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The Martin St Louis Thread | Page 21 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
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The Martin St Louis Thread

Tyson said:
My take is that I truly don't know who the right guy is but from what I am seeing after almost 3 years of MSL is that he doesn't appear to be a X's and O's guy and you can see it with the way the team plays.
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Look at the rosters of the past three years.
 
Lafleurs Guy said:
Look at the rosters of the past three years.
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I have said it over and over...these guys are NHL calibre...they can be better taught to play in their end better than this. One of the reasons I can't watch this team is the lack of improvements. Yes I know they are young and rebuilding, that's why they need to play tighter defensively. I obviously am just an amateur but it's what I see when I tune in.
 
Habby4Life said:
Any decent coach can teach an undermanned team to play without the puck. It happens all the time.

Just more excuses.

Don’t know why some just can’t admit that not everything MSL does is gold.
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That's not what most of us are saying. The nuance might escape you but the point is that MSL does not have a lineup to implement a tight defensive structure. The team is just too young - physically and reading and reacting - which is the key component of structure.

Playing without the puck is not a skill - like puck handling. It's a combination of individual tactics and collective play. In Hockey Canada's progression pyramid - they are advanced skills that require maturity when implementing in games. This applies to pro's. You can't demand the youngest team (and youngest D corp) to perform top of the league d-zone.

This is not an excuse - just basic understanding of hockey systems and how coaching can influence collective play.

You want to blame someone? Blame Molson and the rebuild. Blame HuGo that they haven't diverted from the plan. The last person you should blame is MSL.
 
Lafleurs Guy said:
Again, we could put in the trap. Everyone agrees that we’d win more games. But it’s going to stunt out players’ offensive development.

It’s not just about winning games, it’s about developing prospects properly.

As for Roy, he’s always been a hothead. It’s happened everywhere he’s gone. I see zero reason to bring him anywhere near a group of young players who’s confidence he’d have a good chance of destroying.
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Who said trap??

Its is absolute nonsense to think teaching defense or implementing a better structure will hurt development.

Suzuki, Slaf, CC, and the other young guys are going to fall apart because they are taught to be accountable without the puck, it’s simply false.

If you want to talk development, how is this “structure” helping Guhle, Hutson, X etc. I guess being trapped in your zone chasing the cycle all night will help their skating and stamina.

Outplayed, out shot, out worked, is good for development, ok 🤷
 
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Tyson said:
I have said it over and over...these guys are NHL calibre...they can be better taught to play in their end better than this. One of the reasons I can't watch this team is the lack of improvements. Yes I know they are young and rebuilding, that's why they need to play tighter defensively. I obviously am just an amateur but it's what I see when I tune in.
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There are currently two raw rookies on our blueline and three others rotating in who are super green. And that’s just this year.

I’ll ask you this question: is there a player who hasn’t developed well under MSL?
 
Habby4Life said:
Who said trap??

Its is absolute nonsense to think teaching defense or implementing a better structure will hurt development.

Suzuki, Slaf, CC, and the other young guys are going to fall apart because they are taught to be accountable without the puck, it’s simply false.

If you want to talk development, how is this “structure” helping Guhle, Hutson, X etc. I guess being trapped in your zone chasing the cycle all night will help their skating and stamina.

Outplayed, out shot, out worked, is good for development, ok 🤷
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I’m using the trap as a clear example of a system that would work as a short term fix. Does that mean we should do it? No.

Again, want to criticize MSL and say he needs to tighten things up? Cool. But a ‘fire the coach’ thread on game five of a season where we’ve got the 2nd youngest roster in the league is insane.
 
Lafleurs Guy said:
I’m using the trap as a clear example of a system that would work as a short term fix. Does that mean we should do it? No.

Again, want to criticize MSL and say he needs to tighten things up? Cool. But a ‘fire the coach’ thread on game five of a season where we’ve got the 2nd youngest roster in the league is insane.
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If he can’t/wont bring in better assistant coaches that can mitigate his shortcomings or adapt his style then yeah, punt him and bring in a real coach with a real staff.

Not just a one year issue, same stuff last season.
 
Lafleurs Guy said:
There are currently two raw rookies on our blueline and three others rotating in who are super green. And that’s just this year.

I’ll ask you this question: is there a player who hasn’t developed well under MSL?
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Would those players have developed just as well under another coach? I am looking at how the team plays more so than how individuals are developing. Marty is no longer a shiny new toy...we need to see team play improvements...
 
Tyson said:
Would those players have developed just as well under another coach? I am looking at how the team plays more so than how individuals are developing. Marty is no longer a shiny new toy...we need to see team play improvements...
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But you need better experienced players to support your logic. This team has gotten younger, less experienced. The expectations are not logical nor realistic.

The team is still thin and extremely young. This is a proper rebuild - coaching does not change that.
 
Habnot said:
But you need better experienced players to support your logic. This team has gotten younger, less experienced. The expectations are not logical nor realistic.

The team is still thin and extremely young. This is a proper rebuild - coaching does not change that.
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While I understand there is a rebuild happening there has to be concern with the lack of even the slightest improvement defensively. Yes Hutson is a rookie, Struble barely has 60 NHL games but some guys are entering their 3rd season on D....
I refuse to blindly give this group of coaches a pass...they need to clean up the way they play. Not every roster player is a rookie.
 
Tyson said:
Would those players have developed just as well under another coach?
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Fair question. And there’s no way we can know. But we just saw an absolute train wreck of a decade where almost none of our prospects panned out.

There’s no doubt that almost - maybe all - of our prospects are progressing well. That’s more important than anything. Would it have happened with a different coach? Maybe. But another coach might’ve made things worse.

Tyson said:
I am looking at how the team plays more so than how individuals are developing. Marty is no longer a shiny new toy...we need to see team play improvements...
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The team is constantly adding rookies. It’s not the same as last year or the year before and we’ve got half a dozen more rookies on the way. It’s a tall order to get the 2nd youngest club in the league to play like a well looked machine. Plus we’ve lost Laine, Roy is in the minors, Dach is making his way back…

Not an easy assignment for any coach.
 
Habby4Life said:
If he can’t/wont bring in better assistant coaches that can mitigate his shortcomings or adapt his style then yeah, punt him and bring in a real coach with a real staff.

Not just a one year issue, same stuff last season.
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How about we wai until past game six to see what happens?
 
Due to the bad contracts still on the books, Hughes is handcuffed in acquiring the right veterans to spread through the lineup to properly insulate the young players. When all the veterans can't be slotted higher than the 3rd line, there is a problem. He is going to have to pay the price at the end of the season and move Anderson at half price with a pick to make room or the team will make the same mistakes Edmonton, Buffalo and Ottawa made. Say what you want about Detroit, but at least Yzerman surrounded his young players, and didn't rush the others, letting them develop in lower leagues.
 
HABitual Fan said:
Due to the bad contracts still on the books, Hughes is handcuffed in acquiring the right veterans to spread through the lineup to properly insulate the young players. When all the veterans can't be slotted higher than the 3rd line, there is a problem. He is going to have to pay the price at the end of the season and move Anderson at half price with a pick to make room or the team will make the same mistakes Edmonton, Buffalo and Ottawa made. Say what you want about Detroit, but at least Yzerman surrounded his young players, and didn't rush the others, letting them develop in lower leagues.
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That’s rich. There’s exactly. 4 vets left.
 
Theodore450 said:
That’s rich. There’s exactly. 4 vets left.
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Gallagher, Anderson, Armia, Dvo, Savard, Price makes 6. It is not the number of them, but the amount of cap tied up in them that can't be used on more suitable players.
 
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