The Jarmo Thread

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

More than half the league makes the playoffs. Making the playoffs alone doesn’t mean a lot. If much at all.

2020 - 2nd seed won
2019 - 4th seed won
2018 - 3rd seed won
2017 - 2nd seed won
2016 - 2nd seed won
2015 - 4th seed won

only one wildcard team has made the cup finals and they lost in 6 games. Including an 8-0 goal differential the last two games.

being a bubble team is a treadmill of mediocrity. You all should want better.

 

[Finner]

What the fk is bubble team? Dictionary didnt help much for this. Yeap i know what bubble is and what team means but combination of those wtf?

 

[koteka]

What the fk is bubble team? Dictionary didnt help much for this. Yeap i know what bubble is and what team means but combination of those wtf?

From the phrase “on the bubble”.

On the bubble - Wikipedia

 

[koteka]

I have enjoyed the past two seasons, which are arguably the best two in franchise history. If we finish 7th and win the first round of the playoff next year, and then lose to the eventual Stanley Cup champions, I’ll enjoy it. But then I am not 100% certain there will be a season.

 

[CalBuckeyeRob]

I have enjoyed the past two seasons, which are arguably the best two in franchise history. If we finish 7th and win the first round of the playoff next year, and then lose to the eventual Stanley Cup champions, I’ll enjoy it. But then I am not 100% certain there will be a season.

Compared to most of the years before that, the last two have been far more successful. But many of us would like to show progress towards a trip to the finals and not just be competitive and capable of an upset. If this was European soccer, it would be a goal of finishing mid-table every year just out of fear of the relegation fight. But in soccer, finances make it essentially impossible for many of the teams to achieve more. The NHL cap and draft gives everyone a chance to get to the finals. Being OK with anything less is just a remnant of too many years of crap teams.

 

[koteka]

Compared to most of the years before that, the last two have been far more successful. But many of us would like to show progress towards a trip to the finals and not just be competitive and capable of an upset. If this was European soccer, it would be a goal of finishing mid-table every year. But in soccer, finances make it essentially impossible for many of the teams to achieve more. The NHL cap and draft gives everyone a chance to get to the finals. Being OK with anything less is just a remnant of too many years of crap teams.

Or maybe I’d be happy next year just to have a season. Making the playoffs is gravy. Winning a round in the playoffs is the cherry on top.

My goal right now would be to not screw up the chance for a run in 21-22 because that season is more likely.

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

Cringe

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Come the f*** on. This isn't even an attempt at an argument; it's hyperbolic bullshit masquerading as an attempt to rationalize "wahhhh I didn't get a SECOND shiny new toy this offseason".

being a bubble team is a treadmill of mediocrity. You all should want better.

Two legitimate takes that couldn't help themselves but demean an alternate take by putting words into people's mouths.

I think it's clear everyone recognizes that 20 years of Jacket-dom have included some pretty hopeless seasons. It is possible to react to that by feeling 'these last two seasons have been pretty good, let's keep it going' or 'these last two seasons have been pretty good but I need to see more'.

By the same token, it's also possible to want to see more and it not have anything to do with 'shiny toy' syndrome just as it's possible to believe the team is in good shape to compete while still 'wanting more'.

 

[Viqsi]

Two legitimate takes that couldn't help themselves but demean an alternate take by putting words into people's mouths.

I think it's clear everyone recognizes that 20 years of Jacket-dom have included some pretty hopeless seasons. It is possible to react to that by feeling 'these last two seasons have been pretty good, let's keep it goin'g or 'these last two seasons have been pretty good but I need to see more'.

By the same token, it's also possible to want to see more and it not have anything to do with 'shiny toy' syndrome just as it's possible to believe the team is in good shape to compete while still 'wanting more'.

Nope, sorry, I'm not willing to accommodate the nonsense right now. By any and every possible objective measure this team is far, far better off than it was twenty or ten or five or one and a half years ago or even two months ago, and yet people are complaining that we've "gotten nothing", that we're "mediocre", that we're "not competitive". That's not a difference in perspective, that's going out of one's way to induce negativity bias, and it deserves to be called out as the objectively wrong biased bullshit it is. And it absolutely 100% is "shiny new toy" syndrome, because it started immediately after it became clear we weren't getting one of the major UFA names, and folks have been citing that directly as reason for their displeasure - they have outright acknowledged the correlation is causal. We got exactly what we needed most all of last year and folks are STILL griping as though nothing of value has occurred.

I'm normally with you on this "folks are overreacting on all sides" stuff, but this is absolutely not one of those cases. Not even slightly. That there's room to improve is undeniable, but acting like that means that no improvement has occurred yet is asinine, and yet that's exactly what folks are doing.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Nope, sorry, I'm not willing to accommodate the nonsense right now. By any and every possible objective measure this team is far, far better off than it was twenty or ten or five or one and a half years ago or even two months ago, and yet people are complaining that we've "gotten nothing", that we're "mediocre", that we're "not competitive". That's not a difference in perspective, that's going out of one's way to induce negativity bias, and it deserves to be called out as the objectively wrong biased bullshit it is. And it absolutely 100% is "shiny new toy" syndrome, because it started immediately after it became clear we weren't getting one of the major UFA names, and folks have been citing that directly as reason for their displeasure - they have outright acknowledged the correlation is causal. We got exactly what we needed most all of last year and folks are STILL griping as though nothing of value has occurred.

I'm normally with you on this "folks are overreacting on all sides" stuff, but this is absolutely not one of those cases. Not even slightly. That there's room to improve is undeniable, but acting like that means that no improvement has occurred yet is asinine, and yet that's exactly what folks are doing.

You are conflating objectivity with your personal opinion. How can one objectively say that losing Anderson, Wennberg, Nutivaara, and Murray and gaining Domi, Koivu, Grigorenko and Pu makes this team better? There is no way to measure that. Are they subjectively (in your mind) better than two months ago? Sure. But objectively implies there is no bias in making that determination. There clearly is in this situation.

 

[Viqsi]

You are conflating objectivity with your personal opinion. How can one objectively say that losing Anderson, Wennberg, Nutivaara, and Murray and gaining Domi, Koivu, Grigorenko and Pu makes this team better?

Because Nutivaara and Murray and Anderson combined played about the same number of minutes as Domi alone last year, and they also combined for half the number of points he scored. In a down year, when he was put in an awkward position and subsequently Habs fans were turning on him. If we were talking about healthy players that got regular time, you might have had a point, but Murray never has been and Nutivaara increasingly isn't, and Anderson could have been if he hadn't made a series of rather poor judgement calls. It's "useful depth we appreciate" versus "a position we've desperately needed filling ever since Dubinsky started to break down half a decade ago". Then Koviu-Wennberg is a wash at this point, and Grigorenko is just a bonus. And who the hell cares about Pu?

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

By any and every possible objective measure this team is far, far better off than it was twenty or ten or five or one and a half years ago or even two months ago,

Disputable and, as regards two months ago, remains to be seen. In any case, it's certainly not objectively true.

and yet people are complaining that we've "gotten nothing", that we're "mediocre", that we're "not competitive".

The most frequent attitude I've seen is that the squad as constituted is a "bubble team" which is what it has been for a few years now. While I believe the 2018-19 team was as good as any in those playoffs (heck, I thought the 2014 team was better than a lot of teams that advanced, had they figured out a way to get past Pittsburgh), the fact is the team has one playoff series win and one play-in series win to show for its existence. That there are worse franchises over the 20 years is true, just as it's true there are better ones. Wanting to be one of those "better ones" does not necessarily equal shiny new toy syndrome. (Which also does not say that SNTS does not exist.)

 

[DarkandStormy]

Because Nutivaara and Murray and Anderson combined played about the same number of minutes as Domi alone last year, and they also combined for half the number of points he scored. In a down year, when he was put in an awkward position and subsequently Habs fans were turning on him. If we were talking about healthy players that got regular time, you might have had a point, but Murray never has been and Nutivaara increasingly isn't, and Anderson could have been if he hadn't made a series of rather poor judgement calls. It's "useful depth we appreciate" versus "a position we've desperately needed filling ever since Dubinsky started to break down half a decade ago". Then Koviu-Wennberg is a wash at this point, and Grigorenko is just a bonus. And who the hell cares about Pu?

Oh I didn't realize the trade was made retroactive to the 2019-2020 season. Anderson is projected to by fully healthy by January 2021, no? Same with Nutivaara? And Murray could very well play his usual 60ish% of games? As is, we're going to see a lot of Scott Harrington this year, it looks like.

 

[Viqsi]

The most frequent attitude I've seen is that the squad as constituted is a "bubble team" which is what it has been for a few years now.

...or, in other words, acting like there's been zero improvement. Which is exactly what I take issue with. It is a perspective in which the Domi trade might as well have never happened because it apparently accomplished absolutely nothing. Which I find utterly asinine.

Seriously. If anyone pushing the "bubble team" idea had at least even acknowledged that move in any way after the start of free agency, I'd be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I can understand being cautious in one's evaluation when changes are made. But literally nobody has. It's as though the trade never happened. It seemingly ceased to exist after the Wennberg buyout - as though thanks to the perception that we gave away so many players for nothing, it's become Accepted Orthodoxy that we also gave away Anderson for nothing.

 

[Viqsi]

Oh I didn't realize the trade was made retroactive to the 2019-2020 season. Anderson is projected to by fully healthy by January 2021, no? Same with Nutivaara? And Murray could very well play his usual 60ish% of games? As is, we're going to see a lot of Scott Harrington this year, it looks like.

We kept seeing Scott Harrington because Peeke wasn't fully developed, and we had two defensemen who kept getting injured. Well, Peeke has had a year to improve, and those two defensemen who keep getting injured are the ones we traded away. And oh, by the way, we have an actual #2C now that can actually score instead of having Jenner or Wennberg kill time 'till PLD's next shift.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

...or, in other words, acting like there's been zero improvement. Which is exactly what I take issue with. It is a perspective in which the Domi trade might as well have never happened because it apparently accomplished absolutely nothing. Which I find utterly asinine.

Seriously. If anyone pushing the "bubble team" idea had at least even acknowledged that move in any way after the start of free agency, I'd be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I can understand being cautious in one's evaluation when changes are made. But literally nobody has. It's as though the trade never happened. It seemingly ceased to exist after the Wennberg buyout - as though thanks to the perception that we gave away so many players for nothing, it's become Accepted Orthodoxy that we also gave away Anderson for nothing.

It seems likely or at least possible that it will take more than "not zero improvement" to become not a bubble team. The bubble (probably, at this point, it's all predictions) includes anywhere from 5-9 teams and, even allowing for Domi, it's not clear that the Jackets are elevated out of it.

It's possible to be better and still a bubble team. Indeed, in my opinion, that's what has happened. I will add here that my enthusiasm over the improvement Domi brings is muted just a touch by the loss of depth on defense, irrespective of games played, although I feel it's still an overall improvement.

 

[Viqsi]

It seems likely or at least possible that it will take more than "not zero improvement" to become not a bubble team. The bubble (probably, at this point, it's all predictions) includes anywhere from 5-9 teams and, even allowing for Domi, it's not clear that the Jackets are elevated out of it.

It's possible to be better and still a bubble team. Indeed, in my opinion, that's what has happened. I will add here that my enthusiasm over the improvement Domi brings is muted just a touch by the loss of depth on defense, irrespective of games played, although I feel it's still an overall improvement.

That's fair; I'm in much the same boat - I was bouncing-off-the-walls happy that we pulled off that trade and then whiplashed right back to "WTAF" with the defense drops. I am just sick of this constant pattern of folks getting pissy towards anyone who dares to be excited for the near future 'cause there isn't a Big New Name To Brag About.

And, again, I'd be willing to give the "better but still a bubble team" benefit of the doubt towards folks if they had bothered to make any acknowledgement whatsoever of the "better" part. You're the first one arguing that we're possibly still a bubble team that has.

 

[JacketsDavid]

I think on paper we are better.
But we are not deeper, the strength of the team was the d-corps depth and that is now average.
Just my opinion but I think to be better than a bubble teams means you can look at the team and say "yeah no doubt top 3 team in that division". I don't think we are there yet. If you look at Metro standsings Caps and Flyers were the best, then Pittsburgh. Then a pretty big gap to Caolina, CBJ, Islanders and even the Rangers. I personally don't think we have elevated to top 3 in the Metro.

 

[Monstershockey]

So what if they are a bubble team. The goal of the regular season is to get to the playoffs. Getting through the playoffs is a whole different animal.

The flipside of a bubble team would be Washington. They won their division 10 times in the last 15 years and got past the 2nd round once. Yeah, they got a cup, but with the talent they had, plus having arguably the best goal scorer of this era, the fact that they got past the 2nd round once shows just how hard it is to win it all.

To judge any of the moves made so far, good or bad, before any games have been played, is ludicrous. Let it play out.

 

[Viqsi]

I think on paper we are better.
But we are not deeper, the strength of the team was the d-corps depth and that is now average.
Just my opinion but I think to be better than a bubble teams means you can look at the team and say "yeah no doubt top 3 team in that division". I don't think we are there yet. If you look at Metro standsings Caps and Flyers were the best, then Pittsburgh. Then a pretty big gap to Caolina, CBJ, Islanders and even the Rangers. I personally don't think we have elevated to top 3 in the Metro.

I think we're about level with Philadelphia at this point, but I don't know if that makes us top-3 at the moment. I think we're on the bubble for top-3 status, not for a playoffs position.

 

[DarkandStormy]

And, again, I'd be willing to give the "better but still a bubble team" benefit of the doubt towards folks if they had bothered to make any acknowledgement whatsoever of the "better" part. You're the first one arguing that we're possibly still a bubble team that has.

"As long as people agree with my assessment of the team I won't call them crazy" is not really a rational argument.

Anyway, the one poster who seems to have caused you consternation had this to say about the Domi trade:
Confirmed Trade: - [MTL/CBJ] Josh Anderson for Max Domi and 2020 3rd round pick

Nice job Jarmo. Needed help up the middle and he fits with the young group. The pick is a bonus. A fresh start all around for both.

 

[Monk]

So what if they are a bubble team. The goal of the regular season is to get to the playoffs. Getting through the playoffs is a whole different animal.

The flipside of a bubble team would be Washington. They won their division 10 times in the last 15 years and got past the 2nd round once. Yeah, they got a cup, but with the talent they had, plus having arguably the best goal scorer of this era, the fact that they got past the 2nd round once shows just how hard it is to win it all.

To judge any of the moves made so far, good or bad, before any games have been played, is ludicrous. Let it play out.

I think the problem is a lot of people attribute "bubble team" to being a bad thing, largely because some posters seem to be fairly overtly implying that being a "bubble team" is a bad thing.

Your point is well taken. 2/3+ of the teams in the NHL are a "bubble team."

 

[DarkandStormy]

NHL offseason by the numbers: Which teams have improved the most (and least)?

In his latest column, Dom Luszczyszyn of The Athletic says his model has CBJ with the fifth-worst offseason in the league to this point, just ahead of the Islanders and Lightning and behind the Sharks and Leafs:

Columbus Blue Jackets

Wins Added: -1.6 wins

Salary Added: -$8.3 million

In: Max Domi, Mikko Koivu

Out: Josh Anderson, Ryan Murray, Markus Nutivaara, Alex Wennberg

The Blue Jackets did an excellent job clearing cap space and did … very little with it. Trading Ryan Murray and Markus Nutivaara weakens a deep defence corps and though the Blue Jackets have internal solutions, the presence of those two will still be missed. They did improve at forward swapping Josh Anderson for Max Domi and signing Mikko Koivu to replace Alex Wennberg but it’s not enough to overlook the losses on the back end.

So there's at least one person out there saying the offseason has been a net negative for the Blue Jackets.

 

[Viqsi]

"As long as people agree with my assessment of the team I won't call them crazy" is not really a rational argument.

If you disagree with me that the weather looks okay because the clouds aren't storm clouds, that's one thing. If you disagree with me that there are clouds in the sky at all, then I believe I am perfectly justified in calling you crazy.

Anyway, the one poster who seems to have caused you consternation had this to say about the Domi trade:
Confirmed Trade: - [MTL/CBJ] Josh Anderson for Max Domi and 2020 3rd round pick

If you look carefully, you'll see that I was talking about acknowledgements of the trade after free agency started. Instead of looking at the team as a whole, folks are dwelling on "we didn't get a free agency win" and acting like everything is terrible. That's what I take umbrage with.

 

[DarkandStormy]

If you disagree with me that the weather looks okay because the clouds aren't storm clouds, that's one thing. If you disagree with me that there are clouds in the sky at all, then I believe I am perfectly justified in calling you crazy.

Call me crazy (lol) but I don't think mods should be calling other members here crazy simply because they might believe the team didn't get better from two months ago.