The Identity (Politics) of Leaf Fans (Not actual politics)

[Ianturnedbull]

I am pretty sure I will have no positive impact here and was going to post this in another thread that triggered this thought for me. I decided that would have hijacked the other thread, so I am starting this fresh. I really don't want this to be about Dubas, Treliving and their respective moves. There are plenty of threads for that, I am more interested in discussing the fans that are polarized and seemingly obsessed by the topic. I am hopeful this can be done in a productive way.

We really have to let the Dubas stuff go. For the record, I liked Dubas, but was happy he was let go. I didn't like Tre as the next guy, and now I am starting to come around.

Clearly a case can be made that Dubas built a strong and solid hockey team. Yes, both of those elements are defensible. He BUILT the team and it was/is SOLID and STRONG. A case can also be made that his teams fell short of their potential.

Debating this stuff and what could have been is fine with me. I like the discussion, it's what fans do. We are almost two years out now and the debate continues to be as much about the person as the product he produced.

It all feels a bit too Republican/Democrat to me. The identity politics of some (many) on here cause some people to feel they have to disagree with and hate on everything Dubas did, and others defend everything he did and make excuses. Neither end of the spectrum is true, it never is. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't terrible. We were one of the best teams in the NHL under him, we have the longest streak of playoff appearances, and we haven't had the playoff success we feel we should have by now.

Does anyone want to weigh on this? Do the two ends of the spectrum make this place spicy or exhausting for you? Should we try to find more common ground and take a more balanced view or are the extremes just a fact of life in every fandom? Perhaps exacerbated in our massive and passionate one?

I associate Dubas fans (the ones that chose a hockey identity based on his managerial style) with mental illness.

We don't have to let it go. Anyone and everyone that defended and continues to defend his tenure as GM deserves to be ridiculed forever and is a big reason why this team will continue to fail going forward.

Some of You Folks acted and continue to act like he was God's gift to hockey. When he bastardized the game. That is unforgivable.

He had no effect on "the game".

 

[rumman]

My take
Posters are talking good and bad about Dubas my opinion he failed we didn’t win a cup and I don’t care what he is doing now. He is gone no looking back only ahead

Same goes for posters who worry about a player we trade playing good for another team. What he does with another team does not matter to me good or bad. He is not a leaf anymore and if he finds success somewhere else then good for him.

I only care about the team we have now and hope they can be successful. Looking back doesn’t do any good because no matter how much you piss and Moan you can’t change the past.

Look ahead not behind

Go leafs

I’d argue past failures should not be forgotten, one should learn from their mistakes……..

 

[ULF_55]

Looks like a decent team.

Recovered from the disaster Burke created.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

He had no effect on "the game".

You're way to horny to defend the phony. I want you to reread the sentence. Maybe try going to the Leafs game so you can get some peace and quiet to concentrate because post-Dubas nobody makes a peep at the game.

 

[rumman]

I associate Dubas fans (the ones that chose a hockey identity based on his managerial style) with mental illness.


He had no effect on "the game".

He signed, paid players that under his tenure didn’t win shit, both him and Shanahan are responsible for allowing failure to be acceptable……..

 

[Aashir Mallik]

Both “sides” of dubas are on completely different ends who having differing opinions on the key things he did. Most people either thought be sucked, or was amazing. There is a little middle ground, but majority doesn’t fall here. Personally, I fall closer to the thinking of he wasn’t good, but not completely hating him, but I also wasn’t a fan of the team during Matthews and nylanders contract negotiations, only during marners so whilst I don’t like their contracts at all, I don’t really know the intricate details that others do. (Maybe this is why I like Marner the least lol, I saw his contract negotiations play out)

Some defend his signings of the core 4 and defend the players themselves no matter what, whereas some completely hate the signings, saying it’s the reason the team is failing, and believe the players aren’t as good as we think. His fans think his drafting was elite, but his haters think it’s below mediocre. Some liked how he signed free agents, others think he signs bad contracts and finds ways to move them using draft capital. Ditto for trades. Both sides have very little to no common ground on what dubas did right or wrong.

I don’t really care either way, we have treliving right now and he’s been about as successful as dubas was, not a high bar but it’s a bar that the toilet bowl teams of the Atlantic (sens, sabres, wings) would die for. I try not to really care or think about dubas unless he is brought up in the some thread, usually where someone is defending something he did or putting treliving down by using dubas. I find this BS because dubas was by no means a good gm, and with so much failure attached to his brand, it doesn’t make sense to me to go out of your way to defend him

 

[keonsbitterness]

We don't have to let it go. Anyone and everyone that defended and continues to defend his tenure as GM deserves to be ridiculed forever and is a big reason why this team will continue to fail going forward.

Some of You Folks acted and continue to act like he was God's gift to hockey. When he bastardized the game. That is unforgivable.

I don't get the God or bastard part. He took a playoff team that lost in the 1st round and turned it into a playoff team that (usually) lost in the 1st round.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

..... it all feels a bit too Republican/Democrat to me. The identity politics

Honestly, what does Dubas have to do with identity politics / Rep/Demo ? I honestly have no idea. Did you mean politics and opinions are both POLARIZED ?

Clearly a case can be made that Dubas built a strong and solid hockey team.

<opinion> no info provided </opinion>

In your opinion, what were Dubas three best moves?

right back at you.

Title: The Identity (Politics) of Leaf Fans​

is the purpose of this title to express the ...

Exaggerated Polarized opinions of Dubas ?

otherwise you are conflating unrelated topics, NOT in a good way (using your words)

 

[Ianturnedbull]

He signed, paid players that under his tenure didn’t win shit, both him and Shanahan are responsible for allowing failure to be acceptable……..

He said "the game". Should I interpret that as the team?

You're way to horny to defend the phony. I want you to reread the sentence. Maybe try going to the Leafs game so you can get some peace and quiet to concentrate because post-Dubas nobody makes a peep at the game.

I've never defended Dubas in my life.

 

[Voodoo Child]

 

[All Mod Cons]

We don't have to let it go. Anyone and everyone that defended and continues to defend his tenure as GM deserves to be ridiculed forever and is a big reason why this team will continue to fail going forward.

Some of You Folks acted and continue to act like he was God's gift to hockey. When he bastardized the game. That is unforgivable.

Yeah, the blaming Mike, Lou, weather and taxes lasted the whole of Kyle's tenure. Apparently it's one rule for Kyle and another for everyone else.

 

[rumman]

I think you are behind the times and I must be more woke than you. I know of 325.5 gender identities. You'll need to up your game to be in the same woke conversation as me. As proven by my higher number than yours. 325.5 > 14. Sorry / Not sorry.

sad, but true............

Yeah, the blaming Mike, Lou, weather and taxes lasted the whole of Kyle's tenure. Apparently it's one rule for Kyle and another for everyone else.

some throw it much better than they catch it................

 

[Guided by Veseys]

This is nothing compared to the Kadri vs Frattin debates. Now those were the days of ferocious political zealotry.

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

I like old-time hockey—fast, violent, and high-scoring.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I like old-time hockey—fast, violent, and high-scoring.

sorry bro

 

[TakeTheBody]

I was okay with Dubas until he left the way he did. Now? Screw Dubas. I do hope his family is well.

 

[Commander Clueless]

The D-word should be banned on the Leafs forum.

 

[slozo]

I am pretty sure I will have no positive impact here and was going to post this in another thread that triggered this thought for me. I decided that would have hijacked the other thread, so I am starting this fresh. I really don't want this to be about Dubas, Treliving and their respective moves. There are plenty of threads for that, I am more interested in discussing the fans that are polarized and seemingly obsessed by the topic. I am hopeful this can be done in a productive way.

We really have to let the Dubas stuff go. For the record, I liked Dubas, but was happy he was let go. I didn't like Tre as the next guy, and now I am starting to come around.

Clearly a case can be made that Dubas built a strong and solid hockey team. Yes, both of those elements are defensible. He BUILT the team and it was/is SOLID and STRONG. A case can also be made that his teams fell short of their potential.

Debating this stuff and what could have been is fine with me. I like the discussion, it's what fans do. We are almost two years out now and the debate continues to be as much about the person as the product he produced.

It all feels a bit too Republican/Democrat to me. The identity politics of some (many) on here cause some people to feel they have to disagree with and hate on everything Dubas did, and others defend everything he did and make excuses. Neither end of the spectrum is true, it never is. He wasn't perfect and he wasn't terrible. We were one of the best teams in the NHL under him, we have the longest streak of playoff appearances, and we haven't had the playoff success we feel we should have by now.

Does anyone want to weigh on this? Do the two ends of the spectrum make this place spicy or exhausting for you? Should we try to find more common ground and take a more balanced view or are the extremes just a fact of life in every fandom? Perhaps exacerbated in our massive and passionate one?

Yeah, I think there are a minutiae of fans who attach themselves to certain personnel or who like to villify and attack some current or former personnel as if it's their job . . . but that's mostly an internet niche thing. Do a lot of people in general now attach their opinions with themselves in a personal way, so that if you attack their point they feel personally attacked? Absolutely, see it all the time, every day, all over this site and all others and in real life as well.

But the majority of fans I would say take a more simplistic view and base anything on success or failure of the team in various aspects...we are fans after all, and easily forgive and forget many times.

Liked your points though about there being lots of in between / grey area though.

 

[rumman]

I was okay with Dubas until he left the way he did. Now? Screw Dubas. I do hope his family is well.

There fine when they’re not being held as pawns in a contract play…………

 

[rumman]

Yeah, I think there are a minutiae of fans who attach themselves to certain personnel or who like to villify and attack some current or former personnel as if it's their job . . . but that's mostly an internet niche thing. Do a lot of people in general now attach their opinions with themselves in a personal way, so that if you attack their point they feel personally attacked? Absolutely, see it all the time, every day, all over this site and all others and in real life as well.

But the majority of fans I would say take a more simplistic view and base anything on success or failure of the team in various aspects...we are fans after all, and easily forgive and forget many times.

Liked your points though about there being lots of in between / grey area though.

If asked what I think of Dubas’ tenure I’d say he was a train wreck, if someone said they thought he did a good job I’d say you don’t know shit about hockey. I’d do this to anyone in person or online, it makes no difference to me…………

 

[HamiltonNHL]

ultimately the biggest mistake of Dubas was rushing the rebuild with acquired UFA John Tavares.
it was his first decision.

I didn't support it. In my mind, you don't add finishing pieces until you know what you have.

Something that is obvious now, but I didn't appreciate at the time is .... YOU NEED to lock up the core before adding expensive pieces.

 

[notdoneyet]

I’d argue past failures should not be forgotten, one should learn from their mistakes……..

My take
If you are a true and I mean a true leaf fan you remember all our past failures and they will never be forgotten

I’m think for the first time in years I’m optimistic that things are heading in the right direction

 

[conFABulator]

Here’s the thing. I remember playing on the floor in front of the TV when Leafs won the cup. Didn’t know much but I knew it was a big deal by the reactions of the adults in the room.

I lived through the Ballard era, 2 decades of hopelessness, I reveled in the Stavros/Fletcher era , after 2 decades it seemed like a dam had burst.

Now to finally have another overall #1 franchise pick, the potential is intoxicating and yet a nightmare that again, I am being denied the elation those adults in the room got to experience so many years ago.

End of sob story. Now go out and win a cup boys.

You have a few years on me. I was born five years after the last cup. It has been a long 52 years as a Leafs fan.

This is not a nightmare for me. It's the time of greatest hope and it has had a hurdle or two. I do note that most recent up winners, I believe Vegas is the exception, had a fairly long climb from build up to cup hoisting.

McKinnon was 28 when he won his first cup, Stamkos was 30, Barkov was 29, Pietrangelo was 29, and Ovechkin was 33. Matthews just turned 27.

The process was long for all of those teams and they went through GMs and coaches just like we have. People seem to give Yzerman credit for what he built in Tampa even though they didn't win a cup until after he was gone.

A nightmare would be to feel we are this close and then to not get there. Those that talk about blowing it up are out to lunch.

For those that say getting our team to this point and level was easy because we were bad for so long it was inevitable; I say take a look at what teams were the worst in the NHL from 2011 to 2018 (When Dubas took over) and you will see Buffalo, Arizona, Edmonton, Toronto, Carolina, and Colorado. That's one cup, a couple of perennial losers, and two teams with frustration equal to the Leafs.

I cannot but any definition accept that we are terrible or even have missed our window. I am glad we have a new CEO, GM, Coach and Captain. I think we are in better position than most teams and I think the previous GM gets some credit for that.

 

[conFABulator]

Six paragraphs of letting us know your a closet Dubas fanboy without saying your a Dubas fanboy. People love him, people hate him, personally I’m thankful we’re all entitled to our opinions, and find nothing polarizing about having differing opinions. You do you and let others do likewise, this place would suck if it was a echo chamber of like minded opinions imo...

You are much more efficient than me, it only took you a half a sentence to let us know you are a Dubas hater.

Go ahead and deny it, but re-read my post and tell me what about it makes me a so-called "Dubas fanboy"? Not hating him? Saying he led us to disappointment and missed expectations? I said those exact things in the post you responded to. I also said I agreed with letting him go.

Anyone who doesn't hate him is a "fanboy"? Do you see my parallel to the US and the Democrat/Republican identity politics now?

What makes me a "fanboy" exactly?

ultimately the biggest mistake of Dubas was rushing the rebuild with acquired UFA John Tavares.
it was his first decision.

I didn't support it. In my mind, you don't add finishing pieces until you know what you have.

Something that is obvious now, but I didn't appreciate at the time is .... YOU NEED to lock up the core before adding expensive pieces.

I got on board with the JT signing, what choice did we have? I remember feeling like it was a bit early also.

I do think that strategy could have played out differently if the cap hadn't gone Covid-flat.

 

[rumman]

You are much more efficient than me, it only took you a half a sentence to let us know you are a Dubas hater.

Go ahead and deny it, but re-read my post and tell me what about it makes me a so-called "Dubas fanboy"? Not hating him? Saying he led us to disappointment and missed expectations? I said those exact things in the post you responded to. I also said I agreed with letting him go.

Anyone who doesn't hate him is a "fanboy"? Do you see my parallel to the US and the Democrat/Republican identity politics now?

What makes me a "fanboy" exactly?


I got on board with the JT signing, what choice did we have? I remember feeling like it was a bit early also.

I do think that strategy could have played out differently if the cap hadn't gone Covid-flat.

For the record I don’t hate Dubas, I hate everything he did here, it’s not personal, it’s businss, they’re in the business of winning, he hasn’t done that in the NHL, and he won’t in Pittsburgh either………