The Jagr/Mario overlap

[VanIslander]

Gretzky & Lemieux were gods and Jagr the demi-god.

This was the word in sports bars in the mid-1990s (my grad school uni days).

Then Hasek wtf'd up us all.

Everyone else was chopped liver: worthy of a meal, but doesn't last long in the open air.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It wasn’t so easy, lots of hooking, clutching and grabbing, defense first systems, big emphasis on size over skill, high percentage of goals scored off powerplay. Generational superstar types will come and go but only influence the overall league so much no matter the extent they dominate the zeitgeist. You can generally expect the overall talent levels in the league to steadily rise over time outside of rapid expansion. Yet it may not always be the type of “talent” that is viewed as personally appealing to audiences.

 

[MadLuke]

Also, very few young players were competing for top scoring finishes during 96-97 to 02-03 compared to the previous years or the following years. This shows the weakness of the talent entering the league in those years.

From 92-93 through 95-96, top 10 scorers - 17 of the 40 spots (43%) went to players under 25. (Turgeon, Selanne, Mogilny, Recchi, Fedorov, Roenick, Bure, Shanahan, Jagr, Lindros, Zhamnov, Renberg, Forsberg, Kariya).

I think it is a mix, soviet collapse and so on causing some drop, but also the aging generation being possibly the best generation of players.

In 2000 the 35-40 years old were particularly strong but:

Oates-Francis-Yzerman-Reechi-Messier-Bourque-Roy-Hasek-Lemieux-Hull and co, were particularly good.

What is the argument that it got "worse" in the late '90s to the early '00s?

It would be a lot around how well old Sakic-Sundin-etc.... look versus their young version.

Mark Reechi, finished third in the scoring race in 2000:

1.	Jaromír Jágr • PIT	96
2.	Pavel Bure* • FLA	94
3.	Mark Recchi* • PHI	91
4.	Paul Kariya* • MDA	86
5.	Teemu Selänne* • MDA	85

Was he better having a better season than in 92-93 ?

.	Mario Lemieux* • PIT	160
2.	Pat LaFontaine* • BUF	148
3.	Adam Oates* • BOS	142
4.	Steve Yzerman* • DET	137
5.	Teemu Selänne* • WIN	132
	Pierre Turgeon* • NYI	132
7.	Doug Gilmour* • TOR	127
	Alexander Mogilny • BUF	127
9.	Luc Robitaille* • LAK	125
10.	Mark Recchi* • PHI	123

when he finished 10 ? Maybe Leclair-55 Lindros game, but maybe everyone above him in 93 finished above him in 2000.

It was a lot of top player missing game or slowed down by injury, not just less talent (if it was), Forsberg-Sakic-Lindros-Kariya-Selanne could have been ahead, obviously Mario if he play).

Was 1993 Sundin playing with the high octane nordiques offense significantly less a scorer than late 90s-00s Sundin or just playing against an higher field ? What peak Roenick look like if he does it from 01-04 instead of 91-94 when he was just one of many (91-94, Gretzky-Oates-Recchi-Hull-Yzerman had more points, Hull-Robitaille had more goals, who would have in 01-04 ?) .

 

[daver]

It would be a lot around how well old Sakic-Sundin-etc.... look versus their young version.

Mark Reechi, finished third in the scoring race in 2000:

1.	Jaromír Jágr • PIT	96
2.	Pavel Bure* • FLA	94
3.	Mark Recchi* • PHI	91
4.	Paul Kariya* • MDA	86
5.	Teemu Selänne* • MDA	85

Was he better having a better season than in 92-93 ?

.	Mario Lemieux* • PIT	160
2.	Pat LaFontaine* • BUF	148
3.	Adam Oates* • BOS	142
4.	Steve Yzerman* • DET	137
5.	Teemu Selänne* • WIN	132
	Pierre Turgeon* • NYI	132
7.	Doug Gilmour* • TOR	127
	Alexander Mogilny • BUF	127
9.	Luc Robitaille* • LAK	125
10.	Mark Recchi* • PHI	123

when he finished 10 ? Maybe Leclair-55 Lindros game, but maybe everyone above him in 93 finished above him in 2000.

It was a lot of top player missing game or slowed down by injury, not just less talent (if it was), Forsberg-Sakic-Lindros-Kariya-Selanne could have been ahead, obviously Mario if he play).

Was 1993 Sundin playing with the high octane nordiques offense significantly less a scorer than late 90s-00s Sundin or just playing against an higher field ? What peak Roenick look like if he does it from 01-04 instead of 91-94 when he was just one of many (91-94, Gretzky-Oates-Recchi-Hull-Yzerman had more points, Hull-Robitaille had more goals, who would have in 01-04 ?) .

You, and the other poster, are throwing out, one or two names/stats, to draw a conclusion. I threw out 130 pieces of stats e.g. the Top Ten scorers each season over a 13 year period that debunks narrative that older stars were dominating younger stars during the DPE.

As for Recchi, he was 31 years old and had the 6th best PPG in 00/01. He could have easily been out of the Top Ten that year because there a lot of parity. To paint him as the 3rd best scorer that year is pretty misleading.

A 30 year Claude Giroux was 2nd in 17/18 against prime MacKinnon, Kucherov/Draisaitl.

Lower tier players jumping up in any year, even after what you guess is their prime, is not a huge indicator of anything.