PeteWorrell
[...]
- Aug 31, 2006
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It's sad how people suddenly forgot how to write strong female characters. We used to have the likes of Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor but now we have whatever they did to Galadriel.
TV: The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - Amazon Prime Series
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RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
It's only politics on dumb places on the internet that people want to argue it. In reality it's actually business. We live in a diverse society, and the industry itself is diverse. It's long past the days of white Hollywood for white America, the film industry is global now.
A good example that someone else brought up, anyone getting into acting these days whether film or theatre is going to come across doing some Shakespeare. Should roles in big Shakespeare productions be reserved exclusively for white people because that's the historical era? It's one thing if it's a movie like The King or a show like Vikings, but fantasy like theatre doesn't really need to stick with it. I mean think of video games for a minute, LotR has inspired tons of 'European' themed fantasy games. They usually come with a character creation screen where you can change the skin tone of your character, and I've never seen anyone complain there.
DanielPlainview
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2009
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It is political all of the time. Audiences don’t care about diversity for the sake of it or having society reflected back at them - stories have zero obligation to reflect “our society”. And it doesn’t sell shit. What sells is good storytelling and that is accomplished best, in this case, by sticking to what Tolkien wrote.
If you’re going to do a hokey version of Shakespeare, no. If you’re going for authenticity, yes. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with an all white cast for a story just as there isn’t an issue with an all Asian one or all African or whatever. As long as a story is well told and the casting makes sense, audiences will show up and continue to watch. IMO, this is no more clear than in this latest phase from Marvel. Shang Chi was by the best movie and it was entirely Asian/ Asian-American leads. No one cared. It made beaucoup dollarinos. And it all made sense. Audiences will be back for a sequel if/when it’s made because of that.
I'm not sure that using this version of Galadriel as an example of how a strong female character is written today is really fair. I mean, this entire show was garbage imo so what they did to her characer was kind of par for the course. I guess opinions will vary on the quality of the show though.
But Marvel has had some strong female characters in their films, even if they weren't the leads. Sharon Carter, Peggy Carter, Maria Hill... I thought all of those characters were well done. I didn't especially like the Captain Marvel film, but I didn't have a problem with the way the character was portrayed.
RobBrown4PM
Pringles?
- Oct 12, 2009
- 8,932
- 2,855
I once saw a rendition of Macbeth where the titular character was played by a black female. Duncan too was played by a female actress.
The shock. The horror. A tragedy that will never be overcome.
Honestly, I don't know if these two would even be... good characters today, Ripley especially (Connor was in a terrible movie more recently but hard to blame the character in particular). But I also think Cameron's handling of Ripley was terrible and painted the character in a bad corner. 3 and 4 are particularly bad films, and there's hardly anything in the portrayal of Ripley that saves them. Well ok I actually really like 4 but I'm a bit ashamed of that...
There's probably never been as many good portrayals of women in television or film, just by the sheer number now and the availability of more niche stories being out there (when they're not cancelled) so it's difficult to resonate with that point anyway. But Galadriel is not written the same way at all, and it's not just a question of poor execution. Galadriel is evidently wrong in season one, her reasoning is largely flawed and ends up falling apart at the conclusion. I didn't particularly like her either and I do think that they sort of forgot to write a character beyond the overarching idea of her mistakes, but it was moreso someone flawed because of their idea of strength rather than someone virtuous in it, which she does end up being in the story, so I'm willing to forego some criticism here until later.
These Are The Days
I need about tree fiddy
I just finished the first season yesterday and most of my complaints are the same as everyone else's but I do have a few of my own
Clean up Galadriel's dialogue and she'll be fine. Her problem is that she just needs to say the most clever thing on the show at least 3 times per episode and it's nonsense you'd find on a fortune cookie.
LOL that Gandalf can go from infantile and incapable of either communication or eating food properly to Gandalf in a matter of a few weeks
I don't think I've ever seen a more useless character than Isildur. Holy f*** man. PLEASE tell me this dude died and someone else who shares the same name as him is gonna be the one who cuts the ring from Sauron's hand. For the love of God I will get down on my knees and beg. It can't be some dude who stares into the sun all day sailing on a douchecanoe. This is gonna possibly ruin the show for me. Can we just sorta span forward 500-600 years after season 2?
Alright so I know Sauron can shape shift. He's like an angelic being in his own right anyway and appears in many beautiful forms in order to seduce others in his own route to power. Totally get it. He's an angelic sociopath who manipulates the 3 elven rings into being crafted. But did I SERIOUSLY have to sit through like 5 episodes of this dude ripping the worst Jon Snow impression I have ever seen? Moreover, he goes to the Southlands, he's named king of this civilization that is apparently no bigger than a tavern 30 people drink at, watches Mt. Doom blow up, goes back to Numenor only to run as soon as the jig is up.
I have never wanted someone to not be the bad guy as much as I wanted Halbrand to NOT be Sauron. I almost always love the bad guy. And I was actually half hoping he WAS some long lost king and would become one of the Nazgul or just this drifting bum who makes up stories to get by. I did it because didn't think ACTUAL f***ing Sauron has nothing better to do than ride around lost in the middle of the ocean on rafts or getting thrown in jail, steal those little guild badges and get into street scuffles and save the life of the person who wants him dead more than anyone on the planet. Holy f***ing shit boys. This is WWF Attitude Era levels of "pointless things happening so we can have a gotcha moment"
The good stuff
Durin's character is amazing
The portrayal of Elrond might be the best adaptation I've seen since Ewan McGregor's Obi Wan Kenobi
The Harfoot story interrupts fast paced stories so much that it's damn near boring. Thank God it's actually very well written
The Balrog had me cheering but sadly nothing came of it
The creation of Mt. Doom was masterfully done. I didn't know how an active volcano could just get manufactured but I'll be damned if this was not believable. Without sounding insensitive, it felt like I was watching the Middle Earth equivalent of September 11th. I don't know if that was their intention but it got me the closest to that "oh shit" feeling that I've had in 22 years. You realize the horrible thing a few seconds before it happens and you can't turn away and you can't stop it.
It takes major balls to show something like a woman getting her throat slit. I'm not a fan of such violence but I have noticed my entire life that movies and shows always act like such things never happen and gloss over it. It was immediately noticeable to me and (thank God) it just makes me hate violence more
This can be VERY well done going forward but they have to stop relying on such lazy writing and convenient plot devices. I know "it just happened to be that way" is the crux of Tolkien's work but we have seen enough of it already.
LOL that Gandalf can go from infantile and incapable of either communication or eating food properly to Gandalf in a matter of a few weeks
I don't think I've ever seen a more useless character than Isildur. Holy f*** man. PLEASE tell me this dude died and someone else who shares the same name as him is gonna be the one who cuts the ring from Sauron's hand. For the love of God I will get down on my knees and beg. It can't be some dude who stares into the sun all day sailing on a douchecanoe. This is gonna possibly ruin the show for me. Can we just sorta span forward 500-600 years after season 2?
Alright so I know Sauron can shape shift. He's like an angelic being in his own right anyway and appears in many beautiful forms in order to seduce others in his own route to power. Totally get it. He's an angelic sociopath who manipulates the 3 elven rings into being crafted. But did I SERIOUSLY have to sit through like 5 episodes of this dude ripping the worst Jon Snow impression I have ever seen? Moreover, he goes to the Southlands, he's named king of this civilization that is apparently no bigger than a tavern 30 people drink at, watches Mt. Doom blow up, goes back to Numenor only to run as soon as the jig is up.
I have never wanted someone to not be the bad guy as much as I wanted Halbrand to NOT be Sauron. I almost always love the bad guy. And I was actually half hoping he WAS some long lost king and would become one of the Nazgul or just this drifting bum who makes up stories to get by. I did it because didn't think ACTUAL f***ing Sauron has nothing better to do than ride around lost in the middle of the ocean on rafts or getting thrown in jail, steal those little guild badges and get into street scuffles and save the life of the person who wants him dead more than anyone on the planet. Holy f***ing shit boys. This is WWF Attitude Era levels of "pointless things happening so we can have a gotcha moment"
The good stuff
Durin's character is amazing
The portrayal of Elrond might be the best adaptation I've seen since Ewan McGregor's Obi Wan Kenobi
The Harfoot story interrupts fast paced stories so much that it's damn near boring. Thank God it's actually very well written
The Balrog had me cheering but sadly nothing came of it
The creation of Mt. Doom was masterfully done. I didn't know how an active volcano could just get manufactured but I'll be damned if this was not believable. Without sounding insensitive, it felt like I was watching the Middle Earth equivalent of September 11th. I don't know if that was their intention but it got me the closest to that "oh shit" feeling that I've had in 22 years. You realize the horrible thing a few seconds before it happens and you can't turn away and you can't stop it.
It takes major balls to show something like a woman getting her throat slit. I'm not a fan of such violence but I have noticed my entire life that movies and shows always act like such things never happen and gloss over it. It was immediately noticeable to me and (thank God) it just makes me hate violence more
This can be VERY well done going forward but they have to stop relying on such lazy writing and convenient plot devices. I know "it just happened to be that way" is the crux of Tolkien's work but we have seen enough of it already.
LightningStorm
Lightning/Mets/Vikings
Middle Earth being all white is a Peter Jackson invention, not a Tolkien one. Sure elves are white, but Harfoot Hobbits are brown skinned, and I didn't see many complaints about Harfoots such as Nori, Poppy, and Sam being white. I wonder why...
LightningStorm
Lightning/Mets/Vikings
Could not agree with you more about Halbrand.
Having him be Sauron is up there with the DUMBEST plot twist I've ever seen. As you said, he does not resemble Sauron one bit, The angelic being you mention, when Sauron names himself Annatar, tells them he's a maia spirit (which Sauron is). An elf would be eager for crafting advice from a maia, especially one of Aule, which Annatar claimed he was (plus Sauron did serve him prior to joining Morgoth). But someone who Celebrimbor thought was a man? Halbrand giving them crafting advice would've led to him getting laughed out of Eregion. Plus Sauron is very methotical and calculating, and would've never accomplished his plans if he were as brash and impulsive as Halbrand.
In addition, him being Sauron completely wastes Halbrand's character, who I found compelling. There were 2 perfect options for who his character could've become: a Nazgul or King of the Dead. That would be a natural outcome for his character. But by making him Sauron, it's basically throwing Halbrand's character in the trash, since it was merely a façade to cover up him being Sauron.
Another issue was the execution of the twist. Someone summed up the poor setup best when he said the problem is Halbrand is a passive character who's mostly dragged along by Galadriel and other external circumstances, rather than setting anything into motion himself.
In addition, him being Sauron completely wastes Halbrand's character, who I found compelling. There were 2 perfect options for who his character could've become: a Nazgul or King of the Dead. That would be a natural outcome for his character. But by making him Sauron, it's basically throwing Halbrand's character in the trash, since it was merely a façade to cover up him being Sauron.
Another issue was the execution of the twist. Someone summed up the poor setup best when he said the problem is Halbrand is a passive character who's mostly dragged along by Galadriel and other external circumstances, rather than setting anything into motion himself.
These Are The Days
I need about tree fiddy
Re: Halbrand
One thing I did not touch on was how irritating it is/was that The Southlands apparently are descendants of those loyal to Morgoth. Orcs come in with this dark, scary, spooky business and they're all "Oh no" about it except the barkeep? Good God man. That is literally a lack of plot continuity within an actual ongoing plot. They should have been rejoicing at the sight of orcs.
I wish I could have found him interesting. He immediately reminded me of someone I only briefly (thank God) worked with who just wandered around aimlessly yammering on for hours and hours wasting time on his (literally) one scheduled work day. He had to be dragged along for anything productive and STILL managed to call out half the time. Imagine this bloke 2 days a month and it's like "Aw f***. HE is working?" Otherwise for me Halbrand was like a bad mesh of Episode II Anakin Skywalker mixed with Jon Snow doing the whole "I don' wun' et" speeches every time he had to do anything.
Amazon was only able to acquire the rights to The Hobbit and LOTR and were a little handcuffed to Sauron's official backstory but even then I found it horribly done.
Hindsight is easy right now but holy shit. I seriously could have done better than this. The blacksmith from the Southlands makes sense enough. It's a perfect lure. But there's just so much time wasting with him being in jail and street scuffles, being lost at sea etc. It didn't do ANYTHING for me. I would have been perfectly content to see him die somehow. A truly evil tyrant who seduces people would have been watching Galadriel the whole time. Known her every move before even she did. He'd have met her in Numenor after she was being picked up from said wayward ship. He'd have confided with her in some sort of "I just escaped from the Southlands. I was held in captivity by an army of orcs. They're digging tunnels and I don't know why. There's something horrible going on. I came to Numenor to plead for aid" speech. She would have been puddy in his hands. He'd arrange her release from jail. He'd been there with her visit to Elrond and Celebrimor. He'd have figured out what they were up to with the Mithril and baited them with some sort of display of unseen prowess in men and had some "The lives of your people are at stake just as much as mine" speech because he is posing as a blacksmith begging for Elven aid in exchange for saving their race. All in all he's really just gambling his ONE RING will have enough power to enslave them just as well as it would the Nazgul later. He's had the plan for some time and now is his chance to get it going.
At some point he makes clear to Galadriel that nothing short of a God would best her in combat and this ring she's making is close to Godhood itself. This is why Sauron doesn't just kill her there. It's incredibly risky. Even for him. And we both know Galadriel loves her damn power trip. Either way he tries to lure Galadriel to her death and kill the kingdom of Numenor all at once in the Mt. Doom explosion after making sure his sword hilt falls into the wrong hands. It's the most efficient plan he has to kill everyone without a war considering his army can't fight in the sun. He doesn't count on Galadriel's ring saving most of them. It at least offers SOME explanation for the lazy "everyone but the main characters die lmao" plot device. It was more powerful than he thought. She was supposed to die. Halbrand the man is missing and presumed dead. Galadriel has no idea that her nemesis lives and was with her the whole time. Sauron confidently sticks to his plan that HIS ring will be even more powerful and uses his AWOL status to seduce the kingdom of dwarves and men as well. We have his dramatic reveal with something like Adar calling him Sauron asking what they do next and he replies "Prepare. She'll be coming back"
And yes...... THIS IS better! Or we just do Halbrand later being King Of The Dead too. I hate to say it but I think it was done the way it was in order to fill 8 episodes of content. I'd like to hope my own fan fic is a more direct/less-nonsense approach. I don't know how the f*** Sauron is supposed to keep making rings on her watch like this.
I wish I could have found him interesting. He immediately reminded me of someone I only briefly (thank God) worked with who just wandered around aimlessly yammering on for hours and hours wasting time on his (literally) one scheduled work day. He had to be dragged along for anything productive and STILL managed to call out half the time. Imagine this bloke 2 days a month and it's like "Aw f***. HE is working?" Otherwise for me Halbrand was like a bad mesh of Episode II Anakin Skywalker mixed with Jon Snow doing the whole "I don' wun' et" speeches every time he had to do anything.
Amazon was only able to acquire the rights to The Hobbit and LOTR and were a little handcuffed to Sauron's official backstory but even then I found it horribly done.
Hindsight is easy right now but holy shit. I seriously could have done better than this. The blacksmith from the Southlands makes sense enough. It's a perfect lure. But there's just so much time wasting with him being in jail and street scuffles, being lost at sea etc. It didn't do ANYTHING for me. I would have been perfectly content to see him die somehow. A truly evil tyrant who seduces people would have been watching Galadriel the whole time. Known her every move before even she did. He'd have met her in Numenor after she was being picked up from said wayward ship. He'd have confided with her in some sort of "I just escaped from the Southlands. I was held in captivity by an army of orcs. They're digging tunnels and I don't know why. There's something horrible going on. I came to Numenor to plead for aid" speech. She would have been puddy in his hands. He'd arrange her release from jail. He'd been there with her visit to Elrond and Celebrimor. He'd have figured out what they were up to with the Mithril and baited them with some sort of display of unseen prowess in men and had some "The lives of your people are at stake just as much as mine" speech because he is posing as a blacksmith begging for Elven aid in exchange for saving their race. All in all he's really just gambling his ONE RING will have enough power to enslave them just as well as it would the Nazgul later. He's had the plan for some time and now is his chance to get it going.
At some point he makes clear to Galadriel that nothing short of a God would best her in combat and this ring she's making is close to Godhood itself. This is why Sauron doesn't just kill her there. It's incredibly risky. Even for him. And we both know Galadriel loves her damn power trip. Either way he tries to lure Galadriel to her death and kill the kingdom of Numenor all at once in the Mt. Doom explosion after making sure his sword hilt falls into the wrong hands. It's the most efficient plan he has to kill everyone without a war considering his army can't fight in the sun. He doesn't count on Galadriel's ring saving most of them. It at least offers SOME explanation for the lazy "everyone but the main characters die lmao" plot device. It was more powerful than he thought. She was supposed to die. Halbrand the man is missing and presumed dead. Galadriel has no idea that her nemesis lives and was with her the whole time. Sauron confidently sticks to his plan that HIS ring will be even more powerful and uses his AWOL status to seduce the kingdom of dwarves and men as well. We have his dramatic reveal with something like Adar calling him Sauron asking what they do next and he replies "Prepare. She'll be coming back"
And yes...... THIS IS better! Or we just do Halbrand later being King Of The Dead too. I hate to say it but I think it was done the way it was in order to fill 8 episodes of content. I'd like to hope my own fan fic is a more direct/less-nonsense approach. I don't know how the f*** Sauron is supposed to keep making rings on her watch like this.
DanielPlainview
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2009
- 8,913
- 3,163
LightningStorm
Lightning/Mets/Vikings
I know, I remember all the mental gymnastics people did for why "brown skinned" doesn't simply mean that.
DanielPlainview
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2009
- 8,913
- 3,163
Hivemind
We're Touched
Take your thinly veiled prejudice elsewhere
DanielPlainview
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2009
- 8,913
- 3,163
LightningStorm
Lightning/Mets/Vikings
DanielPlainview
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2009
- 8,913
- 3,163
Please share where people argued that Harfoots are not described as swarthy or that swarthy means something else
For the record, only Samwise was a Harfoot. Tooks, Brandybucks, and Baggins are Fallohides, IIRC
Hivemind
We're Touched
Nah, there's just no point in arguing with the likes of you. You know what they say about arguing with fools.
LightningStorm
Lightning/Mets/Vikings
DanielPlainview
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2009
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hotcabbagesoup
"I'm going to get what I deserve" -RutgerMcgroarty
Agreed. These two are almost as bad as D&D (of GOT). I wish we had someone else as screenwriters.
Hivemind
We're Touched
As much as I loathe YouTubers diving into hour-long video essays to pick apart media adaptations, NOTR is the exception here. Rather than trojan horsing a bunch of cringe-worthy culture war takes, this is an even-handed and on-topic review of the whole season that actually focuses on the show and its originating material rather than social commentary. NOTR has been involved in the LOTR youtube far predating this show and been doing tons of RoP content before and during the season (including interviews with many actors and others involved in the show). Don't agree with everything he says (and there's things that I feel are essential criticisms of the show he doesn't touch on), but I do with the bulk of it.
Long as hell, but well done.
Long as hell, but well done.
DanielPlainview
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2009
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Pretty milquetoast review overall, honestly. Extensive talking about the most basic and obviously things about the show.
I'm kind of amused at myself that I gave more of a chance to Wheel of Time than this show. Put on the first episode, watched 20 minutes, left to help a friend with something, never picked the show back up. All the shit I've read about the show coupled with Wheel of Time being incredibly meh and actually being a fan of the LOTR property, I really haven't been able to work out the desire to continue just to see it.
