Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
- 62,018
The Kapanen Method
- Thread starter Stephen
- Start date
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LeafsFan89
Registered User
- Jan 2, 2011
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Good. Let's off load one of Tavares, Marner, Nylander or Matthews.
But Leafs management has too much pride in this core and in themselves to make the changes necessary.
Menzinger
Kessel4LadyByng
Kerfoot/Holl likely the main culprits that fit that description. Both guys probably high probability they are moved to open up space (or bring back something else of value like a goalie).
I think Brodie is too valuable as a rhd to consider doing something like that. Muzzin a strong possibility though (despite his resurgence in the post season). They'll want Sandin and Lily as full timers likely to start the season, so some bodies will need to be rearranged on the back end likely for futures (more so if they indeed want to ink Gio).
I think Brodie is too valuable as a rhd to consider doing something like that. Muzzin a strong possibility though (despite his resurgence in the post season). They'll want Sandin and Lily as full timers likely to start the season, so some bodies will need to be rearranged on the back end likely for futures (more so if they indeed want to ink Gio).
Stephen
Moderator
- Feb 28, 2002
- 83,102
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Yeah I don't want to get too sentimental on a Muzzin resurgence. Sell while the going is good, re-up Giordano cheap and spend the remainder somewhere else. And also have a modest futures return.
Muzzin is definitely a candidate for this if you get Gio back and cheap.
Holl will be too, and he'll get a better positive value return than his haters think. I wouldn't mind him back tbh, but Sandin/Liljegren gotta play and I'd imagine they will have a Lyubushkin-esque D (hopefully one that can pass though) from day one.
Kerfoot, especially after his bonus is paid, should net a 2nd+
Engvall and Kase's RFA rights could bet something too, but I suspect Engvall is definitely back.
Probably looking at atleast three top 100 picks, prospects, and later picks if you deal Muzzin/Holl/Kerfoot like this... and a bit over $11M to re-allocate.
(Side note: this isn't even that bad of a use of $11M if you look around the league, so let's back off JT a little lmao)
Holl will be too, and he'll get a better positive value return than his haters think. I wouldn't mind him back tbh, but Sandin/Liljegren gotta play and I'd imagine they will have a Lyubushkin-esque D (hopefully one that can pass though) from day one.
Kerfoot, especially after his bonus is paid, should net a 2nd+
Engvall and Kase's RFA rights could bet something too, but I suspect Engvall is definitely back.
Probably looking at atleast three top 100 picks, prospects, and later picks if you deal Muzzin/Holl/Kerfoot like this... and a bit over $11M to re-allocate.
(Side note: this isn't even that bad of a use of $11M if you look around the league, so let's back off JT a little lmao)
Buds17
Registered User
- Nov 29, 2015
- 8,590
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Trading Kapanen back to Pittsburgh lined up well in a few ways:
-GM Jim Rutherford re-acquiring a player he had previously traded away
-Kapanen being a third liner on the Leafs
-Kapanen having three seasons of team control remaining at the time of the trade
I view Brodie as a keeper due to playing RD. Muzzin could be a viable option if he's willing to waive and Giordano is re-signed (could be asking for a lot here). Kerfoot might make the most sense of the three if he isn't going to be playing in the top six. That said, any trade return could be impacted by a ten team veto and one year left on his contract prior to UFA status.
-GM Jim Rutherford re-acquiring a player he had previously traded away
-Kapanen being a third liner on the Leafs
-Kapanen having three seasons of team control remaining at the time of the trade
I view Brodie as a keeper due to playing RD. Muzzin could be a viable option if he's willing to waive and Giordano is re-signed (could be asking for a lot here). Kerfoot might make the most sense of the three if he isn't going to be playing in the top six. That said, any trade return could be impacted by a ten team veto and one year left on his contract prior to UFA status.
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Dreakmur
Registered User
With the salary cap, we should have been recycling RFAs the whole time. Draft, develop, use the ELC years, then toss them to another team to pay.... rinse, repeat.
That and they're not completely batshit insane.
Super Mega
Registered User
- Jun 29, 2013
- 2,710
- 401
Rutherford was horny to get Kapanen back and he got fleeced, that's not the basis for plausible future trades as nice as that might be
tmlms13
Registered User
Kapanen was traded because:
1) Cap
2) He was a weird fit for the team. Didn't mesh with any of the centers really well and didn't play his off wing very well. He's a natural right winger on a team where Nylander and Marner are the top right wingers. He was never gonna take either of their jobs. Nylander playing the left side is something that was tried only recently.
3) The Leafs saw the writing on the wall with him when it came to his future with the organization but he was still young with promise and netted some good assets in return.
4) Muzzin, Brodie and Holl are not like Kapanen.
The guy most like him is actually Sandin:
1) Young, still with a lot of promise but he's had a rough stint in Toronto. Team has never fully committed to him and he's had injury issues this year.
2) His future with the team is unclear right now. If Giordano comes back I don't see who you slot out for him. Rielly, no. Gio, no. Muzzin, no.
1) Cap
2) He was a weird fit for the team. Didn't mesh with any of the centers really well and didn't play his off wing very well. He's a natural right winger on a team where Nylander and Marner are the top right wingers. He was never gonna take either of their jobs. Nylander playing the left side is something that was tried only recently.
3) The Leafs saw the writing on the wall with him when it came to his future with the organization but he was still young with promise and netted some good assets in return.
4) Muzzin, Brodie and Holl are not like Kapanen.
The guy most like him is actually Sandin:
1) Young, still with a lot of promise but he's had a rough stint in Toronto. Team has never fully committed to him and he's had injury issues this year.
2) His future with the team is unclear right now. If Giordano comes back I don't see who you slot out for him. Rielly, no. Gio, no. Muzzin, no.
How do we get better from trading a PPG player?
Engvall could hold similar value to Kapanen as an RFA. A 6'5" forward that can skate, PK, and bury a few would be very valuable.
If we feel enough of Anderson/Robertson/Steeves are ready to make the jump I could see that being a play we make.
janesy12
Leafs Nation
Dubas made an excellent trade last summer in acquiring Jared McCann. A great player to play alongside Tavares.
Well...he woulda been if they didn't completely galaxy brain it and end up retaining Holl & Kerfoot. Both of whom will likely be elsewhere next season.
Well...he woulda been if they didn't completely galaxy brain it and end up retaining Holl & Kerfoot. Both of whom will likely be elsewhere next season.
Muzzin has to waive his NTC and I don’t see the leafs forcing him to the Marlies. Maybe Muzzin is willing to go back to Los Angeles.
justashadowof
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2020
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Unfortunately in this case it looks like the Leafs may get zero NHL games from any of the components of that trade. At least Hallander was used to get a player that kept Seattle's hands off the rest of the Leafs' roster.
About making these sort of trades, they're better than players dumped for free obviously but not preferable to retaining the player. I thought the team is trying to win not accumulate draft picks to seem clever at asset management. Kapanen is a useful player and better than several of the bottom 6 who dressed for the playoffs. He can hit and take hits without taking penalties.
The idea that these role players are interchangeable from year to year is maddening to this fan. A good part of the unbounded optimism I had for this group of players was that they had developed role type forwards as well as hitting the jackpot on the star forwards. They even had a freaking 3rd line center in house who would have been a 2nd line center on most other NHL teams (and 1st on several others: Kadri).
About making these sort of trades, they're better than players dumped for free obviously but not preferable to retaining the player. I thought the team is trying to win not accumulate draft picks to seem clever at asset management. Kapanen is a useful player and better than several of the bottom 6 who dressed for the playoffs. He can hit and take hits without taking penalties.
The idea that these role players are interchangeable from year to year is maddening to this fan. A good part of the unbounded optimism I had for this group of players was that they had developed role type forwards as well as hitting the jackpot on the star forwards. They even had a freaking 3rd line center in house who would have been a 2nd line center on most other NHL teams (and 1st on several others: Kadri).
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
- Aug 19, 2002
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HamiltonNHL
Resigning Marner == Running it back
- Jan 4, 2012
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How do we get better from being totally incapable from winning a playoff series ?
FTFY.
janesy12
Leafs Nation
Didn't say that, I said they retained them. They could have exposed Holl and kept both McCann and Kerfoot.
ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
- Aug 19, 2002
- 78,330
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Guess I took 'retained' to me they had a choice in the matter regarding Kerfoot.
Not 'could have', should have!
janesy12
Leafs Nation
Well technically they could have had a choice with Kerfoot as well by just exposing Holl. Unfortunately it didn't work out in the least.
PromisedLand
I need more FOOD
Kerfoot is whatever..... keep him/trade him doesn't change a thing
Brodie on the other hand.... we dont have anyone to take his minutes. And I dont wanna see the name Justin Holl ever associated with the Leafs. EVER!
Brodie on the other hand.... we dont have anyone to take his minutes. And I dont wanna see the name Justin Holl ever associated with the Leafs. EVER!
29Potvin
Registered User
And how much would we have had to pay McCann after playing with JT for 1 season? He got 5mil per playing on a bad team. Could imagine his number would be around 6mil. So we would of have McCann for one season and have to trade his rights this offseason and how many teams would be lining up for him at around six? He also had Arb rights before he signed and would not of been the difference in the TB series( 3pts in 12 games in the playoffs)
Mess
Global Moderator
What type of return are you expecting for players like that ?
When I see names like that I immediately think Leafs Return on Investment (ROI) wouldn't even come close their cost of acquisition.
Leafs traded a 1st in 2019 (#22-Dman Tobias Bjornfot who played 70 games for LA this year) + 2 X 2nd round Leaf drafted prospects (Carl Grundstrom, & Sean Durzi) both contributing members of LA playoff roster combining for 4 goals 3 assists and 7 points in their series with Edmonton. So cost to acquire 1 X 1st + 2 X 2nd round pick level prospects.
Now Muzzin has injury history (multiple concussions in same season) missing almost 1/2 the season (played only 47 games) and has a big contract $5.625 mil X 2 years remaining. His next concussion could be his last and with his physical style of play more likely then not. Big Red flag there..
While his contract is front-loaded, there is still $8 mil in actual salary remaining. So Cap hit >> the salary only benefits non competitive teams needed cap $$ to play near the cap floor perhaps. Muzzin also has a limited NTC that list 10 teams submitted he can't be traded to. Now nearly 34 years old Muzzin is not going to poor team to end his career but would want to chase a Cup. So tough contract to unload with limited trade partners due to NTC situation. IMO
Remember Dubas had to give up Leafs 1st along with Patty Marleau to remove a contract with $6.25 mil Cap and $4.25 mil salary, which in real salary only 1/2 of what Muzz has remaining.
So could dumping Muzzin's contract require the Leafs to add the pick/prospect to recover the cap space to re-invest in UFA?
Muzzin seems more like a LTIR candidate on his next injury, and then Leafs using his cap to replace him on the roster. IMO
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justashadowof
Registered User
- Aug 15, 2020
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The Leafs had 3 playoff seasons with Muzzin before any of those traded assets played for L.A. in the playoffs. That's the type of trade it was. That L.A. used those assets well (as well as the assets from the Campbell/Clifford trade) is immaterial. The Leafs whether run by Dubas or someone else, they were fortifying for the playoffs (and making up for the franchise's inability to develop defensemen and goaltenders up to that point).
I don't believe trading Muzzin would require a draft pick after seeing him in the 2022 playoffs. He's worth something especially if you're willing to take something back. But I think it's all moot as Muzzin has a full no trade contract. He's not going anywhere. The current GM doesn't hand out no trades then asks the player to waive.
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