The Misjudgment of Rasmus Ristolainin

[stokes84]

I’m watching Reinhart this morning, and can’t help but think how so many of our former core has gone on to have amazing success. ROR and Eichel obviously, but also Lehner and Ullmark, complimentary guys like Kane, Montour, Rodriguez, Kulikov, etc. How did it not work out here? And it hit me - the entire time these guys played here, we judged Rasmus Ristolainin to be a 25 minute, all situations, no. 1 workhorse. Nobody played more hockey than him. And it turns out, he’s a complete disaster, here or anywhere else. A possession black hole. It honestly makes me think that this one misjudgment is what brought down the entire house of cards. How did we get it so wrong with him?

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[Chainshot]

We talked a lot about how he would be better further down the lineup, with others taking those minutes.

Or perhaps I was just screaming into the void. It's possible I am now.

 

[stokes84]

We talked a lot about how he would be better further down the lineup, with others taking those minutes.

Or perhaps I was just screaming into the void. It's possible I am now.

I don’t mean us on the board, I mean coach after coach, manager after manager. Just a total miss by the hockey people that came through. It’s incomprehensible.

 

[MOGlLNY]

Having Dahlin instead of Risto in that era certainly would’ve made things different that’s for sure

 

[Beerz]

Murray didn't address D

Botterill failed.

We didn't have anyone to take those minutes

 

[Chainshot]

I don’t mean us on the board, I mean coach after coach, manager after manager. Just a total miss by the hockey people that came through. It’s incomprehensible.

There is a lot of evidence that hockey people can be stubborn, even stupid, with how they act. At some point I think it became they were doing it just because he'd been doing it for a while.

There is also a lot of talk about how he would not adapt his game or try to get better. Ask Finnish fans about his complete lack of WC participation - he never went places where he would have to do things. Even the folks covering the team pointed out in veiled ways how he was stubborn to a fault.

Pushing him into the lineup as early as they did was terrible for him. That he proved as uncoachable as he was - which included Bylsma asking him to do things that he was not suited for - is on him but they did not support him properly.

 

[BFLO]

I think the thought process went like this:
"He was drafted to be a #1 Dman and we have no one else on the roster to fill that role. Lets throw him in that spot, and he'll grow into it."

And then they just kept doubling down on that decision despite Risto never showing any sings of improvement season after season. And they never managed to trade, draft or sign anyone better than him until Dahlin.

 

[stokes84]

And I just want to clarify, this isn’t just a Ristolainin thread, this is my thesis for why the old core didn’t succeed here.

 

[TheMistyStranger]

He failed because no one moved him to RW

 

[Gabrielor]

Rasmus Ristolainen, the prospect, was incredible. Big, right shot, growing two way game with offensive flair (see: gold medal wjc winner).

To me, he'll always be the story of the greatest era of Sabres non-development ever. He went to the NHL too soon (that entire 2012-2015 group did). Furthermore, too many awful coaches (Rolston, Nolan, Bylsma, Housley, Krueger).

With hindsight, they shouldn't have tanked in 2014-2015, BUT if you make them do it again, no prospect they mattered (like Risto, Zadorov, Girgensons, Reinhart, etc) should've been in the NHL. EVERYONE should've been in Rochester. Look today. Kulich in 2014 would already be in the top 6.



(Sidebar: You can hate Adams all you want. He's nailed fixing the part that doomed Risto.)

 

[newfiejesus]

Looking forward to The Ennui of Grigorenko, Zadarov's Zeitgeist and The Long Night of Leino.

 

[Chainshot]

And I just want to clarify, this isn’t just a Ristolainin thread, this is my thesis for why the old core didn’t succeed here.

They rushed some of them in the first wave which was so unlike what Regier had done before. Risto, Zadorov, Greg O'Renko, Girgensons all came in quickly and I would assert none of them grew their game from arrival. For someone who for years had not forced the issue, he did a 180 and suddenly was plugging guys in way too soon. What if Gus had spend a year at Vermont, playing top line minutes and having the chance to work on things against his peers instead of getting concussed by a cheapshot while trying to survive the AHL. Risto spent part of a season down there, came up with some bad habits and then didn't have those coached out of him. Grigorenko got put onto the team despite being clearly outmatched... twice. Zads was similar.

They handicapped themselves with trying to inject all of them right away. Some of that is also on Regier for the utter failures of his drafts from '05ish to 2012. There weren't a lot of prospects or younger vets in the lineup that had come into the team from those drafts - they still in a way have that problem because they're missing a lot by not having many good pros in the 25-30 age area.

Sending Reinhart back was good for him. That it took them six years to even think maybe trying him at center, with him being on the cusp of departing (which seemed to be known by him and the team by that point) is one of the most obstinate, muley bits of know-it-all behavior. It's possible he's the 2nd line possession center they could use even today if they had simply tried it.

 

[BFLO]

And I just want to clarify, this isn’t just a Ristolainin thread, this is my thesis for why the old core didn’t succeed here.

We had a lot of good pieces, even some cornerstone ones. But we never had the front office capable of getting the right mix of players at the right times in their careers, and we never had the coaching to get the most out of the rosters as they were and bring it all together.

The majority of the roster has been far too young for far too long, and nearly every older vet brought in to balance it out or "provide leadership" was washed up or flopped.

 

[Gabrielor]

And I just want to clarify, this isn’t just a Ristolainin thread, this is my thesis for why the old core didn’t succeed here.

I have a few theories:

1) They mostly skipped development and threw them directly into the NHL with bad coaching and bad initial expectations (2014-2015, please don't win guys!)

2) They transplanted the NHL veterans from not Buffalo, and that mattered. Places like Buffalo, Calgary, Winnipeg, they REALLY need a core of NHL contributors that have already bought into the organization and the city to show the young guys the way. Bogosian, Kane, and O'Reilly didn't give a shit. Thus, we eventually got Jack not giving a shit.

3) The Eichel-OReilly NHL team was never built completely. Murray cowboy'd assets for big names, but they missed key pieces to roster composition at the time. Namely, a defense. Josh f***ing Gorges was his top pair D.

4) Because of #3, by 2016, their prospect pool depth was spent. They had nothing coming in the near term.

5) Tim Murray, draft guru, was a myth. He couldn't hit on a 2nd round pick to save his life. Kevyn Adams found as many top 6 forwards in 2020, with an 8th and 34th pick, as Murray did in 2 full draft in 2014 and 2015 with TWO 2nd overall picks.

6) Pegula impatience. Building a prospect pool that becomes a contender takes time. He was in too much of a hurry early on to rush guys who weren't ready (Risto, Grigorenko, Zadorov).


The Tim Murray era was a story of bad development and asset management, and too much focus on one player they never got (McDavid).

The Jason Botterill era was confusion and stupidity compounding daily. The only good thing about Botterill's era is he mismanaged the team so bad that we got high picks still, and those high picks weren't wasted (he and his staff also were better drafters than Saint Murray).

The Kevyn Adams era is still being written. He got the Sabres back from literal hell to the bubble, and has a GIGANTIC cache of assets to go even further. He's done the best, by far.

 

[Chainshot]

We had a lot of good pieces, even some cornerstone ones. But we never had the front office capable of getting the right mix of players at the right times in their careers, and we never had the coaching to get the most out of the rosters as they were and bring it all together.

The majority of the roster has been far too young for far too long, and nearly every older vet brought in to balance it out or "provide leadership" was washed up or flopped.

Which again they are faced with since they don't have guys in that productive veteran area (say over 25 to about 31) since those guys have been dealt in all of the other mess in previous builds and retoolings. And they didn't have those guys at the start of the retool because the ones they had were either shipped off or simply never were.

They need good pros in that age range now. Going older leaves them with the risk of another EJ. Staying young means the same sort of youthful problems will persist.

 

[Gabrielor]

This is the organization asset chart at the time Murray was fired. They were ok on draft capital, but dead in the water on forward depth, forward roles, all things defense, and sketchy at best on goaltending due to Lehner's well-documented issues.

Their best forward prospect was Alex Nylander, a bust.
Their best defense prospect was Brendan Guhle, a bust who retired at 25.

 

[Fjordy]

Looking forward to The Ennui of Grigorenko, Zadarov's Zeitgeist and The Long Night of Leino.

Oh, by the way, Grigorenko will play in my city next season, I can see his skills.

 

[jc17]

2) They transplanted the NHL veterans from not Buffalo, and that mattered. Places like Buffalo, Calgary, Winnipeg, they REALLY need a core of NHL contributors that have already bought into the organization and the city to show the young guys the way. Bogosian, Kane, and O'Reilly didn't give a shit. Thus, we eventually got Jack not giving a shit.

Maybe its a hindsight cup narrative, but I don't know if I would lump O'reilly in there. His famous "losing love of the game" quote was preceded by one about being unhappy that the team was ok with losing. He might have just been outnumbered by the big name slackers, add moulson to the list

 

[Gabrielor]

Maybe its a hindsight cup narrative, but I don't know if I would lump O'reilly in there. His famous "losing love of the game" quote was preceded by one about being unhappy that the team was ok with losing. He might have just been outnumbered by the big name slackers, add moulson to the list

It actually isn't a statement on any of them as good or bad guys. It's a statement on them not being in Buffalo long or drafted/developed here. They were all mercenaries who immediately became the team leaders because all the previous generation's leaders were traded.

And it's pretty clear now none of those 3 felt any inherent loyalty to Buffalo. Why would they?

 

[Butt Ox]

Buffalo; bescumbered.

 

[jc17]

It actually isn't a statement on any of them as good or bad guys. It's a statement on them not being in Buffalo long or drafted/developed here. They were all mercenaries who immediately became the team leaders because all the previous generation's leaders were traded.

And it's pretty clear now none of those 3 felt any inherent loyalty to Buffalo. Why would they?

I don't know if i agree with that premise. Very well could be lip service, but ROR said he wanted to win here, I don't think transplant is the inherent issue. Bigger issue might be that some we got were bums. ROR was obviously a transplant in STL. Reports are that Briere embraced buffalo, but management messed it up. Drury was a transplant that we know didn't like Buffalo, but was still a fine contributor and probably helped get more out of young guys

Loyalty to a logo or not, some guys want to win more than others. I don't think buy-in to the city/org was the issue.

 

[Gabrielor]

I don't know if i agree with that premise. Very well could be lip service, but ROR said he wanted to win here, I don't think transplant is the inherent issue. Bigger issue might be that some we got were bums. ROR was obviously a transplant in STL. Reports are that Briere embraced buffalo, but management messed it up. Drury was a transplant that we know didn't like Buffalo, but was still a fine contributor and probably helped get more out of young guys

Loyalty to a logo or not, some guys want to win more than others. I don't think buy-in to the city/org was the issue.

Briere and Drury at least arrived with holdovers from the cup run, a previous winning group.

ROR may have had the Briere quality of embracing BUF (I'm dubious, we didn't get enough time to know), but Bogosian and Kane sure as shit didn't.

 

[BFLO]

Which again they are faced with since they don't have guys in that productive veteran area (say over 25 to about 31) since those guys have been dealt in all of the other mess in previous builds and retoolings. And they didn't have those guys at the start of the retool because the ones they had were either shipped off or simply never were.

They need good pros in that age range now. Going older leaves them with the risk of another EJ. Staying young means the same sort of youthful problems will persist.

There's a lot of room for the team to "go older" by picking up guys in the 25-31 year old range without dipping into the 35+ year olds.

 

[Chainshot]

There's a lot of room for the team to "go older" by picking up guys in the 25-31 year old range without dipping into the 35+ year olds.

Very true. They need to pay that cost.

 

[Irie]

I’m watching Reinhart this morning, and can’t help but think how so many of our former core has gone on to have amazing success. ROR and Eichel obviously, but also Lehner and Ullmark, complimentary guys like Kane, Montour, Rodriguez, Kulikov, etc. How did it not work out here? And it hit me - the entire time these guys played here, we judged Rasmus Ristolainin to be a 25 minute, all situations, no. 1 workhorse. Nobody played more hockey than him. And it turns out, he’s a complete disaster, here or anywhere else. A possession black hole. It honestly makes me think that this one misjudgment is what brought down the entire house of cards. How did we get it so wrong with him?

It was the front office and coaching staff that failed the prospects. The prospects weren't responsible for the failure of the organization.

A lot of the kids Buffalo drafted in that period probably could have been much better NHL players if they were drafted by teams with better development plans, Risto included.

The one thing we can all thank Risto for is that he was a key piece in Dahlin not being completely destroyed.

Does anyone else remember the stints Ristolainen was injured in Dahlin's early years and they were playing Dahlin 26 minutes a night and he was looking completely deflated, defeated, and broken? I do. I shudder to think how badly they may have broken Dahling had Risto not been around to be the fodder to chew up those difficult minutes.