The Great Dale Weise Debate (& other ex-Hawks) volume 3

[Pez68]

Yeah but that's not on Stan. That's on Q. We also have no idea what conversations are happening behind closed doors. Stan may be making Q fully aware of what they are trying to do, and Q is not on board... I can see that. Unfortunately, I think there's an ongoing battle between the two in regards to how this team should play and be constructed. It goes back as far as the Barry Smith as a "PP consultant" several years ago... It's obvious Q is extremely stubborn.

You look around the NHL, and it's very obvious Stan wants this team to be constructed and play like the other successful teams. And he has been bringing in the personnel to play that way.

This team is going to suck again next year.

 

[ColdSteel2]

Yeah, I mean, nothing is changing at this point. We already know our players usually play the same or better after they leave here. We already know Q’s system isn’t working. We already know although our young talent is pretty strong, overall, the roster lacks talent. We already know Q and Stan are coming back.

So we’re just waiting for Stan to make miracles happen in the offseason and Q to change his system to best utilize the talent we do have.

Stan needs to untether himself from Q, which will not be easy to do at this point. The Crawford injury probably made Stan look worse than Q. I don’t think it should have, but it seems like it did. So he has to have a phenomenal offseason.

 

[ChiHawks10]

Yeah but that's not on Stan. That's on Q. We also have no idea what conversations are happening behind closed doors. Stan may be making Q fully aware of what they are trying to do, and Q is not on board... I can see that. Unfortunately, I think there's an ongoing battle between the two in regards to how this team should play and be constructed. It goes back as far as the Barry Smith as a "PP consultant" several years ago... It's obvious Q is extremely stubborn.

You look around the NHL, and it's very obvious Stan wants this team to be constructed and play like the other successful teams. And he has been bringing in the personnel to play that way.

But has a coach that refuses to play that way. It's maddening.

 

[ClydeLee]

The only chance Q has of not being a liability to the team next year is hopefully the performance of some teams in this year's playoffs. Like how could he not look at what guys like Cassidy, Gallant, Cooper, and Sullivan have been able to accomplish so far this year.

We can only hope he's watching those teams, seeing the systems they have, and going "maybe I can implement some of that into next year's roster". I don't imagine that being the case, but he admittedly did try to switch to a more modern system this season, just one without all the bells and whistles of the cup contending teams. So maybe, just maybe, he can allow the system to grow and adapt a bit more.

Again, I doubt it. But time will ultimately tell.

Other than Gallant, those are stacked teams in most peoples evaluations. Yet even people on here complaining about Q's system say oh it only works if the team is stacked, would those coaches be great if that wasn't just clearly the case with their rosters?

 

[CallMeShaft]

Other than Gallant, those are stacked teams in most peoples evaluations. Yet even people on here complaining about Q's system say oh it only works if the team is stacked, would those coaches be great if that wasn't just clearly the case with their rosters?

Sullivan has had little help on the back end. Didn't the Pens win last year without Letang? Sullivan managed to make a guy like Trevor Daley into a big enough asset on defense. Without A+ coaching, Pens don't win it all last year.

Cassidy has a stacked roster as well, but he's been able to have a good system in place that has helped Chara regain his form and helped guys like McAvoy be a difference maker at the age of 20 (he started the season at 19).

Cooper also has a stacked roster, but there was an article on the Athletic comparing the systems that the Hawks had this season to that of the Bolts. That article pointed out just how advanced Tampa's system and structure is in comparison to ours. That if Q had taken just a few important details from Tampa's setup, that the Hawks would've performed a hell of a lot better. Really interesting read.

 

[Pez68]

Other than Gallant, those are stacked teams in most peoples evaluations. Yet even people on here complaining about Q's system say oh it only works if the team is stacked, would those coaches be great if that wasn't just clearly the case with their rosters?

Brian Dumoulin
Matt Hunwick
Kris Letang
Olli Maatta
James Oleksiak
Chad Ruhwedel
Justin Schultz

Brandon Carlo
Zdeno Chara
Matt Grzelcyk
Nick Holden
Torey Krug
Charlie McAvoy
Adam McQuaid
Kevan Miller

Justin Braun
Brent Burns
Dylan DeMelo
Brendon Dillon
Paul Martin
Joakim Ryan
Marc-Edouard Vlasic

What about those defenses says "stacked" to you?

Vegas is an even bigger collection of nobodies and career 3rd pairing guys... It's amazing that so many teams are able to make their defensemen work.... Hell, one of the teams left is making their defense work with a guy that Q wouldn't even consistently start. Yet, he's playing top 4 minutes.

 

[Blue Liner]

Sullivan has had little help on the back end. Didn't the Pens win last year without Letang? Sullivan managed to make a guy like Trevor Daley into a big enough asset on defense. Without A+ coaching, Pens don't win it all last year.

Cassidy has a stacked roster as well, but he's been able to have a good system in place that has helped Chara regain his form and helped guys like McAvoy be a difference maker at the age of 20 (he started the season at 19).

Cooper also has a stacked roster, but there was an article on the Athletic comparing the systems that the Hawks had this season to that of the Bolts. That article pointed out just how advanced Tampa's system and structure is in comparison to ours. That if Q had taken just a few important details from Tampa's setup, that the Hawks would've performed a hell of a lot better. Really interesting read.

I think I missed this. When was it, approximately? Or a link? I'd like to read that.

 

[CallMeShaft]

I think I missed this. When was it, approximately? Or a link? I'd like to read that.

Tracking the Hawks: The Blackhawks could learn something...

 

[Blue Liner]

Tracking the Hawks: The Blackhawks could learn something...

Thank you, sir.

EDIT: Yeah, I did miss this. That was an excellent read.

 

[ClydeLee]

Brian Dumoulin
Matt Hunwick
Kris Letang
Olli Maatta
James Oleksiak
Chad Ruhwedel
Justin Schultz

Brandon Carlo
Zdeno Chara
Matt Grzelcyk
Nick Holden
Torey Krug
Charlie McAvoy
Adam McQuaid
Kevan Miller

Justin Braun
Brent Burns
Dylan DeMelo
Brendon Dillon
Paul Martin
Joakim Ryan
Marc-Edouard Vlasic

What about those defenses says "stacked" to you?

Vegas is an even bigger collection of nobodies and career 3rd pairing guys... It's amazing that so many teams are able to make their defensemen work.... Hell, one of the teams left is making their defense work with a guy that Q wouldn't even consistently start. Yet, he's playing top 4 minutes.

The teams are stacked... they all run 4 lines and are strong that way.

Btw, the top 4 icetime dmen for Caps even in these playoffs are Niskanen, Orlov, Carlson, and Orpik. Kempny got more time in game 2 and 4 I think but each other he has been below Orpik in their d roles. Theres issues with his play the same that was here. Trots is gonna be that nitpicker and over love a vet just as near any coach does

 

[BK]

Tracking the Hawks: The Blackhawks could learn something...

Thanks. The article is just what a lot of us have been talking about and how the team't systems are flawed. This is on Q.

 

[CallMeShaft]

Tracking the Hawks: The Blackhawks could learn something...

If anyone is interested in reading this article who doesn't have a subscription to the Athletic, you can download their app, sign in with an email address, and get 5 free articles a month. Just hit this link and that app should open automatically, at least on ios.

It is a very interesting article. Very in-depth.

 

[Fortyfives]

Sullivan has had little help on the back end. Didn't the Pens win last year without Letang? Sullivan managed to make a guy like Trevor Daley into a big enough asset on defense. Without A+ coaching, Pens don't win it all last year.

Cassidy has a stacked roster as well, but he's been able to have a good system in place that has helped Chara regain his form and helped guys like McAvoy be a difference maker at the age of 20 (he started the season at 19).

Cooper also has a stacked roster, but there was an article on the Athletic comparing the systems that the Hawks had this season to that of the Bolts. That article pointed out just how advanced Tampa's system and structure is in comparison to ours. That if Q had taken just a few important details from Tampa's setup, that the Hawks would've performed a hell of a lot better. Really interesting read.

Can you link that article. I have an athletic subscription. Never mind I see you linked it above.

 

[Teemu]

They will not be a dump and chase team

 

[Pez68]

The teams are stacked... they all run 4 lines and are strong that way.

Btw, the top 4 icetime dmen for Caps even in these playoffs are Niskanen, Orlov, Carlson, and Orpik. Kempny got more time in game 2 and 4 I think but each other he has been below Orpik in their d roles. Theres issues with his play the same that was here. Trots is gonna be that nitpicker and over love a vet just as near any coach does

Haven't watched much of the series have you? Orpik and Kempny have been playing almost identical minutes... yes. This is true. The difference is, Kempny is playing more at even strength than Orpik. Orpik is Washington's top PKer, to the tune of 4+ minutes a game. Which is the only reason their TOI is close.

Bottom line, Kempny is their #4.

 

[ClydeLee]

Haven't watched much of the series have you? Orpik and Kempny have been playing almost identical minutes... yes. This is true. The difference is, Kempny is playing more at even strength than Orpik. Orpik is Washington's top PKer, to the tune of 4+ minutes a game. Which is the only reason their TOI is close.

Bottom line, Kempny is their #4.

I watched bits of every game, seen a lot of the same plays up and down and see Carlson playing plenty without him with Orpik too but Kempny probably does fir the #4 role as that fit now.

I keep hoping he does proove to be a force but I see the same issue.

Othernews, people can continue to read into arguments anyway they want as Panarin finishes pointless the final 3 games but still had 7 points in 6 games. I'm sure those holdouts who will want to bash him will continue to call him a playoff bust like people have called Ovi bizarely for years.

 

[Pez68]

The Caps started to key on him after the first couple games. Take him away as a threat and Columbus is pretty awful. Not much Panarin could do with that supporting cast.

I agree a bit on Kempny. He's more or less the same player be was here. The point, I think, is that he has a role he can fill on pretty much any NHL team. He is a solid option at #4. And the coach couldn't even find a role for him as a 5 or 6 most nights.

 

[DisgruntledHawkFan]

Yeah but that's not on Stan. That's on Q. We also have no idea what conversations are happening behind closed doors. Stan may be making Q fully aware of what they are trying to do, and Q is not on board... I can see that. Unfortunately, I think there's an ongoing battle between the two in regards to how this team should play and be constructed. It goes back as far as the Barry Smith as a "PP consultant" several years ago... It's obvious Q is extremely stubborn.

You look around the NHL, and it's very obvious Stan wants this team to be constructed and play like the other successful teams. And he has been bringing in the personnel to play that way.

This team is going to suck again next year.

It is partly on Stan. He's been giving Q superior but different options since 14.

I said it after we re-signed Handzus after 13. I'm fine with it if he's properly utilized. I don't think he will be. History shows I was right about that.

Five years later the thirty year old rail roader with an associate's degree shouldn't have been that far ahead on the curve compared to a NHL general manager with a couple cup rings.

If Q is good enough of a coach to keep despite philosophical differences then give him the pieces he'd best use instead of the guys you brought in.

If he's not he should be gone. This is more McDouche PR department making hockey decisions IMO.

Rocky is a hands off owner who was willing to spend money to make it. If PR people are making important decisions he'll just be spending money. I've always felt Rocky got too much credit for being this great owner. He's just not the dinosaur his father was and this team ran into a fastball and cranked it 400 feet.

Make personnel decisions with a unified vision for what this team is and should be. Until that happens we're just not good enough to straddle that line.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

The Caps started to key on him after the first couple games. Take him away as a threat and Columbus is pretty awful. Not much Panarin could do with that supporting cast.

I agree a bit on Kempny. He's more or less the same player be was here. The point, I think, is that he has a role he can fill on pretty much any NHL team. He is a solid option at #4. And the coach couldn't even find a role for him as a 5 or 6 most nights.

Kempny is a mediocre #5

Last night he was 5th in TOI among Cap defenders with a measly 14:28 TOI

That fact your celebrating such a meager talent as some vindication for your Q hate is laughable

 

[BK]

Kempny is a mediocre #5

Last night he was 5th in TOI among Cap defenders with a measly 14:28 TOI

That fact your celebrating such a meager talent as some vindication for your Q hate is laughable

Again, did you even watch the series? Kempny was solid-to-good the entire series and averaged 16:51 in ice time. His ice time shot up when there was more 5v5 time. He was given even zone starts so he was not sheltered at all.

 

[BobbyJet]

Didn't watch much of Columbus vs Caps but I do see that AP scored twice in 6 games, with 4 assists, all on the PP, and a -4 which is tied for worst on the team.

His stats would suggest that Panarin was a difference maker in one game only .... but overall not great?

Any comments from folks who watched all of this series?

 

[RayP]

Again, did you even watch the series? Kempny was solid-to-good the entire series and averaged 16:51 in ice time. His ice time shot up when there was more 5v5 time. He was given even zone starts so he was not sheltered at all.

I’d be surprised if he’s watched even 5 minutes of game time of that series.

I’ve watched 2-3 games and the only times he’s stood out to me is in a positive light.

 

[BK]

Didn't watch much of Columbus vs Caps but I do see that AP scored twice in 6 games, with 4 assists, all on the PP, and a -4 which is tied for worst on the team.

His stats would suggest that Panarin was a difference maker in one game only .... but overall not great?

Any comments from folks who watched all of this series?

Panarin created all series. The last two games the Caps really keyed in on him and he was not given much support. He did not turn into the one trick pony that we saw at times with the Hawks but the puck did not go in at the end. It seemed like he played the last 5-6 minutes of game six.

-4 was not on him like BWC seems to be implying. He did not have horrendous turnovers or things like that.

Was he perfect? No but he led the BJs in scoring and Holtby got hot.

Bold: I am not understanding this comment. He had 3 multi point games? I am not questioning your logic but I am just not understanding the observation.

 

[Pez68]

Didn't watch much of Columbus vs Caps but I do see that AP scored twice in 6 games, with 4 assists, all on the PP, and a -4 which is tied for worst on the team.

His stats would suggest that Panarin was a difference maker in one game only .... but overall not great?

Any comments from folks who watched all of this series?

He was their best player the entire series... Caps just keyed in on him and shut him down after the first few games. He's on an island on that team. He is literally the only elite forward they have, and they don't have a single top-tier center.

 

[BobbyJet]

Panarin created all series. The last two games the Caps really keyed in on him and he was not given much support. He did not turn into the one trick pony that we saw at times with the Hawks but the puck did not go in at the end. It seemed like he played the last 5-6 minutes of game six.

-4 was not on him like BWC seems to be implying. He did not have horrendous turnovers or things like that.

Was he perfect? No but he led the BJs in scoring and Holtby got hot.

Bold: I am not understanding this comment. He had 3 multi point games? I am not questioning your logic but I am just not understanding the observation.

Just smells the same as 2017 to me.