The Loss of Broberg and Holloway Gripe Thread

[Dirk Dangler]

No way. He's totaling keeping that 1.111 PDO rolling.

Not directed at you, but I think it's a little funny that this fan base spent all last season (rightfully) shitting on the paper tiger Canucks being propped up by a stupid PDO, but have now completely flipped on the concept because it's two former Oilers being propped up by PDO.

Obviously it’s not sustainable. But honestly who cares if it’s sustainable. It’s his play style that’s missing from the team. Unless youd rather over the hill former scorers who slide so far down the lineup that they may become healthy scratches if the full team ever gets healthy.

 

[Dirk Dangler]

The kid signed an offersheet. I'm sure the guys in the lockerroom would prefer to not have those type of guys in the lockerroom.

BS. Nurse used every ounce of leverage he had to sign an inflated contract. He’s got a letter on his chest. If anything he followed the vets direction.

 

[SupremeTeam16]

It was easy to project the risks. The Oilers were broadly seen as ripe for offer sheet in a bull market with first substantive revenue bump post covid. Jackson was hired in large part for his experience as a super agent fluent with the CBA and all the nuances. He was also experienced with client relationships and the issues with Broberg and agent went back virtually to his start with the organization. Deteriorated into a public trade request complete with confusion whether or not the agent had been granted permission to seek a trade. The trade request never rescinded.

Further salt in the wound your noted 'greaseball' agent (doing his job throughout the player organization development disconnect) worked with Jackson in the same agency. In fact, the two of them worked on McDavid's exceptional status petition together. There should have been no surprises in terms of situation, status player organization relationship, nor the motivations of the agent involved - already expressed to the team and a known professional work associate to Jackson.

You make it sound like the guy running a billion dollar business, trained as a lawyer and experienced as a super agent and with prior team experience were innocent babes in the woods falling victim to conditions they either blatantly ignored or were woefully naive. Further reported that a similar ignored Holloway agent with one lone client felt stonewalled himself with the Oilers organization so reached out to Ferris for advise and voila the double jeopardy trap established through inaction by the former super agent and management team.

The Oilers didn't get knifed by anyone. This was self inflicted wounds in which they ignored all the risk factors, went on a July 1 spending spree including players like Josh Brown and Stetcher while not prioritizing any action with their two pedigree blue chip players fresh off strong support in a game 7 Cup Run. Inaction unfortunate had consequences and the market reset the value on two low hanging quality young talents on a team that blew past its imposed allowance on July 1 and felt there was no need to actively negotiate or explore contingencies ... with a natural starting point with St. Louis with whom there was multiple reports of ongoing trade deadline discussion for both players mere months before. It should have mattered what the Oilers offered because had they done any simple pro-active negotiation with one or both players they quite possibly had avoided double jeopardy and kept their options open instead of passively letting the market squeeze them having placed themselves into cap purgatory.

It's an embarrassing, historic misstep. One that was widely reported as a threat within new market conditions, a damaged player reputation, and professional working relationship with the agent involved. Lots of talk about improving development from Jackson on day 1 hiring yet when it came to this team's NHL playoff steeled young future, there was no pro-active effort to talk about the plans for them nor any negotiation with the Cup run they all rode on together.

I appreciate your position and your points. While we often agree, we’ve gone back and forth on this situation, are on opposite sides and neither is going to convince the other. I’m not saying Jackson didn’t error but I think there’s more to the story then a trained lawyer and ex agent running a billion dollar business being so naive he just completely got caught with his pants down. I’m betting he believed that Ferris was negotiating to get a contact signed and in those negotiations and conversations with the players representation, he felt they had time to get a deal done when the fact is Ferris was negotiating to buy time to lock down their preferred outcome without risking his player being dealt to a less desirable situation that might have the cap space to foil his pre arranged plan with Armstrong.

It’s obviously an assumption on my part but I don’t think it’s completely outlandish. Here’s my opinion of how it went. Ferris wants to get Broberg out of Edmonton, but the team is apprehensive about trading Broberg because they’ve put the development time into him and likely the trade value just isn’t there. Thats when Ferris goes to a GM he knows is willing to break from accepted convention when it comes to unproven rfa’s and inflationary offer sheets and they cook up this plan but they need to buy time for buyout windows to pass so they put Edmonton in a position that maximizes the chances they can’t or won’t match but also time for Armstrong to get his picks back. So in order to buy that time Ferris has to continue to negotiate without intention of signing in Edmonton because otherwise Jackson might be more inclined to explore the trade market and there’s a possibility Broberg is on his way to somewhere like SJ where they have plenty of cap to match any offer sheet STL would be willing to hand out ans Broberg would end up in a perceived worse situation on a bottom feeder where he won’t have the same veteran insulation and he’ll be trotted out to get shelled nightly. So to avoid risking incentivizing Jackson to explore a trade market Ferris couldn’t control, I think he straight up negotiated in bad faith to ensure the outcome they wanted. It’s obviously speculative but I think it’s a more likely story that a guy like Ferris would mislead Jackson a bit in order to protect his desired outcome, rather then a guy like Jackson was just completely oblivious.

 

[AM]

Even Oiler CEO Jackson openly conceded Broberg's development had issues and Holland also noted the organizational challenge with the team trading for veteran left dmen Keith, Kulak, Ekholm which effected the potential to onboard a mature window phase team. Made the team last year only to see the run pulled when Woodcroft went into job and season saving mode opting for more mature veteran certainty. This was about opportunity. He took the demotion to Bakersfield to play and killed it. So much so that he was trusted by the coaching staff to airlift in deep playoff competition against Dallas and Florida.

Another team saw that potential plenty and stepped up on their belief to reset Broberg (and Holloway's) financial value through a precision offer sheet with an Oilers team that overspent its cap and chose to be inactive instead of pro-active with their homegrown talent. Looks like St. Louis has made a good, low risk bet on two pre-peak season pedigree players.

Laugh, does this response autocorrect after you start typing it?

Holloway and broberg are expensive long shots the oilers couldn’t afford. And they found what they wanted with a different team.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I appreciate your position and your points. While we often agree, we’ve gone back and forth on this situation, are on opposite sides and neither is going to convince the other. I’m not saying Jackson didn’t error but I think there’s more to the story then a trained lawyer and ex agent running a billion dollar business being so naive he just completely got caught with his pants down. I’m betting he believed that Ferris was negotiating to get a contact signed and in those negotiations and conversations with the players representation, he felt they had time to get a deal done when the fact is Ferris was negotiating to buy time to lock down their preferred outcome without risking his player being dealt to a less desirable situation that might have the cap space to foil his pre arranged plan with Armstrong.

It’s obviously an assumption on my part but I don’t think it’s completely outlandish. Here’s my opinion of how it went. Ferris wants to get Broberg out of Edmonton, but the team is apprehensive about trading Broberg because they’ve put the development time into him and likely the trade value just isn’t there. Thats when Ferris goes to a GM he knows is willing to break from accepted convention when it comes to unproven rfa’s and inflationary offer sheets and they cook up this plan but they need to buy time for buyout windows to pass so they put Edmonton in a position that maximizes the chances they can’t or won’t match but also time for Armstrong to get his picks back. So in order to buy that time Ferris has to continue to negotiate without intention of signing in Edmonton because otherwise Jackson might be more inclined to explore the trade market and there’s a possibility Broberg is on his way to somewhere like SJ where they have plenty of cap to match any offer sheet STL would be willing to hand out ans Broberg would end up in a perceived worse situation on a bottom feeder where he won’t have the same veteran insulation and he’ll be trotted out to get shelled nightly. So to avoid risking incentivizing Jackson to explore a trade market Ferris couldn’t control, I think he straight up negotiated in bad faith to ensure the outcome they wanted. It’s obviously speculative but I think it’s a more likely story that a guy like Ferris would mislead Jackson a bit in order to protect his desired outcome, rather then a guy like Jackson was just completely oblivious.

We've for sure hashed and rehashed this and still come back to our original opinions. And that's a-ok. But in your scenario, I think Jackson absolutely should have considered Ferris was going to use his CBA negotiated rights to leverage offer sheet. Easy to assume Jackson would do so as former agent with a disgruntled client, no active negotiation from the right's holder, and no clear opportunity path or one that's communicated. It would be agent negligence if they didn't.

Unfortunately the Oilers chose inaction, to spend beyond its cap ceiling, and to target other players without any negotiations with Broberg and Holloway. The alternative is to prioritize your at risk talent, initiate negotiations to smoke out intent and ability to sign within a hard, fixed financial threshold you establish with your cap and salary modelling. The public player counter offers were apparently $1.8 million Broberg and $1.3 million Holloway. Coming off the Cup run it's easy to position as a quasi-'bonus' for the youth contribution to the team run and belief in them as part of the team's future. It's a step to mend relationships but also mitigate your high risk exposure versus worst case of an inflationary hostile offer sheet(s). It's also a way to smoke out intent and if the players reject their own counter offers, the GM trade calls are made and explored while also serving notice (bluffing) that you'll match on any offer sheets.

The issue is it's reported there was never any dialogue or negotiation until Lorne Scott it's believed talked to Ferris at Gretzky-Hlinka tournament in mid August. The Oilers choice for inactivity, do nothing led them into a market reset with low risk, high reward for teams in different cap, market conditions, and need. A prospective age 23 top 4 NHL d-man for a 2nd round pick and a low buy-out threshold if it doesn't work out, sign me up. But ultimately the Oilers had the hammer and could have matched. Their passivity and choice not to negotiate drove up the pricing.

Ferris was known to Jackson and his MO well established especially with clients in contentious situations with their right's holders. Jackson's an industry expert with professional training in contracts and negotiations. He shouldn't be mislead. But if you don't actively negotiate then you place yourself at risk doubly so with two quality RFA's off a Cup run and your decision to spend past the cap. They got cooked by missing all the signals and risk factors.









It didn't have to play out this way.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Laugh, does this response autocorrect after you start typing it?

Holloway and broberg are expensive long shots the oilers couldn’t afford. And they found what they wanted with a different team.

Not negotiating and instead doing nothing and hoping your cap overspend doesn't get exploited opened the door for the market to assign new valuations to Broberg and Holloway. The Oilers walked themselves into a situation where they couldn't afford their own players.

The prize was always an emergent, young pre-peak years top 4 NHL defenseman. Not negotiating with Holloway's agent helped walk themselves into a double jeopardy offer sheet reality. Good things don't always come to those who wait.

And yes, this website has weird autocorrect which often seems to muck up my stream of consciousness run on sentences.

 

[AM]

Not negotiating and instead doing nothing and hoping your cap overspend doesn't get exploited opened the door for the market to assign new valuations to Broberg and Holloway. The Oilers walked themselves into a situation where they couldn't afford their own players.

The prize was always an emergent, young pre-peak years top 4 NHL defenseman. Not negotiating with Holloway's agent helped walk themselves into a double jeopardy offer sheet reality. Good things don't always come to those who wait.

And yes, this website has weird autocorrect which often seems to muck up my stream of consciousness run on sentences.

The players never provided a reason why they should do anything early. By the time they had it was too late. Maybe they shouldn’t have played them during the playoffs? Maybe that was a solution, though I think the oilers were trying to win a Stanley cup. One would think that would placate players who could go for it again the next year? Nope, they choose the money. So it’s good riddance.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The players never provided a reason why they should do anything early. By the time they had it was too late. Maybe they shouldn’t have played them during the playoffs? Maybe that was a solution, though I think the oilers were trying to win a Stanley cup. One would think that would placate players who could go for it again the next year? Nope, they choose the money. So it’s good riddance.

It's on the management to negotiate. Not sit on an initial offer. By reports there were counter offers by both players. The clock starts ticking on July 1 for RFA's when all teams can negotiate. Weird flex to suggest not playing them in playoffs. Do what you need to do to justify this history making gaffe. People leave jobs all the time for better opportunity and more money. Talent often gets poached. Why would hockey players with very finite careers be any different?

Oiler management chose inaction instead of actively negotiating with their two young guys coming off solid proving work in deep playoff competition. Consequences happens when the market, given an opening, set a new valuation. They walked themselves into a corner.

 

[AM]

It's on the management to negotiate. Not sit on an initial offer. By reports there were counter offers by both players. The clock starts ticking on July 1 for RFA's when all teams can negotiate. Weird flex to suggest not playing them in playoffs. Do what you need to do to justify this history making gaffe. People leave jobs all the time for better opportunity and more money. Talent often gets poached. Why would hockey players with very finite careers be any different?

Oiler management chose inaction instead of actively negotiating with their two young guys coming off solid proving work in deep playoff competition. Consequences happens when the market, given an opening, set a new valuation. They walked themselves into a corner.

Yes they were holding out for the best deal. I applaud them, that’s how you bargain.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Yes they were holding out for the best deal. I applaud them, that’s how you bargain.

Smart for them. Dumb on Oilers management to not negotiate. Paid a big price for inaction.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

The players never provided a reason why they should do anything early. By the time they had it was too late. Maybe they shouldn’t have played them during the playoffs? Maybe that was a solution, though I think the oilers were trying to win a Stanley cup. One would think that would placate players who could go for it again the next year? Nope, they choose the money. So it’s good riddance.

Why should they be forced to take contracts below their value and roles beneath their ability when vastly inferior players like Jeff Skinner and Adam Henrique were getting paid double to triple what the Oilers were offering them? With the assumption that those veterans were likely going to be gifted higher spots in the lineup to boot.

 

[AM]

Why should they be forced to take contracts below their value and roles beneath their ability when vastly inferior players like Jeff Skinner and Adam Henrique were getting paid double to triple what the Oilers were offering them? With the assumption that those veterans were likely going to be gifted higher spots in the lineup to boot.

Well you are correct they arent slaves. However if they wanted to play on the oilers they had to sign the discount contract. They wanted to get paid instead of compete for the cup so good riddance. And yes, it’s easier to find time on the blues roster. Ever wonder why? It’s because players are signing discount contracts to play on the oilers.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Well you are correct they arent slaves. However if they wanted to play on the oilers they had to sign the discount contract. They wanted to get paid instead of compete for the cup so good riddance.

They wanted to play and contribute. Broberg took the AHL assignment and killed it. Then delivered for the team when they trusted him to play in apex playoff competition. Holloway moved up the line up in the playoffs. They did what the team asked and waited on a negotiation that didn't happen. Instead the Oilers spent and essentially ignored their two homegrown assets until the free market valued them differently.

The price of offer sheeting is an overpay requirement for it to work. Both players were communicated a vision of which they would have clear and meaningful roles. The Blues management put their money where that belief when the Oilers chose to spend beyond the cap ceiling without actively negotiating with their two young homegrown guys cited for praise as part of a great playoff run. Oilers badly misread the player relationships and made a strange decision to sluff off any negotiation at all. Another poor signal to their two young emerging players.

 

[AM]

They wanted to play and contribute. Broberg took the AHL assignment and killed it. Then delivered for the team when they trusted him to play in apex playoff competition. Holloway moved up the line up in the playoffs. They did what the team asked and waited on a negotiation that didn't happen. Instead the Oilers spent and essentially ignored their two homegrown assets until the free market valued them differently.

The price of offer sheeting is an overpay requirement for it to work. Both players were communicated a vision of which they would have clear and meaningful roles. The Blues management put their money where that belief when the Oilers chose to spend beyond the cap ceiling without actively negotiating with their two young homegrown guys cited for praise as part of a great playoff run. Oilers badly misread the player relationships and made a strange decision to sluff off any negotiation at all. Another poor signal to their two young emerging players.

I actually watched broberg when he got his opportunity’s. They weren’t pretty.

There is of course the injury issue also. Though somebody who is prone to injury may be an advantage in the nhl now. In that case broberg might be a gem in the rough.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I actually watched broberg when he got his opportunity’s. They weren’t pretty.

There is of course the injury issue also. Though somebody who is prone to injury may be an advantage in the nhl now. In that case broberg might be a gem in the rough.

I've watched Broberg from draft day and followed through all his stages of development. Believed he was going to cover his draft bet. Clear he needed time to mature physically (still does); adapt to faster, smaller, higher compete and physical North American play style; confidence that comes with getting consistent ice time and ability to play through mistakes; and face down an undervalued challenge to onboard on off shooting side (adding the change from European big ice to physical, fast and harder N American game). He showed great small sample runs right from initial first pro year in North America and a strong 12+ game run with Bouchard prior to the Ekholm deal.

I have a long leash for young, developing defensemen given the difficulty of the position. Historically the average age of d-men making the apex NHL competition has been around age 23.

So we clearly saw the player differently and evaluate him differently. He's now holding steady top 4 minutes in St Louis which will continue to have some downs with ups as he works towards more certainty that many experts feel requires 200 NHL games to lock in this tough position. Tough to lose for pennies on the draft pedigree and hard development miles.

 

[AM]

I've watched Broberg from draft day and followed through all his stages of development. Believed he was going to cover his draft bet. Clear he needed time to mature physically (still does); adapt to faster, smaller, higher compete and physical North American play style; confidence that comes with getting consistent ice time and ability to play through mistakes; and face down an undervalued challenge to onboard on off shooting side (adding the change from European big ice to physical, fast and harder N American game). He showed great small sample runs right from initial first pro year in North America and a strong 12+ game run with Bouchard prior to the Ekholm deal.

I have a long leash for young, developing defensemen given the difficulty of the position. Historically the average age of d-men making the apex NHL competition has been around age 23.

So we clearly saw the player differently and evaluate him differently. He's now holding steady top 4 minutes in St Louis which will continue to have some downs with ups as he works towards more certainty that many experts feel requires 200 NHL games to lock in this tough position. Tough to lose for pennies on the draft pedigree and hard development miles.

I don’t have anything against the kid. I just don’t see he is worth more than Bouchard this year.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I don’t have anything against the kid. I just don’t see he is worth more than Bouchard this year.

It's an irrelevancy. Bouchard is setting up nicely for his big, life changing payday. Team building is messy. Broberg wants to play. I think a trend to watch with modern era young players is an increasing belief in controlling their situation including utilizing the system to get traded to where they want to play and live. Broberg and Holloway might be the ultimate proving points of two young guys opting for opportunity/ice-time over team success, at least in this early stage of career building. And career stage in which they have not yet secured financial security.

 

[AM]

It's an irrelevancy. Bouchard is setting up nicely for his big, life changing payday. Team building is messy. Broberg wants to play. I think a trend to watch with modern era young players is an increasing belief in controlling their situation including utilizing the system to get traded to where they want to play and live. Broberg and Holloway might be the ultimate proving points of two young guys opting for opportunity/ice-time over team success, at least in this early stage of career building. And career stage in which they have not yet secured financial security.

And broberg will want to play with whichever team will provide broberg with the most benefit. Hopefully that’s not the oilers because I’d rather be contending for cups.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Well you are correct they arent slaves. However if they wanted to play on the oilers they had to sign the discount contract. They wanted to get paid instead of compete for the cup so good riddance. And yes, it’s easier to find time on the blues roster. Ever wonder why? It’s because players are signing discount contracts to play on the oilers.

I sure would like to have Holloway and Broberg's "overpays" instead of Skinner and Henrique's "discounts" right now. Heck I think Henrique might be dollar for dollar our worst center since Horcoff.

And broberg will want to play with whichever team will provide broberg with the most benefit. Hopefully that’s not the oilers because I’d rather be contending for cups.

We'd have a much better chance of competing for Cups if we spent 6 million on Holloway and Broberg instead of the trash duo. Henrique and Skinner make Puljujarvi/Yamamoto/Foegele contracts look like steals.

 

[AM]

I sure would like to have Holloway and Broberg's "overpays" instead of Skinner and Henrique's "discounts" right now. Heck I think Henrique might be dollar for dollar our worst center since Horcoff.

9-1.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

9-1.

What does our record these past 10 games have to do with my statement? Henrique and Skinner are sure as f*** not contributors to that success and in fact are active detriments to our team's ability to win games right now. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

 

[AM]

What does our record these past 10 games have to do with my statement? Henrique and Skinner are sure as f*** not contributors to that success and in fact are active detriments to our team's ability to win games right now. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

If it was 1-9 you might have a point. It takes a team game and they are managing this part of the schedule. Without crystal balls.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

If it was 1-9 you might have a point. It takes a team game and they are managing this part of the schedule. Without crystal balls.

Clown take. Team results are not indicative of individual player performance or even their effect on the team. If we're gonna go that route, we might as well blame McDavid and Draisaitl for the 2018-19 season.

 

[AM]

Clown take. Team results are not indicative of individual player performance or even their effect on the team. If we're gonna go that route, we might as well blame McDavid and Draisaitl for the 2018-19 season.

No they are indicative of a team and a coach who are finding a way in a salary cap league.

Personally I’m enjoying it and looking forward to how they do next month.