TV: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - Amazon Prime Series

[Dubi Doo]

Plus, Gandolf made Lord of the Rings, the movies, watchable.

That's a bold statement, my dude.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

I didn't finish the Hobbit movie trilogy and I find prequels boring. Who the hell were Amazon negotiating against that they paid 250M for something I doubt anyone wanted.

And how is this going to be a successful show? If you turn it into Game of Thrones, you will have all the fanboys whining and not watching. If you keep it true to the original source material, literally no one but fanboys will watch.

Plus, Gandolf made Lord of the Rings, the movies, watchable.

So people watched over 10 hours of the trilogy just to see 1 hour of Gandalf

 

[discostu]

I didn't finish the Hobbit movie trilogy and I find prequels boring. Who the hell were Amazon negotiating against that they paid 250M for something I doubt anyone wanted.

Apple, Netflix, HBO.

I agree with you that the odds of this failing are high. But, there's a chance that this becomes the next big show, and there's enough big companies that have been throwing money around, that it's not hard to see why it's so expensive.

Everyone is jockeying to see who's going to survive the streaming wars, and, one hit show is enough to guarantee survival. The belief is that big branded properties is what will stand out, and Disney+ owns the biggest brands. Middle earth is potentially the biggest brand outside of Disney's control right now.

 

[John Price]

Amazon’s ‘Lord Of The Rings’ Not Diverse Enough, Says ‘Mortal Kombat’ Star – The Hollywood Reporter

Asian: Why no asians in LOTR universe?

Maybe because there weren't any asians by default in the LOTR books and literature? Don't need to force them in.

 

[John Price]

So The Hobbit is actually free (w ads) on Peacock, an American NBC streaming service. I used that opportunity to watch the trilogy. About halfway through the 2nd movie so far.

It's not that bad actually and it's a series I could definitely finish up.

 

[John Price]

I didn't finish the Hobbit movie trilogy and I find prequels boring. Who the hell were Amazon negotiating against that they paid 250M for something I doubt anyone wanted.

And how is this going to be a successful show? If you turn it into Game of Thrones, you will have all the fanboys whining and not watching. If you keep it true to the original source material, literally no one but fanboys will watch.

Plus, Gandolf made Lord of the Rings, the movies, watchable.

It's not like "Gandolf" was omitted from the film, he plays a pretty prominent role even though personally I think he sounds older but obvious Ian was older than Gandalf in LOTR.

That being said the movies are way too long for a short literature story. It was stretched out big time. If it had been a 3 hour movie nobody would have complained, but in An Unexpected Journey we spend about 2 and a half hours watching dwarves invade Bilbo's place, Bilbo going on a short journey, meeting trolls and orcs, and finding the ring. That's it. You could do that in like 1 hour.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Amazon’s ‘Lord Of The Rings’ Not Diverse Enough, Says ‘Mortal Kombat’ Star – The Hollywood Reporter

Asian: Why no asians in LOTR universe?

Maybe because there weren't any asians by default in the LOTR books and literature? Don't need to force them in.

That's where we're heading, forced quotas in movies regardless of the source material. I call that pandering but that's me.

 

[beowulf]

Amazon’s ‘Lord Of The Rings’ Not Diverse Enough, Says ‘Mortal Kombat’ Star – The Hollywood Reporter

Asian: Why no asians in LOTR universe?

Maybe because there weren't any asians by default in the LOTR books and literature? Don't need to force them in.

We have to be careful where you take this discussion as you will get this deleted. I am not a fan of forced changes to a story especially when said story is was first published 80+ years ago. And is a fantasy world that includes orcs, Elves, Hobbits, etc.

 

[beowulf]

It's not like "Gandolf" was omitted from the film, he plays a pretty prominent role even though personally I think he sounds older but obvious Ian was older than Gandalf in LOTR.

That being said the movies are way too long for a short literature story. It was stretched out big time. If it had been a 3 hour movie nobody would have complained, but in An Unexpected Journey we spend about 2 and a half hours watching dwarves invade Bilbo's place, Bilbo going on a short journey, meeting trolls and orcs, and finding the ring. That's it. You could do that in like 1 hour.

The reason the movies is a trilogy is part money and part Jackson was given access to hundreds of pages of Hobbit material never before read by the public. Tolkien always wanted to re-release the Hobbit as more of an adult book that was going to be longer, close to the LotR trilogy of books but he died before he had a chance to complete it. Also his publisher wanted for decades for a second book to be released.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

We have to be careful where you take this discussion as you will get this deleted. I am not a fan of forced changes to a story especially when said story is was first published 80+ years ago. And is a fantasy world that includes orcs, Elves, Hobbits, etc.

I have not read the books, but is there any specification about the Elves, Hobbits and Dwarves skin color? Or do we just assume they are white because Tolkien was European?

 

[beowulf]

I have not read the books, but is there any specification about the Elves, Hobbits and Dwarves skin color? Or do we just assume they are white because Tolkien was European?

Yes and no, there is mention of course of the elves being fair skinned etc. So could you use that as fair skinned Asian actor playing elves? Dwarves I can't remember the main description of their appearance is short, stalky and with bears/long hair (even the women). Hobbits the main features are they are short, shortest of the races in Middle-Earth, and have larger feet that are covered in hair on the top. And this does not include the races that don't look like humans...

There are the race of men to the east, the Easterlings, which could be Asian in appearance but we never really see them.

There are the Haradrim, which are also to the East and would be more like middle eastern people in our world. Darker hair and skin.
We see them in this scene among others in the original trilogy though Jackson supposedly used the Aztecs and Pacific Tribes as inspiration for their look.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Yes and no, there is mention of course of the elves being fair skinned etc. So could you use that as fair skinned Asian actor playing elves? Dwarves I can't remember the main description of their appearance is short, stalky and with bears/long hair (even the women). Hobbits the main features are they are short, shortest of the races in Middle-Earth, and have larger feet that are covered in hair on the top. And this does not include the races that don't look like humans...

There are the race of men to the east, the Easterlings, which could be Asian in appearance but we never really see them.

There are the Haradrim, which are also to the East and would be more like middle eastern people in our world. Darker hair and skin.
We see them in this scene among others in the original trilogy though Jackson supposedly used the Aztecs and Pacific Tribes as inspiration for their look.

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it.

So, basically, you can incorporate diversity in a LOTR project without messing with the core material at all. So the casting choices in the past had more to do with representation in Hollywood cinema than it has to do with the core material. Now that representation is done differently, different casting choices can be made. LOTR is a huge franchise so having a diverse representation can be a good thing.

To me, this is even less controversial than the Superman debate from last week. Superman was created in a visual media and was represented as white forever. Changing that is more of a cultural shift and I understand opposition to it. I can easily live with the change because it does not change anything to the core of the character, but I listen to SOME arguments against it (as long as the person stays away from blatant racism and most can).

For LOTR, if the book do not really mention skin colors, well, you can add diversity pretty easily and it should not be controversial at all.

 

[beowulf]

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it.

So, basically, you can incorporate diversity in a LOTR project without messing with the core material at all. So the casting choices in the past had more to do with representation in Hollywood cinema than it has to do with the core material. Now that representation is done differently, different casting choices can be made. LOTR is a huge franchise so having a diverse representation can be a good thing.

To me, this is even less controversial than the Superman debate from last week. Superman was created in a visual media and was represented as white forever. Changing that is more of a cultural shift and I understand opposition to it. I can easily live with the change because it does not change anything to the core of the character, but I listen to SOME arguments against it (as long as the person stays away from blatant racism and most can).

For LOTR, if the book do not really mention skin colors, well, you can add diversity pretty easily and it should not be controversial at all.

The main character though in the world of Middle-earth are more detailed in how they are presented with regards to race and stuff along with certain groups within Middle-earth.

And if you think this would not be controversial at all...you don't know LotR fans and scholars. Just making Arwen's (Liv Tyler) storyline much large in the original movie trilogy was controversial at first, as she has a much smaller role in the books.

Here is a passage of Tolkien introducing Arwen

In the middle of the table, against the woven cloths upon the wall, there was a chair under a canopy, and there sat a lady fair to look upon, and so like was she in form of womanhood to Elrond that Frodo guessed that she was one of his close kindred. Young she was and yet not so. The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost, her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.


Hobbits

• The Harfoots were the most common Hobbits. They were smaller and shorter than the other kinds and had browner skin. They did not grow beards and rarely wore shoes or boots. They were skilled with their hands and feet and preferred hillsides and highlands to live in. In ancient times, they had frequent contact with the Dwarves of Middle-earth and lived in the foothills of the mountains for a long time. While the other varieties of Hobbits were still in the Wilderland, the Harfoots moved west, travelling across Eriador as far as Weathertop.

• The Stoors often chose to live near water or on flat land. They were broader and heavier in build than the other Hobbits and their feet and hands were larger. They were the most reluctant variety of Hobbit to leave the River Anduin, where some Stoors continued to stay. Others travelled west after the Harfoots and followed the River Loudwater southward. Many of the Stoors settled between Tharbad and the borders of Dunland before they continued north.

• The Fallohides, who preferred trees and woodland, were the least common variety of Hobbits. They had fairer skin and hair and were taller and slimmer than the others. They also had better relations with the elves of Middle-earth, were more skilled with language and song, and preferred hunting to tilling. They crossed the mountains north of Rivendell and then followed the River Hoarwell.

For Men, Tolkien uses the following as descriptors of the skin of the various race of men Pale, sallow, ruddy, light tan, dark tan, brownish, black.

It's an expansive world that he created and I think adding "asian" characters, even though asians as such don't exist in this world, would have to be done without changing a main/existing character in the world. Now this show is supposed to be a prequel to LotR, based on some of Tolkien's notes, etc. So there is room for additions as long as long time characters are not touched. I mean Tolkien was so expansive in his world building that he goes back into the 4 ages of Middle-earth and lists many characters ancestors and where they are from etc.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I said I found it LESS controversial than the Superman debate, not that it would not be. Everything is controversial these days... and it sucks.

 

[Osprey]

It's an expansive world that he created and I think adding "asian" characters, even though asians as such don't exist in this world, would have to be done without changing a main/existing character in the world. Now this show is supposed to be a prequel to LotR, based on some of Tolkien's notes, etc. So there is room for additions as long as long time characters are not touched. I mean Tolkien was so expansive in his world building that he goes back into the 4 ages of Middle-earth and lists many characters ancestors and where they are from etc.

This is my feeling, as well. Changing any characters or races from how they were portrayed before will likely lead to backlash. If the story calls for a new race that Tolkien didn't create or did but didn't describe too specifically, then that would be a better opportunity to do it, IMO. I would still worry that it's being forced, though. As you pointed out, Arwen had a much larger role in the movie trilogy than in the novels, no doubt because more female representation and a love story were wanted, and I don't think that it was beneficial. I'd worry about that happening by trying to fit other demographics into LotR, but it may be doable.

 

[RandV]

Kind of an interesting approach because Amazon's other big fantasy series they're working on The Wheel of Time they took the opposite approach. While there's diversity in the world itself the starting point of the story The Two Rivers, a peaceful isolated backwoods region which is an intentional human imitation of the Shire, they've gone with diverse casting.

And it doesn't bother me in the least bit. I see it as a measure of reality interposing itself on fiction. In the real world the creators, the builders, the talent, and the audience are diverse. But just going with the old status quo everything on screen would be just white, apart from the odd token role.

Reading between the lines what actor Ludi Lin is saying above is he can't be cast in a Lord of the Rings role simply because he's Asian. This is probably his own and his peers common experience over the years, and when a significant portion of the community is Asian it becomes more of a union issue. So as fiction is just fiction what the industry needs is to find a balance between opening things up and not getting ridiculous. Using WoT I don't think asking that a regular small fantasy town could be represented like a real North American town is pushing too much.

 

[Prairie Habs]

We have to be careful where you take this discussion as you will get this deleted. I am not a fan of forced changes to a story especially when said story is was first published 80+ years ago. And is a fantasy world that includes orcs, Elves, Hobbits, etc.

So you can believe a story with orcs, elves, and hobbits, but not one with minorities? It also isn't "forced changes" when they are creating a new story with new characters.

I really don't see why people would be upset with having an inclusive cast. Did they enjoy Middle Earth for the world building, history, and fantasy, or was it because everyone had the same complexion?

 

[beowulf]

So you can believe a story with orcs, elves, and hobbits, but not one with minorities? It also isn't "forced changes" when they are creating a new story with new characters.

I really don't see why people would be upset with having an inclusive cast. Did they enjoy Middle Earth for the world building, history, and fantasy, or was it because everyone had the same complexion?

Hey bud where did I say I was not for an inclusive cast?

 

[Prairie Habs]

Hey bud where did I say I was not for an inclusive cast?

Wasn't really targeting it at you, hence my use of the word "people", just using your comment about the fantasy elements as a jumping off point to address something I have seen complained about in others places. Its all made up anyway, so I don't see any reason to get hung up on what they look like.

 

[John Price]

Since we're talking Hobbit and LOTR I've got to say I don't see why people didn't like the Hobbit trilogy. It's not LOTR but it's still a pretty good story. Just finished the 2nd movie right now

 

[beowulf]

Since we're talking Hobbit and LOTR I've got to say I don't see why people didn't like the Hobbit trilogy. It's not LOTR but it's still a pretty good story. Just finished the 2nd movie right now

I liked it. I think some, not all, didn't like it because of the extended nature compared to the original novel. But again this trilogy is based on not just The Hobbit book but the extended notes from Tolkien who had planned on rewriting it to be in the same tone as the LotR books. The Hobbit was not written with publication in mind, it was done for his daughter but a family friend hot her hands on it, read it loved and and convinced him to submit it for publication and the rest is history.

 

[discostu]

I liked it. I think some, not all, didn't like it because of the extended nature compared to the original novel. But again this trilogy is based on not just The Hobbit book but the extended notes from Tolkien who had planned on rewriting it to be in the same tone as the LotR books. The Hobbit was not written with publication in mind, it was done for his daughter but a family friend hot her hands on it, read it loved and and convinced him to submit it for publication and the rest is history.

I've never finished the Hobbit trilogy, despite watching the orignal LOTR trilogy every year.

The first one still feels like a labour of love. I felt The Hobbit really needed a different director to five it a different vision and feel to it. It's a shame Guillermo Del Toro didn't take on the project.

There's nothing specifically bad about the Hobbit movies, but it just wasn't captivating to me.

 

[beowulf]

I've never finished the Hobbit trilogy, despite watching the orignal LOTR trilogy every year.

The first one still feels like a labour of love. I felt The Hobbit really needed a different director to five it a different vision and feel to it. It's a shame Guillermo Del Toro didn't take on the project.

There's nothing specifically bad about the Hobbit movies, but it just wasn't captivating to me.

Ohh I definitely am a much bigger fan of the LotR trilogy. I bought the fancy extended version Blu Ray that I watch every year also. I liked the Hobbit but never bought them well I have the first one but that was a gift from one of my brothers.

 

[John Price]

I've never finished the Hobbit trilogy, despite watching the orignal LOTR trilogy every year.

The first one still feels like a labour of love. I felt The Hobbit really needed a different director to five it a different vision and feel to it. It's a shame Guillermo Del Toro didn't take on the project.

There's nothing specifically bad about the Hobbit movies, but it just wasn't captivating to me.

part of the reason i'm watching is that it is free on streaming services here (for a limited time i suppose) so i wanted to push them out. I had them saved on my DVR but never got around to them.

I think it's a solid story but the major thing is how it took 3 movies just to tell the story

 

[beowulf]

part of the reason i'm watching is that it is free on streaming services here (for a limited time i suppose) so i wanted to push them out. I had them saved on my DVR but never got around to them.

I think it's a solid story but the major thing is how it took 3 movies just to tell the story

Money money money lol

Add some extra pages and notes given to them by the family and suddenly you get all the extra content and 3 movies.

EDIT: also if I recall Jackson at first thought it would be 2 movies and waffled back and forth with 3 so I would not be surprised if some producers said go 3 we want money