The Great Cam Barker Appreciation thread (And former Hawks talk vol 7)

[ClydeLee]

Massive is a streatch

- Kempy had success in Wash as top 4
- Rutta has been ok 6/7 in TB
- Forsling has emerged as top 4 in Florida
- Joker is well on his way to be top 4 though his career would be best if he could get the hell out of there

That is list of D the Hawks have given up on who have found success elsewhere ,, I guess you can include Holl in Toronto but that was one of those guys find way to get on track and make it down line in career thus living up to potential stories

Clendening , Dahlbeck , Johns , Paliota , Olsen and others all had very limited to no success in NHL

I wouldn't say we gave up on TVR considering he was taken in expansion draft but Stan deserves alot of shit for not moving him ourselves since he had value

He used TVR as the incentive of what Vegas would take so they would also take Kruger in a tradedor nothing.

Also, because Rozi was suckerpunched and career ended on the concussion and wasn't eligible as their player. They had to keep TVR exposed, having a never beyond 3 pairing Dman is no negative in any rational way. That you even ignore how he was a factor in moving out other deals is silly to beyond thought to see that as a failure of a expansion value

 

[hawksrule]

I can’t say I’ve kept up with Forsling, but if he’s any good then I was wrong about him. I wasn’t impressed.

 

[RayP]

I can’t say I’ve kept up with Forsling, but if he’s any good then I was wrong about him. I wasn’t impressed.

Same. He seemed ok at everything and good/great at nothing.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Forsling really stepped up for Panthers in 2nd half of season when they lost Ekblad

 

[BobbyJet]

Forsling really stepped up for Panthers in 2nd half of season when they lost Ekblad

If by stepped up you mean he looks like he belongs then I agree but let's not get carried away. Forsling has lots of promise as a PP guy and he no longer gets overwhelmed physically but he is hardly the Dman you claim him to be. It is no surprise that he would do well with the man advantage but that describes many NHL Dmen these days. Dam, even Gus is in that category.

I know you love to diss Stan (for good reason I might add) and build-up Q as a coach but don't exaggerate.

 

[ClydeLee]

If by stepped up you mean he looks like he belongs then I agree but let's not get carried away. Forsling has lots of promise as a PP guy and he no longer gets overwhelmed physically but he is hardly the Dman you claim him to be. It is no surprise that he would do well with the man advantage but that describes many NHL Dmen these days. Dam, even Gus is in that category.

I know you love to diss Stan (for good reason I might add) and build-up Q as a coach but don't exaggerate.

Pp guy? What are you talking about. He's still as he was here under Q a heavy dzone PK heavy guy. He had just 10 secs less than Weeger and 2 secs avg a game less than Ekblad on their pK. He hardly played PP at all. His value is and always was that he's a great zone gap player. He's not physical, but fits Qs zone system well and limits chances and high quality shots by doing the cut off passing lanes style Q loves

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Its pretty clear who didn't watch any Panther games with these poor takes on Forsling

 

[x Tame Impala]

And the guys that haven’t given up on…..


I’ll cut them some slack because for a while we were so lucky to have Keith, Seabrook, and Hammer in their primes all at the same time so we weren’t investing too many high picks on defenseman…. But man, you’d think we’d at least hit on a solid second or third pairing guy at least but even that really hasn’t been the case.

Quick glance at the Hawks drafting history from 2011 until 2018 when Boqvist and Beaudin were drafted. Hawks drafted about 24 defenseman and the success rate is…not good. Here’s hoping Boqvist, Mitchell, and Beaudin pan out. The Hawks are either not developing D men effectively or they’re making poor draft selections. We shouldn’t have been this poorly off in our D cupboard.

Obviously being a playoff team with many deep runs over a 9 year period it’s not exactly prime-pickings but it’s still very possible to turn 2nd and 3rd rounders into regular NHLers. The Hawks were not successfully able to replace any of our Core-D throughout our run and now we’re probably going to have a D corps totally up in the air unless we overpay for Hamilton or Jones.

I really wonder how much input McD had in roster decisions because (in hindsight) the moves made on a season by season basis for the most part have slowly made us a worse and worse team. Poor decision making and not realizing we reached the end of the line in 2017.

Beaudin, Mitchell, and Boqvist are all still really young and it might take longer than we’d like for them to develop. I’ve liked what I’ve seen in stretches from all of them and I think they can do it. BUT in the next season or two if they’re not making clear progress I would hope Bowman gets the boot and Wirtz goes with a different front office. For years we’ve been trading away Dmen and not drafting any D to replace them…and we suck because of it.

 

[Pez68]

How many of those D management "gave up on" played under Q?

 

[ClydeLee]

Quick glance at the Hawks drafting history from 2011 until 2018 when Boqvist and Beaudin were drafted. Hawks drafted about 24 defenseman and the success rate is…not good. Here’s hoping Boqvist, Mitchell, and Beaudin pan out. The Hawks are either not developing D men effectively or they’re making poor draft selections. We shouldn’t have been this poorly off in our D cupboard.

Obviously being a playoff team with many deep runs over a 9 year period it’s not exactly prime-pickings but it’s still very possible to turn 2nd and 3rd rounders into regular NHLers. The Hawks were not successfully able to replace any of our Core-D throughout our run and now we’re probably going to have a D corps totally up in the air unless we overpay for Hamilton or Jones.

I really wonder how much input McD had in roster decisions because (in hindsight) the moves made on a season by season basis for the most part have slowly made us a worse and worse team. Poor decision making and not realizing we reached the end of the line in 2017.

Beaudin, Mitchell, and Boqvist are all still really young and it might take longer than we’d like for them to develop. I’ve liked what I’ve seen in stretches from all of them and I think they can do it. BUT in the next season or two if they’re not making clear progress I would hope Bowman gets the boot and Wirtz goes with a different front office. For years we’ve been trading away Dmen and not drafting any D to replace them…and we suck because of it.

There's like 3/4 D drafted in that range that were even 2nd rounders at the highest until Joker/Boqvist/Beaudin

3rd rounders and what beyond have at max 15% Chances of being even just an NHLer?

 

[x Tame Impala]

There's like 3/4 D drafted in that range that were even 2nd rounders at the highest until Joker/Boqvist/Beaudin

3rd rounders and what beyond have at max 15% Chances of being even just an NHLer?

2010: John’s (60th) & Holl (54th)
2011: Clendening (36th), Paliotta (70th), Dahlbeck (79th)
2012: Fournier (48th)
2013: Dahlstrom (51st)
2015: Gilbert (91st)
2016: Krys (45th)
2017: Jokiharju (29th) & Mitchell (57th)
2018: Boqvist (8th) & Beaudin (27th)

Excluding Mitchell, Boqvist, and Beaudin, the Hawks are 0/10 with drafting a D man in the first 3 rounds.

 

[Hawkaholic]

2010: John’s (60th) & Holl (54th)
2011: Clendening (36th), Paliotta (70th), Dahlbeck (79th)
2012: Fournier (48th)
2013: Dahlstrom (51st)
2015: Gilbert (91st)
2016: Krys (45th)
2017: Jokiharju (29th) & Mitchell (57th)
2018: Boqvist (8th) & Beaudin (27th)

Excluding Mitchell, Boqvist, and Beaudin, the Hawks are 0/10 with drafting a D man in the first 3 rounds.

Why are you excluding those 3, but not Joker? Because he isn't here anymore?

 

[x Tame Impala]

Why are you excluding those 3, but not Joker? Because he isn't here anymore?

Yes. In terms of the Hawks drafting D corps-replacements, Jokiharju ended up not being a solution.

 

[Hawkaholic]

Yes. In terms of the Hawks drafting D corps-replacements, Jokiharju ended up not being a solution.

OK, just misunderstood your post. Thought you were saying they just suck at drafting Dmen (which isn't not true)

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

2010: John’s (60th) & Holl (54th)
2011: Clendening (36th), Paliotta (70th), Dahlbeck (79th)
2012: Fournier (48th)
2013: Dahlstrom (51st)
2015: Gilbert (91st)
2016: Krys (45th)
2017: Jokiharju (29th) & Mitchell (57th)
2018: Boqvist (8th) & Beaudin (27th)

Excluding Mitchell, Boqvist, and Beaudin, the Hawks are 0/10 with drafting a D man in the first 3 rounds.

That is alot of wasted assets and poor scouting

 

[ClydeLee]

2010: John’s (60th) & Holl (54th)
2011: Clendening (36th), Paliotta (70th), Dahlbeck (79th)
2012: Fournier (48th)
2013: Dahlstrom (51st)
2015: Gilbert (91st)
2016: Krys (45th)
2017: Jokiharju (29th) & Mitchell (57th)
2018: Boqvist (8th) & Beaudin (27th)

Excluding Mitchell, Boqvist, and Beaudin, the Hawks are 0/10 with drafting a D man in the first 3 rounds.

2nd rounders have a 25% chance of success, like even being NHLers.

2 hits in Johns/Holl(scouting hit development/assest management failure)

1 7th d guy in Clendening. You can count him as a failure. Then Krys/Fournier failures.

2/5 in 2nd rounders giving Mitchell a TBD.

Its not dreadful but also NOT a lot of assests wasted. They didn't draft Dmen much enough high at all. That's the main thing I think should be concluded. And their forwards were more often the choice taken.

 

[x Tame Impala]

2nd rounders have a 25% chance of success, like even being NHLers.

2 hits in Johns/Holl(scouting hit development/assest management failure)

1 7th d guy in Clendening. You can count him as a failure. Then Krys/Fournier failures.

2/5 in 2nd rounders giving Mitchell a TBD.

Its not dreadful but also NOT a lot of assests wasted. They didn't draft Dmen much enough high at all. That's the main thing I think should be concluded. And their forwards were more often the choice taken.

Johns had concussion issues but regardless he was traded away and not a contributor to our defense. Holl never signed an ELC with us and is now a low level Dman on the Leafs, it a team known for defensive prowess.

Again, the Hawks have either failed to draft and develop good defenseman for our future, or these semi-promising D men were traded away for next to nothing. Not good. It’s a major indictment against the direction(s) this team has went over the years

 

[RayP]

Johns had concussion issues but regardless he was traded away and not a contributor to our defense. Holl never signed an ELC with us and is now a low level Dman on the Leafs, it a team known for defensive prowess.

Again, the Hawks have either failed to draft and develop good defenseman for our future, or these semi-promising D men were traded away for next to nothing. Not good. It’s a major indictment against the direction(s) this team has went over the years

I don’t see how anyone can argue otherwise at this point.

Not to mention it wouldn’t be a complete shock if Mitchell and Beaudin ended up flaming out just like a lot of the guys on that list. Boqvist is the only guy we have right now that I would say for certain can hang at the NHL level, but even he has injury issues.

 

[Pez68]

It's almost like drafting and developing defensemen is hard, or something.

 

[Hattrick Kane]

It's almost like drafting and developing defensemen is hard, or something.

It’s become common place around here to think that 2nd and 3rd rounders are guarantees.

If the majority of the defensemen drafted by the Hawks are in the 2nd round to the seventh round, it’s not wasted assets. You’re basically swinging in the dark hoping you hit on something.

I think drafting in 2nd round yields a consistent NHLer like 30% of the time. Odds are not on your side, and the Hawks weren’t drafting high to start with until recently.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

It's almost like drafting and developing defensemen is hard, or something.

Other teams around the league seem to not find it as hard

Also this organization before Stanley took over was doing pretty good at the drafting and developing guys

Keith
Seabrook
Hjalmarsson
Byfuglien
Wisniewski

All successful NHL defenders drafted and developed by previous regimes

Hell Kukkonen and Babchuk even as disappointments still were better at NHL level than Stanley's picks

It’s become common place around here to think that 2nd and 3rd rounders are guarantees.

If the majority of the defensemen drafted by the Hawks are in the 2nd round to the seventh round, it’s not wasted assets. You’re basically swinging in the dark hoping you hit on something.

I think drafting in 2nd round yields a consistent NHLer like 30% of the time. Odds are not on your side, and the Hawks weren’t drafting high to start with until recently.

No one thinks 2nd round picks are guarantees ,, But failing with every 2nd and 3rd round pick is not at all good

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

We should also not forget that Bowman was high on

Ivan Vishnevskiy (Acq in Ladd trade)
David Rundblad
Ville Pokka (Acq in Leddy trade)

None of whom panned out

Again further proof of issues with this regime and its ability or lack there of to identify young defensive talent and development issues

 

[ClydeLee]

Other teams around the league seem to not find it as hard

Also this organization before Stanley took over was doing pretty good at the drafting and developing guys

Keith
Seabrook
Hjalmarsson
Byfuglien
Wisniewski

All successful NHL defenders drafted and developed by previous regimes

Hell Kukkonen and Babchuk even as disappointments still were better at NHL level than Stanley's picks



No one thinks 2nd round picks are guarantees ,, But failing with every 2nd and 3rd round pick is not at all good

Numerous first rounders on D, that's what prior orgs gave him and busts in 1st rounders too. But 1 real deep find by the Tallon regime was Hjalmarsson, that was it. Like entirely, also Kruger but beyond that and the TK picks the turn out was all bad.

This last point, I dont get your views logical.

Of course Babchuk was better, he should be he was a 1st round pick the only talent that should ever turn out.

If the Hawks didn't draft Danualt, McNeil, Hartman, Teuvo, or anyone else at forward with their 1st but at D, they you absolutely should expected those guys to be nhlers. You should be on them for not drafting the position vs 15% odds not turning out in your favor.

 

[Hattrick Kane]

Numerous first rounders on D, that's what prior orgs gave him and busts in 1st rounders too. But 1 real deep find by the Tallon regime was Hjalmarsson, that was it. Like entirely, also Kruger but beyond that and the TK picks the turn out was all bad.

This last point, I dont get your views logical.

Of course Babchuk 2nd better, he should be he was a 1st round pick the only talent that should ever turn out.

If the Hawks didn't draft Danualt, McNeil, Hartman, Teuvo, or anyone else at forward with their 1st but at D, they you absolutely should expected those guys to be nhlers. You should be on them for not drafting the position vs 15% odds not turning out in your favor.

This is the correct way of looking at it. But I mean, our top three was set for years, we needed forward depth way more.

You can find three or four good defensemen after the first round, but it’s highly unlikely. Think of all the defensemen who bust that get drafted. It’s not just the Hawks, it’s literally every team save for a picks occasionally .

You want to see real bad drafting after the first round? Go look at the Avs picks for the past 10 years. That’s real pathetic drafting. Hawks are just fine with where they’re at.

 

[Panzerspitze]

We should also not forget that Bowman was high on

Ivan Vishnevskiy (Acq in Ladd trade)
David Rundblad
Ville Pokka (Acq in Leddy trade)

None of whom panned out

Again further proof of issues with this regime and its ability or lack there of to identify young defensive talent and development issues

Wasn't Rundblad acquired for a 2nd-round pick?