The growing disrespect of Mike Bossy

[Video Nasty]

I’ve noticed over the past couple of years, particularly with the ascent of Ovechkin up the goal scoring charts, that Bossy seems to get disrespected quite a bit on these boards.

It’s something I never came across but lately, I’ve noticed passing comments here and there about how so and so is better than Bossy, Bossy is not a top 5 goal scorer, I wouldn’t take Bossy, he’s overrated and so on.

Very vague, almost devoid of any substance type comments. Also seems like it has gained some traction with others and just gets parroted around in some sort of groupthink mindset.

Simple question, why?

 

[TheKrebsCycle]

Probably due to the length of his career and thus pure counting stats he gets underrated. Incredible scorer. One of the greats no doubt.

 

[saluki]

I've never noticed that, at least in the circles where I follow hockey.

Bossy was a boss.

 

[libertarian]

I’ve noticed over the past couple of years, particularly with the ascent of Ovechkin up the goal scoring charts, that Bossy seems to get disrespected quite a bit on these boards.

It’s something I never came across but lately, I’ve noticed passing comments here and there about how so and so is better than Bossy, Bossy is not a top 5 goal scorer, I wouldn’t take Bossy, he’s overrated and so on.

Very vague, almost devoid of any substance type comments. Also seems like it has gained some traction with others and just gets parroted around in some sort of groupthink mindset.

Simple question, why?

Great post. Most people that think Bossy was over rated never saw him play when he was in his prime. Bossy was the OV of his time but he was unlucky to play in the Gretzky/Lemieux era where they destroyed all scoring records. As far as I'm concern Bossy is one of the top 5 scorers of all time.

 

[Le Grec]

I can't imagine those who watched Bossy play don't give him proper respect.
But if all you know of him is old highlights, it's hard to appreciate his talent.
Different game, different time...

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Rockets:
Ovechkin/Bobby Hull: 7
Esposito: 6
Gretzky/Howe/Richard: 5
Lemieux/Brett Hull: 3
Bossy: 2

GPG wins:
Ovechkin/Bobby Hull: 8
Lemieux: 6
Esposito/Richard: 5
Gretzky/Howe/Brett Hull: 3
Bossy: 1

Combined:
Ovechkin/Bobby Hull: 15
Esposito: 11
Richard: 10
Lemieux: 9
Gretzky/Howe: 8
Brett Hull: 6
Bossy: 3

Bossy sticks out like a sore thumb. He is a top 10 scorer all time, but a clear #2 of his era behind Gretzky. The problem is when people try to "argue" that the #2 of his era is the GOAT. It's like if someone tries to argue that Stamkos > OV. We all know Stamkos is great and he won his rockets, but OV is clearly better proven by peak and prime. Just like Gretzky was clearly better than Bossy.

Basically if anyone says Bossy is the GOAT, that's overrating him. If they say he's not top 10, that's really underrating him.

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Bossy wasnt even better than gretzky of his era.

 

[Panthera]

Who disrespects Bossy? If anything he gets overrated a bit by people who look at his GPG number and fanboy over it without realizing that retiring early inflates that stat a lot and he'd look a lot more "normal" otherwise. He's one of those weird players where a lot of people seem like they'd consider him a lesser player if he had...played more seasons of quality hockey...simply because it would be lower quality than the (very high) standard he set in his 20s.

 

[Il Stugotz]

Bossy and Jagr are the only two wingers to ever have more than 80 assists in a single season, with Kucherov soon to join them. I think Bossy’s whole career needs a critical reappraisal.

 

[deckercky]

Bossy led the league in goal scoring twice.

He also had one year where he was second behind Gretzky, one year where he was second behind Kurri, and one year where he was third behind Gretzky and Kurri. So that theoretical change boosts him to 5 scoring titles.

Even with those adjustments, he's behind Ovechkin and Hull who led the league 7 times each, and he's behind Gretzky who destroyed him in goal scoring head to head. I see how someone could argue he's in a group with Howe and Richard, but disagree with that classification. If you're making 'what if' adjustments, you have to rank Lemieux ahead of him.

He's clearly one of the top 10 goal scorers all time, but gets put in the argument for best of all time for some reason when he's clearly behind the players who are worthy of that discussion.

 

[DingerMcSlapshot]

Bossy was great . In fact, I thought Jari Kurri was a poor man's Mike Bossy. Chronic injuries hampered him a lot in his career. No way the length of his career inflated his stats. Bossy was the purest goal scoring machine of all time. Mario the greatest player of all time. My 2 cents.

 

[Plural]

Jeesus...

People are not disrespecting him. Outside of some moronic few, nobody is saying they wouldn't take him or anything like that. Him being a top-5 scorer is certainly a debatable opinion. Thinking he's not top-5 is not disrespecting him.

 

[Video Nasty]

Rockets:
Ovechkin/Hull: 7
Gretzky/Howe/Richard: 5
Lemieux: 3
Bossy: 2

GPG wins:
Ovechkin/Hull: 8
Lemieux: 6
Richard: 5
Gretzky/Howe: 3
Bossy: 1

Combined:
Ovechkin/Hull: 15
Richard: 10
Lemieux: 9
Gretzky/Howe: 8
Bossy: 3

Bossy sticks out like a sore thumb. He is a top 10 scorer all time, but a clear #2 of his era behind Gretzky. The problem is when people try to "argue" that the #2 of his era is the GOAT. It's like if someone tries to argue that Stamkos > OV. We all know Stamkos is great and he won his rockets, but OV is clearly better proven by peak and prime. Just like Gretzky was clearly better than Bossy.

Basically if anyone says Bossy is the GOAT, that's overrating him. If they say he's not top 10, that's really underrating him.

This is an example of the same argument I’ve been seeing. Bossy is penalized because he is being compared to Gretzky and Lemieux (you know, two of the top 4 players ever). Ovechkin’s trophy would be completely empty if he had to beat out those two players season after season. Give Bossy a break. He has the highest ppg in history, outside those two. The guy had 9 straight 50 goal seasons (five 60 goal campaigns!) before bowing out due to a bad back and knees. It took him less than 5 shots to pot a goal for his entire career. This guy is so incredible and I just don’t get why Ovechkin is given extra credit for having no competition for his Rockets while Bossy is dumped on because he had to compete with The Great One, Super Mario and a slew of other legends.

Bossy is an all time great player, let alone goal scorer. To compare Stamkos in any way is simply laughable and really shows how weak Ovechkin’s competition is.

 

[Senor Catface]

His goal scoring in the playoffs was unreal, doesn't matter what era. In his absolute playoff peak, he got 52 goals in 56 games over 3 years.

2nd highest goals per game in the playoffs. 6th highest points per game in the playoffs.

 

[AD1066]

My criticism of Bossy in the past has been in response to people calling him the greatest scorer of all time. I don't think he has much of a case, because it seems to rest on an inflated GPG due to early retirement, and a streak of 50-goal seasons in the 1980s, which really isn't the equivalent of doing so today.

The most goals he ever scored in a season were 68, and Gretzky scored 92 the very following season. That's not a high peak, considering guys like Nichols and Kurri scored 70 and 71 in the same era. And today, a rough adjustment to league-wide scoring levels gives Ovechkin about five or six seasons better than Bossy's second best. I'm aware adjusted stats aren't perfect, but when the results are statistically significant, I think you can arrive at a fair approximation of how things stand.

I think considering all factors-- absolute peak, times leading the league in goals or GPG, scoring levels over time, Gretzky's output in the same era-- he's closer to 5th-6th all time than he is to GOAT status. Greztky, Hull, Lemieux, Ovechkin are all ahead in my book, and I haven't done enough research on someone like Richard.

 

[Video Nasty]

Who disrespects Bossy? If anything he gets overrated a bit by people who look at his GPG number and fanboy over it without realizing that retiring early inflates that stat a lot and he'd look a lot more "normal" otherwise. He's one of those weird players where a lot of people seem like they'd consider him a lesser player if he had...played more seasons of quality hockey...simply because it would be lower quality than the (very high) standard he set in his 20s.

I agree that more seasons would see a decline in numbers (though most around here pretend it won’t happen with Crosby’s PPG or that Ovechkin will keep potting 50 until he’s 40).

But don’t forget, he was fifth quickest to 400 points. Fourth quickest to 500 and 600. Then only behind Gretzky and Lemieux from 700 points all the way through 1100 points and then retirement.

I’m pretty confident with a better back and knees, this guy would still have no lower than the 4th highest ppg all time and 800 regular season goals.

 

[Daximus]

Bossy was no doubt an absolute force in goal scoring but he entered the league at 21 and retired at 30. So he had exactly 9 years of basically prime scoring to his resume. You absolutely undoubtedly have to factor that into consideration.

Bossy's 9 years from 21-30 - 752 games played - 573 goals scored - 0.76 goals per game

Now take some other prime scorers stats from those same years.

Brett Hull - 8 years (entered league at 22) - 588 games played - 442 goals scored - 0.75 goals per game
Ovi - 758 games played - 473 goals scored - 0.62 goals per game

There are a lot of other guys like Iggy, Bure, Yzerman, etc. close to the same tier of goal scoring prime. They just didn't do it during one of the highest scoring eras in league history. Which I also think plays a factor.

Bossy's prime for goal scoring is easily 3rd all time, behind Gretz and Lemieux. But when you start to factor in eras I think it drops. Bossy was a force but lets not pretend that starting at 21 and ending at 30 and playing during the highest scoring era isn't affecting his legacy. He basically has no early years or over 30 years on his resume to drag his numbers down.

 

[AD1066]

I agree that more seasons would see a decline in numbers (though most around here pretend it won’t happen with Crosby’s PPG or that Ovechkin will keep potting 50 until he’s 40).

But don’t forget, he was fifth quickest to 400 points. Fourth quickest to 500 and 600. Then only behind Gretzky and Lemieux from 700 points all the way through 1100 points and then retirement.

I’m pretty confident with a better back and knees, this guy would still have no lower than the 4th highest ppg all time and 800 regular season goals.

It's not a coincidence that of the top-20 highest scoring players of all-time, 12 of them were born in the same ten year window. Bossy played in the best possible time for a forward to play, on a dynasty that couldn't exist today, and then retired before his game naturally declined and league-wide scoring also fell.

 

[Artorius Horus T]

Mike Bossy > everyone else (goal scoring ability)
Ovie is relatively trash compared to Bossy. (you can throw your Ovie awards, don't care)

Without Bossy's injury, he would of scored in the range of 900-1000 career goals in the NHL.
When he was healthy Mike scored 53,69,51,68,64,60,51,58,61 goals in just 689 games, respectively.

Bossy is and always will be the greatest goal scorer ever to play ice hockey,
but...so many seems to forget his ability to pass the puck as well,
not to mention his high hockey IQ.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

This is an example of the same argument I’ve been seeing. Bossy is penalized because he is being compared to Gretzky and Lemieux (you know, two of the top 4 players ever). Ovechkin’s trophy would be completely empty if he had to beat out those two players season after season. Give Bossy a break. He has the highest ppg in history, outside those two. The guy had 9 straight 50 goal seasons (five 60 goal campaigns!) before bowing out due to a bad back and knees. It took him less than 5 shots to pot a goal for his entire career. This guy is so incredible and I just don’t get why Ovechkin is given extra credit for having no competition for his Rockets while Bossy is dumped on because he had to compete with The Great One, Super Mario and a slew of other legends.

Bossy is an all time great player, let alone goal scorer. To compare Stamkos in any way is simply laughable and really shows how weak Ovechkin’s competition is.

You can't prove that OV's trophy case would be empty so that's a weak excuse. Brett Hull won rockets competing against Gretzky and Lemieux and put up 86 goals and 70 another 2x. So why should we "give Bossy a break"?

As has been pointed out a million times. Bossy's PPG and GPG are so high because he only played his prime years, all in the highest scoring era in history. Every player in history declined, Bossy would have too. You keep mentioning his 50 goal seasons. 50 goals wasn't anything special in the 80s.

At the end of the day, if you want to be the GOAT you have to beat your competition. Bossy didn't, that's too bad for him. Stop trying to detract from OV's greatness because Bossy wasn't good enough.

 

[deckercky]

This is an example of the same argument I’ve been seeing. Bossy is penalized because he is being compared to Gretzky and Lemieux (you know, two of the top 4 players ever). Ovechkin’s trophy would be completely empty if he had to beat out those two players season after season. Give Bossy a break. He has the highest ppg in history, outside those two. The guy had 9 straight 50 goal seasons (five 60 goal campaigns!) before bowing out due to a bad back and knees. It took him less than 5 shots to pot a goal for his entire career. This guy is so incredible and I just don’t get why Ovechkin is given extra credit for having no competition for his Rockets while Bossy is dumped on because he had to compete with The Great One, Super Mario and a slew of other legends.

Bossy is an all time great player, let alone goal scorer. To compare Stamkos in any way is simply laughable and really shows how weak Ovechkin’s competition is.

As I mentioned, even dropping Gretzky and his linemates from the equation (Lemieux's goal scoring didn't go crazy until the year after Bossy retired), Bossy only goes up to five scoring titles, retiring at 30.

The consecutive 50 goal seasons is a fun round number to look at, but there was a season where he was 8th in scoring and scored 50 goals. There has been a similar number of 40 goal scorers per year through Ovechkin's career to what there were 50 goal scorers throughout Bossy's career.

Bossy is an all time great goal scorer. He's just probably not top 5 - falling somewhere 6-10.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Mike Bossy > everyone else (goal scoring ability)
Ovie is relatively trash compared to Bossy. (you can throw your Ovie awards, don't care)

Without Bossy's injury, he would of scored in the range of 900-1000 career goals in the NHL.
When he was healthy Mike scored 53,69,51,68,64,60,51,58,61 goals in just 689 games, respectively.

Bossy is and always will be the greatest goal scorer ever to play ice hockey,
but...so many seems to forget his ability to pass the puck as well,
not to mention his high hockey IQ.

Yet he got torn a new one by Gretzky every year.

 

[Panthera]

I agree that more seasons would see a decline in numbers (though most around here pretend it won’t happen with Crosby’s PPG or that Ovechkin will keep potting 50 until he’s 40).

But don’t forget, he was fifth quickest to 400 points. Fourth quickest to 500 and 600. Then only behind Gretzky and Lemieux from 700 points all the way through 1100 points and then retirement.

I’m pretty confident with a better back and knees, this guy would still have no lower than the 4th highest ppg all time and 800 regular season goals.

Yeah I'm sure he would be pretty high up there had it not been for the injuries that ended his career, he was certainly an amazing player and played in the right era to put up big numbers. Don't want to give the impression I don't think he was incredible or anything, he certainly was. I just see the "wow, look at the GPG!" arguments more often than the opposing "80s sucked anyway everyone scored 50 every year" ones so I'm more inclined to argue against the former than the latter (...even though the latter is dumber)

 

[Video Nasty]

Some good points here and there but mostly strawman arguments.

Nowhere did I say he was the “GOAT” (notice the obsession with this word in sports talk lately that just gets tossed around without much critical thought). The original point of this thread was to comment on the disrespect and plain ignorance when it comes to Bossy.

I should have kept Ovechkin’s name out of it because man, did people ravenously leap on that to defend their lord’s honor (never mind that I also love Ovechkin and defend him plenty in other threads). I mentioned him because it’s no coincidence that around the time Ovechkin passed Bossy’s career goal total is when I began noticing the snipe shots here and there, and they’ve been growing.

Everyone keeps telling me gpg/ppg will drop with more games played....no really??! I’m not all that convinced that his ppg would be any lower than 5th all time even if he played another 500 games and scored only 500 points (do the math, he’d be at 1.299 ppg instead of 1.497). I’ll do him a disservice and continue being insanely conservative with my projections to prove my point. Let’s say he scores 227 goals in those 500 games (.454 gpg compared to .762 prior lol). That gives him 800 goals in 1252 games or a career gpg of .639 in 1252 games. Second only to Lemieux for players after the 1920s.

What do people say to that?