now, I'd go with JT.

Just more experienced and mature and ready for the responsibility IMO.

An article written 5 days ago by LeBrun, talked about how AM and Babcock has another face-to-face.
AM was very forthright, in wanting to be there, help the team and others. The language was so strong, I
think it will be AM...and I was leaning to Rielly. JT like Marleau will take an A.

 

[Pyrophorus]

I mean the Tavares hype was absolutely insane from what I remember.

It was, I never saw that Stammers' was higher the year before.
People were waiting for JT

 

[Pyrophorus]

The fact that there was strong (and reasonable) debate about whether he should even go 1st overall in his draft will tell you that he was not considered a Crosby/McDavid level player at the time of his draft. There was a lot of talk about Hedman, and even some Duchene backers for #1 pick at the time.

His hype at age 15/16 was what had people thinking he could be the "next one". 45 goals in 65 games at age 15 in the OHL is nuts. If I recall, it had calmed down a bit by the time he was drafted, but there were still plenty of people overestimating his potential based on what we all remembered from him at age 15 and 16.

...and at 14, when he got exceptional status in the O

 

[Merrrlin]

This posts actually shows why Giroux is better than John but even more disrespected...

You're not wrong. I was caught off guard, but Claude's stats were incredible. What a player. I would say he only had slightly more help, but he also lacked the top end teammates some of the others had near the top.

 

[Merrrlin]

Mark Streit scored 56/49/47 points as an Islander. Moulson and Okposo were both 1st liners, as is Anders Lee. Actually the Islanders finished top-10 in GF 5/6 seasons between 2012-18. It's not nearly as abysmal as people are implying.

It certainly is abysmal. You can make a statement like "Moulsen and Okposo were both 1st liners", but when you actually look at the stats, and you compare them to other elite players of the decade, they are easily the worst teammates any of the players near the top had beside Claude Giroux.

I did an analysis earlier against Stamkos. In 10 years, John only ever had two teammates score more than 70 points....10 years, only two! Both of those were under Weight's "Don't worry about our end" scheme, and one of them (Barzal) soaked up easier minutes on another line.

Find someone in the top 10 of the decade who had worse. I haven't looked at them all but I would be shocked if any of them had such a complete dearth of talent. John mostly played with 2nd/3rd line wingers and 2nd pairing defenders who were pushed up the line up out of desperation.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Greatest 88 point scorer of all time.

Greatest player to be beaten and outperformed by Bergeron head to head last year. Take away his empty net goal in game 1 and a loan goal in a lopsided game 7. He was a total non factor. Somewhere the truth lies here for him as a player. Some players are winners, and there are losers.

 

[X66]

Greatest player to be beaten and outperformed by Bergeron head to head last year. Take away his empty net goal in game 1 and a loan goal in a lopsided game 7. He was a total noherestop the truth lies here for him as a player. Some players are winners, and there are losers.

Lol just stop.

 

[King In The North]

Only Isles fans would ever make those bullet points.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Lol just stop.

Why? Because it was the truth. BTW, Bergeron does not have the Tavares career stats, but there is no doubt he is the better player, and he showed it head to head dominating Tavares to a playoff series win. Isn't this the crux of the thread? Where Tavares lies as a player. This tells one all they need to know where.

 

[1865]

What I've read:

• John got overpaid
• John never reached his potential
• John wasn't a great #1 pick
• John's career has been a letdown

Just me who hasn't heard much of this and don't consider any to be true?

 

[Primary Assist]

This isn't even a John Tavares thread, it's just another Toronto, anti-Toronto thread. Nothing of any importance has been said in 5+ pages.

 

[sparxx87]

Greatest player to be beaten and outperformed by Bergeron head to head last year. Take away his empty net goal in game 1 and a loan goal in a lopsided game 7. He was a total non factor. Somewhere the truth lies here for him as a player. Some players are winners, and there are losers.

If I take away Parise tying goal and Crosby golden goal, that was a pretty mediocre olympics, too.

I can pretend a lot of things didn’t happen and that’ll change the perception in some instances... but why?

... I can only think of one reason why someone would do that.

 

[PK Cronin]

Can anyone find me an article or something comparing him to Gretzky sometime after his 17th birthday? By the time he was drafted, he was nowhere close to that hype level...We actually had to decide between him and Hedman when the time came...that wouldn't happen with a Gretzky level prospect unless Hedman was suppose to be Orr.

People keep saying this and it just doesn't fit with my memory of the time. The only time his hype was that high was in his first two years in the OHL.

Here's one, not saying he will be but talks about the label, and I don't care to dig up more. There are always rumblings the closer you get to the draft about maybe the #1 pick will be someone different, we saw the same thing this year, we saw the same thing in previous years as well. Never, in any universe, were the Islanders picking anyone but Tavares in that draft. Writers and pundits need eyeballs so they stir it up when it gets closer to the draft.

Is Tavares the Next Great One?

 

[HFBS]

His career has been a letdown because he spent the majority of it with the Islanders and they didn't do much of anything. The highlight was a second round appearance. How many of the best players are consistently not in the playoffs or knocked out in the first round?

This. islander fans are disappointed in their organization, not Tavares. They loved him until he left.

 

[Kevin27NYI]

Mark Streit scored 56/49/47 points as an Islander. Moulson and Okposo were both 1st liners, as is Anders Lee. Actually the Islanders finished top-10 in GF 5/6 seasons between 2012-18. It's not nearly as abysmal as people are implying.

They’re just not sexy names.

 

[Merrrlin]

Here's one, not saying he will be but talks about the label, and I don't care to dig up more. There are always rumblings the closer you get to the draft about maybe the #1 pick will be someone different, we saw the same thing this year, we saw the same thing in previous years as well. Never, in any universe, were the Islanders picking anyone but Tavares in that draft. Writers and pundits need eyeballs so they stir it up when it gets closer to the draft.

Is Tavares the Next Great One?

Props for finding an article a couple months after his 17th birthday before he got into the meat of his OHL season

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Mark Streit scored 56/49/47 points as an Islander. Moulson and Okposo were both 1st liners, as is Anders Lee. Actually the Islanders finished top-10 in GF 5/6 seasons between 2012-18. It's not nearly as abysmal as people are implying.

Excellent observation. Streit put up very good numbers as an Islander. Even Grabner was able to score 34 goals in 76 games as an Islander in the 2010-11 season. Which was more than Tavares at 29. To me the final year Tavares was on the Island was telling, he was outscored by Barzal as a rookie. Both were surrounded by the same talent. The narrative that Tavares was not surrounded by great talent was pretty much a misnomer when he went to the Leafs and he only had 4 more pts than the year before. That again is pretty telling.

 

[PK Cronin]

Props for finding an article a couple months after his 17th birthday before he got into the meat of his OHL season

25 games into the OHL season, I really cherry picked the article. Keep moving those goal posts.

 

[sparxx87]

Excellent observation. Streit put up very good numbers as an Islander. Even Grabner was able to score 34 goals in 76 games as an Islander in the 2010-11 season. Which was more than Tavares at 29. To me the final year Tavares was on the Island was telling, he was outscored by Barzal as a rookie. Both were surrounded by the same talent. The narrative that Tavares was not surrounded by great talent was pretty much a misnomer when he went to the Leafs and he only had 4 more pts than the year before. That again is pretty telling.

What do you take of Barzal coming back with a 60 point season without the insulation of John Tavares?

Did Grabner play with Tavares? I don’t think he did.

How are they surrounded with the same talent when they have different wingers?

Would it be fair to say that Tavares is consistent and will produce good numbers regardless of linemates or competition? ... and that Barzal on the other hand, feasted on lesser competition as a rookie and got a rude awakening once he became the number 1?

 

[X66]

Why? Because it was the truth. BTW, Bergeron does not have the Tavares career stats, but there is no doubt he is the better player, and he showed it head to head dominating Tavares to a playoff series win. Isn't this the crux of the thread? Where Tavares lies as a player. This tells one all they need to know where.

I don't know, there are a lot of things to talk about in that playoff series, but not made up things like this.

Bergeron had 2 points at even strength, the rest of his points came on the PP(away from Tavares).

Tavares, Marchand and Pastrnak all had 4 points each at even strength.

I think 10/10 times teams would accept that going into a series, which would say Tavares and company did an excellent job.

The real damage came on the PP, where again, Tavares didn't play.

That also factors in going against McAvoy and Chara, it is a team game after all.

So yeah, a lot of things to talk about, just not made up stuff.

Go back and read through the Bruins game threads, they weren't thrilled with how the team was playing at even strength, including that top line.

 

[FourRings]

Excellent observation. Streit put up very good numbers as an Islander. Even Grabner was able to score 34 goals in 76 games as an Islander in the 2010-11 season. Which was more than Tavares at 29. To me the final year Tavares was on the Island was telling, he was outscored by Barzal as a rookie. Both were surrounded by the same talent. The narrative that Tavares was not surrounded by great talent was pretty much a misnomer when he went to the Leafs and he only had 4 more pts than the year before. That again is pretty telling.

Tavares didn’t have much help on the Island; especially in the earlier years. He never got a dynamic winger to pair with him and that was a major blunder by Snow.